5 ms·

Telegram team left Russia and looking for a country to work from

96 points by andreyvit 12y ago

andreyvit 12y ago
Citation from a Facebook post by Pavel Durov (founder of vk.com and Telegram), for those who don't want to open Facebook: --- As you probably know, I am out of Russia. Me and my team of 12 engineers have a temporary HQ in Central Europe, and we are now looking for a permanent base to work from. We are choosing a new home, a country that will allow us to develop our projects with privacy and freedom of speech in mind. Our team includes 6 ACM champions and 6 winners of other programming contests. These guys made it possible for Telegram Messenger to gather 40 million registered users worldwide just within 8 months after its launch. Several members of this team, including my brother, were crucial in making VKontakte what it is today — the only social network that defeated Facebook in an open local market. We are now going to build our next project, a mobile social network. What country or city do you think would suit us best? Please feel free to comment below. To give you an idea of our preferences, we dislike bureaucracy, police states, big governments, wars, socialism and excessive regulation. We like freedoms, strong judicial systems, small governments, free markets, neutrality and civil rights. P.S. If you happen to represent a government that meets our criteria, you are welcome to share ideas with me at durov2016@gmail.com.
- zura 12y ago
  Georgia (eastern Europe) seems like a good fit for those requirements. No bureaucracy, low taxes, cheaper than most central/western European places. One of the most capitalist states in Europe :)
- Bootvis 12y ago
  Switzerland, what else? Words unfortunately spoken by someone from the Netherlands.
  - patrickaljord 12y ago
    I read a year ago that the Netherlands were about to pass big reforms to shrink the welfare state. Did that ever happen?
    - huskyr 12y ago
      More or less. One thing that is happening in the near future is moving the responsibilities for long-term care from the national government to local municipalities, that will probably get less money for it as well.
    - mtrimpe 12y ago
      Also; not really. Small changes on the fringes and generally lowering welfare payouts but nothing too massive, luckily. Firing was made a lot easier in the private sector though; reducing it to essentially at will employment with a forced separation allowance.
  - emsy 12y ago
    Funny, I chose my DigitalOcean VPS to be located in the Netherlands rather than the UK. Freedom comes in various levels.
    - ronaldx 12y ago
      Because you felt that gave you some legal protection, despite the fact that you're using a US-based company? The advantage of locating in the Netherlands is that you get served to Europe a little quicker.
      - emsy 12y ago
        Physical protection, not legal protection.
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    High living costs. There are lots of nice places in Eastern Europe where the living costs are low, the weather nice and the scenery beautiful. And in quite a few (e.g. Romania) the government is too busy stealing stuff to bother about oppressing freedoms, except maybe about elections...
    - vixin 12y ago
      Yes indeed! Beautiful countryside and really excellent internet connections. For example: "Based on Net Index report at the end of first half of 2013, Timișoara has become the city with the highest download speed in the world. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania
    - tomp 12y ago
      > And in quite a few (e.g. Romania) the government is too busy stealing stuff to bother about oppressing freedoms Doesn't that also mean that the government would gladly accept a bribe from a foreign state actor in exchange for suppressing the freedom of the telegram team?!
      - BugBrother 12y ago
        Probably not from Russia, in Romania's case. But it is a point, maybe not worth betting on.
      - StavrosK 12y ago
        If things there are anything like in Greece, the system is corrupt and dysfunctional enough to not care about newfangled problems (there's literally no enforcement of anything limiting online (maybe even offline) freedom here), but not corrupt enough to do egregious/outright illegal things because of bribes.
  - return0 12y ago
    Other than banking secrecy, what other advantages does switzerland have? Most markets and research areas are just as regulated as in the rest of europe (i.e. heavily).
  - lawl 12y ago
    Switzerland is fairly expensive though [0]. Might not be a problem for Pavel Durov, but maybe for his engineers? Anyways I would have expected more than a simple gmail address from someone developing a crypto messenger. A GPG Public Key too much to ask? Otherwise Switzerland is indeed quite a nice play for businesses. Founding a company takes about half an hour. So that should count as fairly unbureaucratic. Plus Google etc. have their Europe headquarter here. [0] Source: I live there.
    - higherpurpose 12y ago
      You're talking about a "crypto messenger" that doesn't have end-to-end encryption enabled by default (and is therefore insecure by default, just like Whatsapp and other apps like that), so maybe you're expecting too much of him. Germany is a good second choice after Switzerland, I think. Iceland would still be my #1 choice for Wikileaks-like companies, but I don't think Telegram is in that situation, and they might prefer a warmer weather anyway.
      - glasz 12y ago
        what makes you think that way about germany?
      - egeozcan 12y ago
        Germany? As an expat in Germany, the amount of bureaucracy here is sucking the life out of me. YMMV, though.
        sdfjkl 12y ago
        As a German expat who moved to the UK to start a business, I second this. Incorporating (a GmbH) in Germany would've been a major nightmare compared to the UK. Not that I'd recommend the UK as a good location at this point.
      - donatzsky 12y ago
        The problem is, the further south you go, the more the red tape tends to pile up.
  - bjelkeman-again 12y ago
    In my family's experience Switzerland can be a quite hard place to be a foreigner though, unless you work in one of the UN "enclaves" in the major cities. And then it is just very expensive.
  - boards2x 12y ago
