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Peculiar why women were bunched together with minorities. I wonder how the results would look if they were decoupled. I also wonder what their reasoning was in

Peculiar why women were bunched together with minorities. I wonder how the results would look if they were decoupled. I also wonder what their reasoning was in attributing the small effect linking different names to differing response rates to 'implicit bias' was.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Maintain unity within the political coalition.
pcurve 13y ago
The study does break it down further, and the result actually made feel ill. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID2427725_code488996.pdf?abstractid=2063742&mirid=1 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID2427725_code... Go to Page 55+ Things aren't so bad if you're white female. If you're hispanic female, you even enjoy advantages in field of science. But the numbers for Chinese and Indian (both genders) look absolutely atrocious. I'm seeing on average 30 percentage point difference, but as much as 60%+ in some fields. This is just disturbing.
- monochr 13y ago
  Have you had to deal with the number of Indian or Chinese students trying to push into a program they have no place being in? I get it's the poverty back home that makes them desperate and nothing to do with race, but the one time my former department accepted a Chinese student from mainland China it was a disaster, he was rude, hardly spoke English, his credentials were most likely fake and made the whole thing incredibly unpleasant to everyone with how pushy he was. Needless to say he was kicked out after a year because he kept failing his classes. This isn't racism, this is people not wanting to be scammed.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Isn't biased stereotyping exactly what racism is though? A few bad apples can spoil it for everyone else? "Hey watch the black guy, I was mugged by once...", if you find that sickening, this is quite similar to that.
    - monochr 13y ago
      Only if it's based on race. You must be American since you missed the part where I said it's the _poor_ Indians and Chinese that are desperate and most departments want nothing to do with them. That isn't racism, that is wealth discrimination. By contrast the poor Australians aren't applying to post graduate programs in mathematics, they are too busy being drunk at the footy, so they are not a group anyone had to worry about at my university. But if one of them showed up with fake credentials they would be as disruptive to the department as that Chinese student was, and would fly out just as quickly.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        I doubt this Chinese student was poor if he could get convincing enough fake qualifications; he was probably middle class with city hukou and resourceful parents, but just didn't apply himself because his parents were always able to solve his problems for him (also, very likely an only child). This is actually quite common in China; the poor Chinese students are the ones that have to work their asses off because their parents can't give them any special advantages. I have my own biases, but having lived in China for so long, they aren't based on ethnicity anymore (e.g. watch that guy in starbucks wearing farmer clothes, he might try to steal my computer).
        monochr 13y ago
        He might have been rich by Chinese standards but he was still poor by Western ones. He seemed to be vastly more interested in finding a job outside the university so he could stay in the country than actually trying to study for the classes he was taking. And again note, I didn't say he was lazy, as far as we could tell he was taking a dozen interviews a week for work. He was however a complete academic deadbeat and terrible investment for the university. In short, we got scammed, someone came over on a student visa, only to try their hardest to migrate permanently without adding anything of value to the university and group he was meant to be working in.
        seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