    Find it strange how people feel free to give advise on things they have no clue about. ie the Swiss only recently voted for a very harsh anti-immigration law, targeting especially Europeans in fact, and more so from the eastern block (prostitution and crime coming from Russia, Bulgaria etc. in big cities), but not limited to. And for the Dutch, please. Dutch hypocrisy and inferiority complex is at its peak. Just the political climate there is enough to put any decent human being off, with such support for the extreme right (Wilders) becoming mainstream, why would anyone want to live or work there, is beyond my understanding.
- huskyr 12y ago
  Iceland was planning on being the 'Switzerland of data freedom' at a certain point, but i'm not quite sure how they're doing right now: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/jul/12/iceland-legal-haven-journalists-immi http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/jul/12/iceland-legal-h...
  - glasz 12y ago
    sheep screwed themselves again: http://m.rte.ie/news/touch//2013/0428/386975-iceland-vote/ http://m.rte.ie/news/touch//2013/0428/386975-iceland-vote/
- c1sc0 12y ago
  Iceland?
  - viraptor 12y ago
    Crazy expensive and the winters can destroy your mood (some friends from abroad could not cope and had to go back home). Probably not the best choice for a long term move unless it's already on your mind.
    - willvarfar 12y ago
      Because Russian winters are warm? They may have experience surviving the winter. (Northerner too)
      - Ihmahr 12y ago
        It is not about the cold, but about the 23 hour darkness for several months. The winters are actually a lot warmer than much of Russia.
  - Herbert2 12y ago
    capital controls.
- camus2 12y ago
  Definetly not France ! I'd suggest Germany(Berlin) or Spain. Great places to leave and cheap.
  - thirdsun 12y ago
    Culture-wise and considering the costs, I'd absolutely agree with Berlin, but keep in mind that the german government sure loves its bureaucracy and regulations.
    - camus2 12y ago
      It cant be worse than France. It's just that Berlin is cheaper, more international and more civil than Paris for instance. This is Europe anyway,there will be regulation for everything,cost of Employee will be higher,not because you have to pay them more but because taxes,and there is no guarantee of "free speech" whatsoever. They should have fled to the US if they really wanted a "free market" environment.
    - socialist_coder 12y ago
      OP hates socialism so Germany is OUT! Poor people are free to starve in the OP's preferred state.
      - guard-of-terra 12y ago
        Citation needed. Not everyone who opposes socialism wants a state where poor starve.
  - nova 12y ago
    Spain has three layers of malfunctioning uncoordinated and corrupt big governments, incredible amounts of red tape and taxes and a slow-as-molasses and politicized judicial system. Not big on free markets either. On the other side it is cheap, reasonably free-as-in-freedom and not a police state yet. Also good weather.
- antocv 12y ago
  Sweden matches.
- SneakerXZ 12y ago
  I would suggest you Czech Republic. Russians are accepted here as minority and a lot of them is living here. Also our language is Slavic so very similar to Russian. We have democracy and I am not aware of any censorship. We are atheists and we are not homophobic. Also we have very good infrastructure and it is cheap to live here. And Prague is a beautiful city.
  - jotm 12y ago
    Another vote for Czech Republic (well, Prague) - great for living and running a small/private business, though kind of bad for getting funding, going public or getting the best employees.
  - ycombasks 12y ago
    > We are atheists Seriously? Is that a good reason to move somewhere? What difference does it make? It's as irrelevant to moving as is the ethnicity of the country.
  - w1ntermute 12y ago
    JetBrains (of IntelliJ fame) is a prominent software firm founded by Russians in Prague. I'm sure that Russians in the tech community are at least semi-aware of the Czech Republic being a good place to move to. If the Czechs are smart, they'll use the current turmoil as a chance to brain drain the Russians. There are a lot of good technical people in Russia who unfortunately don't have a political and economic environment that would enable them to flourish. There was probably a lot of hope after the USSR collapsed that things would get better, but if I were in Russia, I would be losing hope at this point for any significantly positive reform in the foreseeable future.
  - Aoyagi 12y ago
    Strange, I'd say it's the contrary, people in .cz generally dislike hearing Russian, especially in Prague, because here you can see Russians everywhere, tourists or residents. I also don't remember anyone ever claiming that CR has a good infrastructure (when it comes to roads). As for homophobia and Prague being beautiful...well, that's arguable.
- return0 12y ago
  Cyprus, that's where russians go.
  - boards2x 12y ago
    I've recently learned, hunting apartments in Spain, that many realtors don't want to deal with Russians. They find them too crude, and no amount of money they are willing to throw at them, seems to make up for the feeling of revulsion. In some places, they simply mention to them that there's a thriving gay community in the city. That seems to be enough to make them go away... I think it's brilliant, and I also think large concentration of immigrants in one place ends up destroying that community’s reputation and invites trouble.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
cliveowen 12y ago
"We are now going to build our next project, a mobile social network." The chances of becoming a serious Whatsapp competitor have just vanished. Focus is everything, spread too thin and you're done for good.
- danabramov 12y ago
  From what I heard, Telegram was intended as a testbed and the team didn't quite expect the exposure it received. This is going to be a separate product from Telegram. Durov knows what focus is, he kept VK very focused while he was around.
return0 12y ago
I realize we need a new country, a new "Wild West". How is that seasteading country doing?
- haakon 12y ago
  We need a number of of new countries to experiment with different models. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_for_Employment_and_Economic_Development_%28Honduras%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_for_Employment_and_Econom... could be promising in this respect, but it's a long and winding road.
- computer 12y ago
  A bunch of countries in Africa probably fit much of your wanted model. Not everything there is hunger, murder and poverty.
  - jotm 12y ago
    True that - a lot of people look for a "new wild west", and African countries fit the bill. BUT they also want modern infrastructure, organized government and stable laws, which is in direct contradiction with the term :-)
  - postsantum 12y ago
    Can you name some?
    - computer 12y ago
      I have friends in Tanzania, and you could also consider South-Africa, and probably a lot more that I don't know anything about. But it depends on exactly what kind of "Wild West" you're looking for, and I'm no expert on Africa.
qwerta 12y ago
For small innovating business-friendly countries I would suggest Estonia or Slovakia. If you like sea and nice weather Slovenia, Croatia or Monte Negro.
- rplnt 12y ago
  Slovakia is nice nature-wise, but I would probably chose Czech Republic over it. Slovakia is pretty religious, meaning they don't like homosexuals and drugs (harsh possible sentences for users). Corruption is pretty high as well, though I doubt it's much worse from any of the mentioned countries.
  - qwerta 12y ago
    I am actually Czech and my business is based in Prague :-) Slovakia made lot of progress in past 10 years. In business friendlies it is ahead, it also has more stable and simpler laws. In Czech rep every new government totally changes taxes, accounting, working law... Religion wise I do not know. Czech republic is probably the most agnostic country in Europe (if now in the world), and I have not noticed much difference in tolerance compared to Slovakia. Being from Russia will be probably bigger issue.
- tomp 12y ago
  Slovenia (where I'm from): great country, a lot of nature (mountains, sea), near important EU cities (Munich, Vienna, Milano, Venice, Rome), good awesome weather, people know English, not too expensive. But! Bureaucracy is horrible, especially for non-EU foreigners trying to work here. My past company spent a lot of time bringing a (highly qualified, well-paid) Russian to work for a Slovenian! company. I think they resolved the case by using personal connections to government employees (the normal way of resolving issues in Slovenia). Also, taxes are rather high (top marginal tax is only 42%, but it kicks in way sooner than e.g. in UK).
glasz 12y ago
> freedoms, strong judicial systems, small governments, free markets, neutrality and civil rights i wonder what ppl from the east think europe is. europe is one big of a mess of enforced conformity. souvereignty was not in that list but i think it's implied. there's no such thing in any eu country (except uk, maybe). even switzerland has laid down to their masters overseas. civil rights, small government, neutrality? get out of here as long as you can, buddy.
- negus 12y ago
  except uk? even in China there is no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law
  - glasz 12y ago
    there. thanks for proving my point and exposing all those downvoting bastards. not that i care but i guess jtrig just pays too much. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula...
willvarfar 12y ago
How about leaving Europe for ... Bali? Its all over the BBC News today: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27043778 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27043778
junto 12y ago
Berlin would be a smart bet. Lots of engineers and other tech companies. A history of privacy violations has resulted in a favourable right to privacy enshrined in law. It isn't watertight, but it is better than many others.
danabramov 12y ago
Narnia looks like a safe choice.
- sdfjkl 12y ago
  It suffered from recent political instability.
narrator 12y ago
Ecuador, Bolivia or Uruguay?
logicchains 12y ago
Singapore. In response to the preferences they expressed on Facebook, it's got little bureaucracy, a small government, no wars, minimal regulation, a strong judicial system, a relatively free market (ranked no. 2 in the world for economic freedom). Not such a free place if you want to displace the government or use recreational drugs, however, but business-wise it's pretty open.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  For the average business, sure(), but Telegram isn't your average business. Singapore is a police state, and it isn't particularly big on freedoms, strong judicial systems (for anything remotely political) or civil rights. () http://gyrovague.com/2013/10/30/half-the-donut-why-an-entrepreneur-earning-100k-gets-to-keep-over-99k-in-singapore-but-under-57k-in-san-francisco/ http://gyrovague.com/2013/10/30/half-the-donut-why-an-entrep...
  - logicchains 12y ago
    As far as I'm aware though they haven't persecuted anyone for encryption-related business. What rights/freedoms are there that are important to Telegram but endangered in Singapore (not rhetorical; serious question)?
rebolek 12y ago
I would suggest some South American country. Military coups seems like a thing of past and they're pissed at US for various reasons (like spying on them and supporting all those military coups in first place). Something like Uruguay?
- kjs3 12y ago
  Costa Rica? My brothers company has had a software development subsidiary there for more than a decade. Upside: Educated, motivated workforce, reasonable business climate, short plane ride to US and rest of S. America. Great weather and outdoors. Downside: it's not yet quite up to EU or US infrastructure standards, which could cause issues (all of which can be mitigated). Cost of living is not a cheap as it once was. Traffic in San Juan sucks. There will definitely be some cultural issues to be aware of between Slavs and S. Americans. If he's really rabidly anti-socialist, they have universal health care.
socialist_coder 12y ago
Ahh, the search for a country that doesn't exist. Good luck!
darkhorn 12y ago
Why not Bulgaria.
chunkiestbacon 12y ago
I just love the answer of a russian which posted an image of the international space station. Might be worth a try. Switzerland is a good location, regarding laws and no corruption. I wonder however how they are going to get work permits anywhere in westeurope tough, when they are all russians. I guess investing a lot of money might fix that problem.
cyphunk 12y ago