    "We accepted one Chinese student and he was terrible, therefore all Chinese students are terrible" is exactly racism. Racism isn't just marching in Klan rallies and voting for David Duke and "negroes need not apply". In the modern western world, that's the weakest, most ineffectual racism, because it's easy to call out and despise. The real, insidious, devastating racism is thoughtful, well-meaning people coming up with carefully-considered justifications to stereotype huge groups of people. It's superficially very rational--black people are statistically more likely more likely to commit crimes, so doesn't it make sense for the police to keep a closer eye on them? Terrorists tend to be Muslims, so isn't it safer if we don't let Muslims near anything dangerous? But a lot of local, short-term "rational" decisions can add up to a monstrous and oppressive society.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- closed 13y ago
  As a graduate student I receive spam from addresses with Indian names a few times each month. I know from speaking to my advisor that the level of spam he receives is much greater, and often contains names that sound foreign to him. Even worse, these emails are somewhat generic in ways that resemble the form letter in this study. Normally, when a prospective grad student is interested in working with you, at least in the field I'm in (psychology), they mention something about your interests when contacting, rather then a generic form-looking email. I'm not saying that this makes not responding to emails from minority students okay. I wonder to what degree professors might see something that is not personalized, from a name which is "similar" to other names they associate with spam, and decide not to respond. Andy Gelman has a good example of the kind of spam that comes in: http://andrewgelman.com/2014/04/05/bizarre-academic-spam/ http://andrewgelman.com/2014/04/05/bizarre-academic-spam/
  - noobermin 13y ago
    The fact that these names are considered "similar" to such names ("Juan Gonzales, but "Claire Smith" too?) are shady but "Brad Anderson" and "Steven Smith" are worth responding too basically demonstrates the authors' point. Edit: Before I'm further downflagged by people who haven't at least skimmed the paper, I should point out that I'm referring to the actual names used in the study, I'm not being racist myself.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- danieltillett 13y ago
  tldr :) Any indication for the reasoning why for this difference?
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Speaking as someone who deals with this often, it might be that the number of requests from Chinese/Indian students is simply overwhelming compared to everyone else, and the professors start putting up subconscious filters. They are also less likely to distinguish gender by Chinese and to a lesser extent Indian names, so we could probably discount gender bias at that point. As for myself, 100% of the students I get requests from are Chinese (being in China, that makes sense), and I have to filter according to the university they are enrolled in (Qinghua > Beijing Normal University). We really miss some gems that way, but those are the breaks.
  - pcurve 13y ago
    "They are also less likely to distinguish gender by Chinese and to a lesser extent Indian names, so we could probably discount gender bias at that point." The study made sure that Indian and Chinese names used had 95-100% successful gender ID rate. See Page 55-60.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      How the heck did they do that without assigning english first names?
- belorn 13y ago
  Thanks for telling where the data was, as it was indeed disturbing but for the complete opposite case. The abstract is just bad science, and it was disturbing to see how much the truth was twisted. Lumping together women and minorities is bad math based on the data they provide. white female has a 1% difference compared to white male, which is within the margin of error given the size of the study. Minority Male compared to minority female seems to show the opposite data, in that minority male is more discriminated against than minority female. So the research found that A), no discrimination against female students, B) male minorities get more discrimination than female minorities, and C) minorities get discriminated compared to caucasians. Compare those finding with the title, and even the abstract.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