I'd recommend Berlin or Israel. The latter I'm very surprised would make my list but only under these special circumstances. ISRAEL: It is by far the most disgustingly capitalistic country I've ever lived in but the VK crew may find this to their benefit. They will also find a nice and strong Russian community in Israel and a large pool of talent to pull from. What they will not find there is any sort of non-commercial activity (non-edu research, hacker spaces, fringe technical movement of any type) nor will they find a government interested in free speech. And they will have to turn a blind eye to all the shit their tax dollars will be put toward. BERLIN: If you want free speech then definitely go to Berlin. Germanys conservative government comes off more liberal than the US's most liberal government. You'll find strong party factions with ties to post-NSA thinkers and movers. The place is beaming with intellectual discourse. It is also a hacker mecca so there are plenty of fringe technological movements. What you will not find is a large tech community (though it is growing fast) nor a very money driven culture. Go to Berlin if you want to make impact on the world. Go to Israel if you want to make money.
- HenryMc 12y ago
  > ISRAEL I don't think it would meet the no wars criteria (probably the police state one too).
- BugBrother 12y ago
  I've never been to Israel, but from what I've read: - If you get three Israelis in a room, on most subjects you'll find four very different viewpoints. - The media are free and have a large range. From what I've seen in English, much more allowed than the almost censored Swedish media. (But sure, it is a country in a permanent low intensive war -- and the only country in the world with a nuclear weapon threat over their heads. That will influence the general attitude quite a lot.)
kaivi 12y ago
Longyearbyen, Norway. They even have high-speed optic fiber on the island. And here is a nice property for sale, should be great for a small team of 2-4: http://www.finn.no/finn/realestate/homes/object?finnkode=44864871 http://www.finn.no/finn/realestate/homes/object?finnkode=448... Plane tickets to the mainland are dirt cheap. Anyway, that is my dream – to get a comfortable, cozy place far away from the continent. Whatever happens out in the world, will likely not distract me from work. Edit: >They have a team of 12 Well then, one could always buy land and build on it. Also on Svalbard, taxes are pretty low.
porkbird 12y ago
I'd also suggest Berlin, but aren't they in berlin already? If so, I'd be interested to know why are they looking for yet another country? Sure, you need to know some German to get around, but otherwise berlin has a pretty good climate for startups (and the cost of living is not as high as in Switzerland or Iceland).
sumoward 12y ago
If you are interested in Ireland there are some pretty useful government agencies that encourage business locating here. http://www.idaireland.com/help/ http://www.idaireland.com/help/
sergiotapia 12y ago
Come down to Santa Cruz, Bolivia! Minimal bureaucracy, you can register your company in an afternoon. http://www.fundempresa.org.bo/ http://www.fundempresa.org.bo/ You can buy a huge location for peanuts. Or even rent a huge mansion for $2000/month. I'm talking about a place that could house a team of 50 easily. Weather is really beautiful, 90% of the time it's warm and sunny. The winter months are May/June/July. With only 1 week or two of real 'winter' weather. Lots of untapped talent. The best developers here work for outsourcing companies making about $1000-$1200/month. If you were to offer $2000 you can easily poach the best. Cost of living is minimal. $600/month and you're set.
- gerbal 12y ago
  Language barrier may be a problem, but offering premium wages might find a surprising number of russian and english speakers.
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    Spanish is pretty easy to learn, though, no?
    - pault 12y ago
      The syntax is straightforward, but the standard library is large, and some of the forks are mutually incompatible.
ziggamon 12y ago
How poetic of him to post this on Facebook of all places!
HenryMc 12y ago
Australia is pretty good. The government could be a little smaller, but it's not too bad. Melbourne and Sydney have a pretty good tech scene. The weather is different from Russia.
funkyy 12y ago
If you are in central europe you can pick Poland (northern Gdansk or western Poznan - Gdansk is web hub of country, Poznan is business and web hub). Poland is not really friends with Russian government lately so they will protect you. Also - not like small countries - they are large enough to stand strong on any requests from big countries about data sharing etc. Some Polish people speaks russian and most young speak english so you would be covered. Cultural differences are not huge so it would be easy to blend in for you. Another guess - Ireland. Country in Nato but in reality its neutral. There is only 12.5% corporate tax, social is pretty good and everybody speaks english. Just pick Dublin or Cork - those are more "ahead" cities. They have good web connection and there are some activities in them. They are also safe. Country is extremely friendly to web startups (good network - lots of free help). Prices are really high though. Canada - it might be hard for visa (unless you state your reason of data protection - Canada is another country having issues with Putins politics). Canada protects freedom to speech and they can protect your data from russia easily. Energy independent (nobody can bully them) is pretty expensive though. Pick Vancouver or Toronto. If you are hardcore - choose Calgary - harsh weather but 0% state tax and business oriented community. There are also places like New Zealand (might be to remote), Vietnam or Phillipines (to small to really give good protection), Japan (expensive and cultural differences might be a problem). Good luck!
mynegation 12y ago
Canada, Toronto specifically, but other cities are great too. Canadian government is decidedly anti-Putin. Canada has both start-up visa program[0] and business immigration program[1]. Lots of talent. As for bureaucracy, police state, regulation, and big governments - really depends on whom you ask and everything is relative so I'll leave it at that. [0] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/ind... [1] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/ http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/

96 points by andreyvit 12y ago

Citation from a Facebook post by Pavel Durov (founder of vk.com and Telegram), for those who don't want to open Facebook: --- As you probably know, I am out of Russia. Me and my team of 12 engineers have a temporary HQ in Central Europe, and we are now looking for a permanent base to work from. We are choosing a new home, a country that will allow us to develop our projects with privacy and freedom of speech in mind. Our team includes 6 ACM champions and 6 winners of other programming contests. These guys made it possible for Telegram Messenger to gather 40 million registered users worldwide just within 8 months after its launch. Several members of this team, including my brother, were crucial in making VKontakte what it is today — the only social network that defeated Facebook in an open local market. We are now going to build our next project, a mobile social network. What country or city do you think would suit us best? Please feel free to comment below. To give you an idea of our preferences, we dislike bureaucracy, police states, big governments, wars, socialism and excessive regulation. We like freedoms, strong judicial systems, small governments, free markets, neutrality and civil rights. P.S. If you happen to represent a government that meets our criteria, you are welcome to share ideas with me at durov2016@gmail.com.

zura 12y ago
Georgia (eastern Europe) seems like a good fit for those requirements. No bureaucracy, low taxes, cheaper than most central/western European places. One of the most capitalist states in Europe :)
Bootvis 12y ago
Switzerland, what else? Words unfortunately spoken by someone from the Netherlands.
- patrickaljord 12y ago
  I read a year ago that the Netherlands were about to pass big reforms to shrink the welfare state. Did that ever happen?
  - huskyr 12y ago
    More or less. One thing that is happening in the near future is moving the responsibilities for long-term care from the national government to local municipalities, that will probably get less money for it as well.
  - mtrimpe 12y ago
    Also; not really. Small changes on the fringes and generally lowering welfare payouts but nothing too massive, luckily. Firing was made a lot easier in the private sector though; reducing it to essentially at will employment with a forced separation allowance.
- emsy 12y ago
  Funny, I chose my DigitalOcean VPS to be located in the Netherlands rather than the UK. Freedom comes in various levels.
  - ronaldx 12y ago
    Because you felt that gave you some legal protection, despite the fact that you're using a US-based company? The advantage of locating in the Netherlands is that you get served to Europe a little quicker.
    - emsy 12y ago
      Physical protection, not legal protection.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  High living costs. There are lots of nice places in Eastern Europe where the living costs are low, the weather nice and the scenery beautiful. And in quite a few (e.g. Romania) the government is too busy stealing stuff to bother about oppressing freedoms, except maybe about elections...
  - vixin 12y ago
    Yes indeed! Beautiful countryside and really excellent internet connections. For example: "Based on Net Index report at the end of first half of 2013, Timișoara has become the city with the highest download speed in the world. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Romania
  - tomp 12y ago
    > And in quite a few (e.g. Romania) the government is too busy stealing stuff to bother about oppressing freedoms Doesn't that also mean that the government would gladly accept a bribe from a foreign state actor in exchange for suppressing the freedom of the telegram team?!
    - BugBrother 12y ago
      Probably not from Russia, in Romania's case. But it is a point, maybe not worth betting on.
    - StavrosK 12y ago
      If things there are anything like in Greece, the system is corrupt and dysfunctional enough to not care about newfangled problems (there's literally no enforcement of anything limiting online (maybe even offline) freedom here), but not corrupt enough to do egregious/outright illegal things because of bribes.
- return0 12y ago
  Other than banking secrecy, what other advantages does switzerland have? Most markets and research areas are just as regulated as in the rest of europe (i.e. heavily).
- lawl 12y ago
  Switzerland is fairly expensive though [0]. Might not be a problem for Pavel Durov, but maybe for his engineers? Anyways I would have expected more than a simple gmail address from someone developing a crypto messenger. A GPG Public Key too much to ask? Otherwise Switzerland is indeed quite a nice play for businesses. Founding a company takes about half an hour. So that should count as fairly unbureaucratic. Plus Google etc. have their Europe headquarter here. [0] Source: I live there.
  - higherpurpose 12y ago
    You're talking about a "crypto messenger" that doesn't have end-to-end encryption enabled by default (and is therefore insecure by default, just like Whatsapp and other apps like that), so maybe you're expecting too much of him. Germany is a good second choice after Switzerland, I think. Iceland would still be my #1 choice for Wikileaks-like companies, but I don't think Telegram is in that situation, and they might prefer a warmer weather anyway.
    - glasz 12y ago
      what makes you think that way about germany?
    - egeozcan 12y ago
      Germany? As an expat in Germany, the amount of bureaucracy here is sucking the life out of me. YMMV, though.
      - sdfjkl 12y ago
        As a German expat who moved to the UK to start a business, I second this. Incorporating (a GmbH) in Germany would've been a major nightmare compared to the UK. Not that I'd recommend the UK as a good location at this point.
    - donatzsky 12y ago
      The problem is, the further south you go, the more the red tape tends to pile up.
- bjelkeman-again 12y ago
  In my family's experience Switzerland can be a quite hard place to be a foreigner though, unless you work in one of the UN "enclaves" in the major cities. And then it is just very expensive.