Maintain unity within the political coalition.

pcurve 13y ago

The study does break it down further, and the result actually made feel ill. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID2427725_code488996.pdf?abstractid=2063742&mirid=1 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID2427725_code... Go to Page 55+ Things aren't so bad if you're white female. If you're hispanic female, you even enjoy advantages in field of science. But the numbers for Chinese and Indian (both genders) look absolutely atrocious. I'm seeing on average 30 percentage point difference, but as much as 60%+ in some fields. This is just disturbing.

monochr 13y ago
Have you had to deal with the number of Indian or Chinese students trying to push into a program they have no place being in? I get it's the poverty back home that makes them desperate and nothing to do with race, but the one time my former department accepted a Chinese student from mainland China it was a disaster, he was rude, hardly spoke English, his credentials were most likely fake and made the whole thing incredibly unpleasant to everyone with how pushy he was. Needless to say he was kicked out after a year because he kept failing his classes. This isn't racism, this is people not wanting to be scammed.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Isn't biased stereotyping exactly what racism is though? A few bad apples can spoil it for everyone else? "Hey watch the black guy, I was mugged by once...", if you find that sickening, this is quite similar to that.
  - monochr 13y ago
    Only if it's based on race. You must be American since you missed the part where I said it's the _poor_ Indians and Chinese that are desperate and most departments want nothing to do with them. That isn't racism, that is wealth discrimination. By contrast the poor Australians aren't applying to post graduate programs in mathematics, they are too busy being drunk at the footy, so they are not a group anyone had to worry about at my university. But if one of them showed up with fake credentials they would be as disruptive to the department as that Chinese student was, and would fly out just as quickly.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      I doubt this Chinese student was poor if he could get convincing enough fake qualifications; he was probably middle class with city hukou and resourceful parents, but just didn't apply himself because his parents were always able to solve his problems for him (also, very likely an only child). This is actually quite common in China; the poor Chinese students are the ones that have to work their asses off because their parents can't give them any special advantages. I have my own biases, but having lived in China for so long, they aren't based on ethnicity anymore (e.g. watch that guy in starbucks wearing farmer clothes, he might try to steal my computer).
      - monochr 13y ago
        He might have been rich by Chinese standards but he was still poor by Western ones. He seemed to be vastly more interested in finding a job outside the university so he could stay in the country than actually trying to study for the classes he was taking. And again note, I didn't say he was lazy, as far as we could tell he was taking a dozen interviews a week for work. He was however a complete academic deadbeat and terrible investment for the university. In short, we got scammed, someone came over on a student visa, only to try their hardest to migrate permanently without adding anything of value to the university and group he was meant to be working in.
        seanmcdirmid 13y ago
- PhasmaFelis 13y ago
  "We accepted one Chinese student and he was terrible, therefore all Chinese students are terrible" is exactly racism. Racism isn't just marching in Klan rallies and voting for David Duke and "negroes need not apply". In the modern western world, that's the weakest, most ineffectual racism, because it's easy to call out and despise. The real, insidious, devastating racism is thoughtful, well-meaning people coming up with carefully-considered justifications to stereotype huge groups of people. It's superficially very rational--black people are statistically more likely more likely to commit crimes, so doesn't it make sense for the police to keep a closer eye on them? Terrorists tend to be Muslims, so isn't it safer if we don't let Muslims near anything dangerous? But a lot of local, short-term "rational" decisions can add up to a monstrous and oppressive society.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
closed 13y ago
As a graduate student I receive spam from addresses with Indian names a few times each month. I know from speaking to my advisor that the level of spam he receives is much greater, and often contains names that sound foreign to him. Even worse, these emails are somewhat generic in ways that resemble the form letter in this study. Normally, when a prospective grad student is interested in working with you, at least in the field I'm in (psychology), they mention something about your interests when contacting, rather then a generic form-looking email. I'm not saying that this makes not responding to emails from minority students okay. I wonder to what degree professors might see something that is not personalized, from a name which is "similar" to other names they associate with spam, and decide not to respond. Andy Gelman has a good example of the kind of spam that comes in: http://andrewgelman.com/2014/04/05/bizarre-academic-spam/ http://andrewgelman.com/2014/04/05/bizarre-academic-spam/
- noobermin 13y ago
  The fact that these names are considered "similar" to such names ("Juan Gonzales, but "Claire Smith" too?) are shady but "Brad Anderson" and "Steven Smith" are worth responding too basically demonstrates the authors' point. Edit: Before I'm further downflagged by people who haven't at least skimmed the paper, I should point out that I'm referring to the actual names used in the study, I'm not being racist myself.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
danieltillett 13y ago
tldr :) Any indication for the reasoning why for this difference?
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Speaking as someone who deals with this often, it might be that the number of requests from Chinese/Indian students is simply overwhelming compared to everyone else, and the professors start putting up subconscious filters. They are also less likely to distinguish gender by Chinese and to a lesser extent Indian names, so we could probably discount gender bias at that point. As for myself, 100% of the students I get requests from are Chinese (being in China, that makes sense), and I have to filter according to the university they are enrolled in (Qinghua > Beijing Normal University). We really miss some gems that way, but those are the breaks.
- pcurve 13y ago
  "They are also less likely to distinguish gender by Chinese and to a lesser extent Indian names, so we could probably discount gender bias at that point." The study made sure that Indian and Chinese names used had 95-100% successful gender ID rate. See Page 55-60.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    How the heck did they do that without assigning english first names?
belorn 13y ago
Thanks for telling where the data was, as it was indeed disturbing but for the complete opposite case. The abstract is just bad science, and it was disturbing to see how much the truth was twisted. Lumping together women and minorities is bad math based on the data they provide. white female has a 1% difference compared to white male, which is within the margin of error given the size of the study. Minority Male compared to minority female seems to show the opposite data, in that minority male is more discriminated against than minority female. So the research found that A), no discrimination against female students, B) male minorities get more discrimination than female minorities, and C) minorities get discriminated compared to caucasians. Compare those finding with the title, and even the abstract.