- boards2x 12y ago
  Find it strange how people feel free to give advise on things they have no clue about. ie the Swiss only recently voted for a very harsh anti-immigration law, targeting especially Europeans in fact, and more so from the eastern block (prostitution and crime coming from Russia, Bulgaria etc. in big cities), but not limited to. And for the Dutch, please. Dutch hypocrisy and inferiority complex is at its peak. Just the political climate there is enough to put any decent human being off, with such support for the extreme right (Wilders) becoming mainstream, why would anyone want to live or work there, is beyond my understanding.
huskyr 12y ago
Iceland was planning on being the 'Switzerland of data freedom' at a certain point, but i'm not quite sure how they're doing right now: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/jul/12/iceland-legal-haven-journalists-immi http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/jul/12/iceland-legal-h...
- glasz 12y ago
  sheep screwed themselves again: http://m.rte.ie/news/touch//2013/0428/386975-iceland-vote/ http://m.rte.ie/news/touch//2013/0428/386975-iceland-vote/
c1sc0 12y ago
Iceland?
- viraptor 12y ago
  Crazy expensive and the winters can destroy your mood (some friends from abroad could not cope and had to go back home). Probably not the best choice for a long term move unless it's already on your mind.
  - willvarfar 12y ago
    Because Russian winters are warm? They may have experience surviving the winter. (Northerner too)
    - Ihmahr 12y ago
      It is not about the cold, but about the 23 hour darkness for several months. The winters are actually a lot warmer than much of Russia.
- Herbert2 12y ago
  capital controls.
camus2 12y ago
Definetly not France ! I'd suggest Germany(Berlin) or Spain. Great places to leave and cheap.
- thirdsun 12y ago
  Culture-wise and considering the costs, I'd absolutely agree with Berlin, but keep in mind that the german government sure loves its bureaucracy and regulations.
  - camus2 12y ago
    It cant be worse than France. It's just that Berlin is cheaper, more international and more civil than Paris for instance. This is Europe anyway,there will be regulation for everything,cost of Employee will be higher,not because you have to pay them more but because taxes,and there is no guarantee of "free speech" whatsoever. They should have fled to the US if they really wanted a "free market" environment.
  - socialist_coder 12y ago
    OP hates socialism so Germany is OUT! Poor people are free to starve in the OP's preferred state.
    - guard-of-terra 12y ago
      Citation needed. Not everyone who opposes socialism wants a state where poor starve.
- nova 12y ago
  Spain has three layers of malfunctioning uncoordinated and corrupt big governments, incredible amounts of red tape and taxes and a slow-as-molasses and politicized judicial system. Not big on free markets either. On the other side it is cheap, reasonably free-as-in-freedom and not a police state yet. Also good weather.
antocv 12y ago
Sweden matches.
SneakerXZ 12y ago
I would suggest you Czech Republic. Russians are accepted here as minority and a lot of them is living here. Also our language is Slavic so very similar to Russian. We have democracy and I am not aware of any censorship. We are atheists and we are not homophobic. Also we have very good infrastructure and it is cheap to live here. And Prague is a beautiful city.
- jotm 12y ago
  Another vote for Czech Republic (well, Prague) - great for living and running a small/private business, though kind of bad for getting funding, going public or getting the best employees.
- ycombasks 12y ago
  > We are atheists Seriously? Is that a good reason to move somewhere? What difference does it make? It's as irrelevant to moving as is the ethnicity of the country.
- w1ntermute 12y ago
  JetBrains (of IntelliJ fame) is a prominent software firm founded by Russians in Prague. I'm sure that Russians in the tech community are at least semi-aware of the Czech Republic being a good place to move to. If the Czechs are smart, they'll use the current turmoil as a chance to brain drain the Russians. There are a lot of good technical people in Russia who unfortunately don't have a political and economic environment that would enable them to flourish. There was probably a lot of hope after the USSR collapsed that things would get better, but if I were in Russia, I would be losing hope at this point for any significantly positive reform in the foreseeable future.
- Aoyagi 12y ago
  Strange, I'd say it's the contrary, people in .cz generally dislike hearing Russian, especially in Prague, because here you can see Russians everywhere, tourists or residents. I also don't remember anyone ever claiming that CR has a good infrastructure (when it comes to roads). As for homophobia and Prague being beautiful...well, that's arguable.
return0 12y ago
Cyprus, that's where russians go.
- boards2x 12y ago
  I've recently learned, hunting apartments in Spain, that many realtors don't want to deal with Russians. They find them too crude, and no amount of money they are willing to throw at them, seems to make up for the feeling of revulsion. In some places, they simply mention to them that there's a thriving gay community in the city. That seems to be enough to make them go away... I think it's brilliant, and I also think large concentration of immigrants in one place ends up destroying that community’s reputation and invites trouble.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

cliveowen 12y ago

"We are now going to build our next project, a mobile social network." The chances of becoming a serious Whatsapp competitor have just vanished. Focus is everything, spread too thin and you're done for good.

danabramov 12y ago
From what I heard, Telegram was intended as a testbed and the team didn't quite expect the exposure it received. This is going to be a separate product from Telegram. Durov knows what focus is, he kept VK very focused while he was around.

return0 12y ago

I realize we need a new country, a new "Wild West". How is that seasteading country doing?

haakon 12y ago
We need a number of of new countries to experiment with different models. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_for_Employment_and_Economic_Development_%28Honduras%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_for_Employment_and_Econom... could be promising in this respect, but it's a long and winding road.
computer 12y ago
A bunch of countries in Africa probably fit much of your wanted model. Not everything there is hunger, murder and poverty.
- jotm 12y ago
  True that - a lot of people look for a "new wild west", and African countries fit the bill. BUT they also want modern infrastructure, organized government and stable laws, which is in direct contradiction with the term :-)
- postsantum 12y ago
  Can you name some?
  - computer 12y ago
    I have friends in Tanzania, and you could also consider South-Africa, and probably a lot more that I don't know anything about. But it depends on exactly what kind of "Wild West" you're looking for, and I'm no expert on Africa.

qwerta 12y ago

For small innovating business-friendly countries I would suggest Estonia or Slovakia. If you like sea and nice weather Slovenia, Croatia or Monte Negro.

rplnt 12y ago
Slovakia is nice nature-wise, but I would probably chose Czech Republic over it. Slovakia is pretty religious, meaning they don't like homosexuals and drugs (harsh possible sentences for users). Corruption is pretty high as well, though I doubt it's much worse from any of the mentioned countries.
- qwerta 12y ago
  I am actually Czech and my business is based in Prague :-) Slovakia made lot of progress in past 10 years. In business friendlies it is ahead, it also has more stable and simpler laws. In Czech rep every new government totally changes taxes, accounting, working law... Religion wise I do not know. Czech republic is probably the most agnostic country in Europe (if now in the world), and I have not noticed much difference in tolerance compared to Slovakia. Being from Russia will be probably bigger issue.
tomp 12y ago
Slovenia (where I'm from): great country, a lot of nature (mountains, sea), near important EU cities (Munich, Vienna, Milano, Venice, Rome), good awesome weather, people know English, not too expensive. But! Bureaucracy is horrible, especially for non-EU foreigners trying to work here. My past company spent a lot of time bringing a (highly qualified, well-paid) Russian to work for a Slovenian! company. I think they resolved the case by using personal connections to government employees (the normal way of resolving issues in Slovenia). Also, taxes are rather high (top marginal tax is only 42%, but it kicks in way sooner than e.g. in UK).

glasz 12y ago

> freedoms, strong judicial systems, small governments, free markets, neutrality and civil rights i wonder what ppl from the east think europe is. europe is one big of a mess of enforced conformity. souvereignty was not in that list but i think it's implied. there's no such thing in any eu country (except uk, maybe). even switzerland has laid down to their masters overseas. civil rights, small government, neutrality? get out of here as long as you can, buddy.

negus 12y ago
except uk? even in China there is no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law
- glasz 12y ago
  there. thanks for proving my point and exposing all those downvoting bastards. not that i care but i guess jtrig just pays too much. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipula...

willvarfar 12y ago

How about leaving Europe for ... Bali? Its all over the BBC News today: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27043778 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27043778

junto 12y ago

Berlin would be a smart bet. Lots of engineers and other tech companies. A history of privacy violations has resulted in a favourable right to privacy enshrined in law. It isn't watertight, but it is better than many others.

danabramov 12y ago

Narnia looks like a safe choice.

sdfjkl 12y ago
It suffered from recent political instability.

narrator 12y ago

Ecuador, Bolivia or Uruguay?

logicchains 12y ago

Singapore. In response to the preferences they expressed on Facebook, it's got little bureaucracy, a small government, no wars, minimal regulation, a strong judicial system, a relatively free market (ranked no. 2 in the world for economic freedom). Not such a free place if you want to displace the government or use recreational drugs, however, but business-wise it's pretty open.

jpatokal 12y ago
For the average business, sure(), but Telegram isn't your average business. Singapore is a police state, and it isn't particularly big on freedoms, strong judicial systems (for anything remotely political) or civil rights. () http://gyrovague.com/2013/10/30/half-the-donut-why-an-entrepreneur-earning-100k-gets-to-keep-over-99k-in-singapore-but-under-57k-in-san-francisco/ http://gyrovague.com/2013/10/30/half-the-donut-why-an-entrep...
- logicchains 12y ago
  As far as I'm aware though they haven't persecuted anyone for encryption-related business. What rights/freedoms are there that are important to Telegram but endangered in Singapore (not rhetorical; serious question)?

rebolek 12y ago

I would suggest some South American country. Military coups seems like a thing of past and they're pissed at US for various reasons (like spying on them and supporting all those military coups in first place). Something like Uruguay?

kjs3 12y ago
Costa Rica? My brothers company has had a software development subsidiary there for more than a decade. Upside: Educated, motivated workforce, reasonable business climate, short plane ride to US and rest of S. America. Great weather and outdoors. Downside: it's not yet quite up to EU or US infrastructure standards, which could cause issues (all of which can be mitigated). Cost of living is not a cheap as it once was. Traffic in San Juan sucks. There will definitely be some cultural issues to be aware of between Slavs and S. Americans. If he's really rabidly anti-socialist, they have universal health care.

socialist_coder 12y ago

Ahh, the search for a country that doesn't exist. Good luck!

darkhorn 12y ago

Why not Bulgaria.

chunkiestbacon 12y ago

I just love the answer of a russian which posted an image of the international space station. Might be worth a try. Switzerland is a good location, regarding laws and no corruption. I wonder however how they are going to get work permits anywhere in westeurope tough, when they are all russians. I guess investing a lot of money might fix that problem.

cyphunk 12y ago

I'd recommend Berlin or Israel. The latter I'm very surprised would make my list but only under these special circumstances. ISRAEL: It is by far the most disgustingly capitalistic country I've ever lived in but the VK crew may find this to their benefit. They will also find a nice and strong Russian community in Israel and a large pool of talent to pull from. What they will not find there is any sort of non-commercial activity (non-edu research, hacker spaces, fringe technical movement of any type) nor will they find a government interested in free speech. And they will have to turn a blind eye to all the shit their tax dollars will be put toward. BERLIN: If you want free speech then definitely go to Berlin. Germanys conservative government comes off more liberal than the US's most liberal government. You'll find strong party factions with ties to post-NSA thinkers and movers. The place is beaming with intellectual discourse. It is also a hacker mecca so there are plenty of fringe technological movements. What you will not find is a large tech community (though it is growing fast) nor a very money driven culture. Go to Berlin if you want to make impact on the world. Go to Israel if you want to make money.

HenryMc 12y ago
> ISRAEL I don't think it would meet the no wars criteria (probably the police state one too).
BugBrother 12y ago
I've never been to Israel, but from what I've read: - If you get three Israelis in a room, on most subjects you'll find four very different viewpoints. - The media are free and have a large range. From what I've seen in English, much more allowed than the almost censored Swedish media. (But sure, it is a country in a permanent low intensive war -- and the only country in the world with a nuclear weapon threat over their heads. That will influence the general attitude quite a lot.)

kaivi 12y ago

Longyearbyen, Norway. They even have high-speed optic fiber on the island. And here is a nice property for sale, should be great for a small team of 2-4: http://www.finn.no/finn/realestate/homes/object?finnkode=44864871 http://www.finn.no/finn/realestate/homes/object?finnkode=448... Plane tickets to the mainland are dirt cheap. Anyway, that is my dream – to get a comfortable, cozy place far away from the continent. Whatever happens out in the world, will likely not distract me from work. Edit: >They have a team of 12 Well then, one could always buy land and build on it. Also on Svalbard, taxes are pretty low.

porkbird 12y ago

I'd also suggest Berlin, but aren't they in berlin already? If so, I'd be interested to know why are they looking for yet another country? Sure, you need to know some German to get around, but otherwise berlin has a pretty good climate for startups (and the cost of living is not as high as in Switzerland or Iceland).

sumoward 12y ago

If you are interested in Ireland there are some pretty useful government agencies that encourage business locating here. http://www.idaireland.com/help/ http://www.idaireland.com/help/

sergiotapia 12y ago

Come down to Santa Cruz, Bolivia! Minimal bureaucracy, you can register your company in an afternoon. http://www.fundempresa.org.bo/ http://www.fundempresa.org.bo/ You can buy a huge location for peanuts. Or even rent a huge mansion for $2000/month. I'm talking about a place that could house a team of 50 easily. Weather is really beautiful, 90% of the time it's warm and sunny. The winter months are May/June/July. With only 1 week or two of real 'winter' weather. Lots of untapped talent. The best developers here work for outsourcing companies making about $1000-$1200/month. If you were to offer $2000 you can easily poach the best. Cost of living is minimal. $600/month and you're set.

gerbal 12y ago
Language barrier may be a problem, but offering premium wages might find a surprising number of russian and english speakers.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Spanish is pretty easy to learn, though, no?
  - pault 12y ago
    The syntax is straightforward, but the standard library is large, and some of the forks are mutually incompatible.

ziggamon 12y ago

How poetic of him to post this on Facebook of all places!

HenryMc 12y ago

Australia is pretty good. The government could be a little smaller, but it's not too bad. Melbourne and Sydney have a pretty good tech scene. The weather is different from Russia.

funkyy 12y ago

If you are in central europe you can pick Poland (northern Gdansk or western Poznan - Gdansk is web hub of country, Poznan is business and web hub). Poland is not really friends with Russian government lately so they will protect you. Also - not like small countries - they are large enough to stand strong on any requests from big countries about data sharing etc. Some Polish people speaks russian and most young speak english so you would be covered. Cultural differences are not huge so it would be easy to blend in for you. Another guess - Ireland. Country in Nato but in reality its neutral. There is only 12.5% corporate tax, social is pretty good and everybody speaks english. Just pick Dublin or Cork - those are more "ahead" cities. They have good web connection and there are some activities in them. They are also safe. Country is extremely friendly to web startups (good network - lots of free help). Prices are really high though. Canada - it might be hard for visa (unless you state your reason of data protection - Canada is another country having issues with Putins politics). Canada protects freedom to speech and they can protect your data from russia easily. Energy independent (nobody can bully them) is pretty expensive though. Pick Vancouver or Toronto. If you are hardcore - choose Calgary - harsh weather but 0% state tax and business oriented community. There are also places like New Zealand (might be to remote), Vietnam or Phillipines (to small to really give good protection), Japan (expensive and cultural differences might be a problem). Good luck!

mynegation 12y ago

Canada, Toronto specifically, but other cities are great too. Canadian government is decidedly anti-Putin. Canada has both start-up visa program[0] and business immigration program[1]. Lots of talent. As for bureaucracy, police state, regulation, and big governments - really depends on whom you ask and everything is relative so I'll leave it at that. [0] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/ind... [1] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/ http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/