14 ms·

Do Men Suck At Friendship?

313 points by hbe_ 13y ago

vineetdhanawat 13y ago
Automated tweet for this article has a custom mjm.ag domain instead of bit.ly for first time. Not sure why that happened https://twitter.com/hnycombinator/status/458827145398484992 https://twitter.com/hnycombinator/status/458827145398484992
- nandhp 13y ago
  Looks like a (new?) bit.ly feature (pasting the long url into bit.ly gives the same domain); I'm guessing this is related to the Branded Short Domain feature of Bitly Brand Tools? https://bitly.com/a/features https://bitly.com/a/features
- evan_ 13y ago
  That's part of bitly's premium offering. nytimes.com shortens to http://nyti.ms/1gQdV1r http://nyti.ms/1gQdV1r, Amazon shortens to http://amzn.to/1mCftnd http://amzn.to/1mCftnd, and anything .gov shortens to 1.usa.gov: http://1.usa.gov/1iejWVe http://1.usa.gov/1iejWVe The shortened part is totally interchangable, ie http://bit.ly/1gQdV1r http://bit.ly/1gQdV1r still goes to the NY Times site.
leccine 13y ago
Semi sexist, greatly generalizing title. The sample used for the study covers only fraction of the entire data set so making this conclusion is very bold.
- cowpig 13y ago
  It's just sexist, no semi about it. "this is how men are, this is how women are, this is how black people are, this is how gay people are..." it's a harmful way of thinking about the world
  - theorique 13y ago
    Acknowledging and cataloging real observed differences between men and women is fine. That's just science. What's not OK is shaming men for behaviors that are not better or worse than women, but just different.
vishaldpatel 13y ago
tl;dr; answer: no. No they don't.
dang 13y ago
Can anyone suggest a better title? This one is pretty linkbaity.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- abandonliberty 13y ago
  Actually quite appropriate, since the data set doesn't answer the question. I think we could make it more linkbaity. Men: You're shitty friends, and it's killing you
  - dang 13y ago
    Good lord. You're good at that. Please don't do it often :)
- nlh 13y ago
  Indeed. But it is the title of the article, no? Otherwise, maybe "The Male Deficit Model"? (which, I suppose, is linkbaity in its own way)
  - dang 13y ago
    > But it is the title of the article The HN guidelines call for changing titles that are misleading or linkbait, and we do that all the time. But I can't think of a better one here. I guess we'll leave it as is.
- ggreer 13y ago
  Maybe something closer to the title of the paper that started this discussion 30 years ago: Sex Differences in Same-Sex Friendship.[1] The paper itself is much more informative, although drier reading. It's also more engage-able. One can criticize the sample (US college students), methodology, or even the statistics. No doubt there are follow-up studies that confirm some bits of the paper and discredit others. I find that sort of discussion much more productive than the anecdotes and opinions that the Men's Journal post will likely spark. 1. http://www.peplaulab.ucla.edu/Peplau_Lab/Publications_files/Caldwell%20%26%20Peplau%2082.pdf http://www.peplaulab.ucla.edu/Peplau_Lab/Publications_files/...
sosuke 13y ago
I feel this, my chat group I've had with friends from work for the last year just went dead. We bonded strongly at work, in work, and when work didn't connect us we disconnected. This year I made more effort than ever to make friends, but it just hasn't stuck yet. I'm not giving up though.
- mixmastamyk 13y ago
  People at work aren't necessarily your friends, rather they are people forced to "cohabitate" together. Makes sense to keep it friendly, but don't expect it to last much longer than a year or two past your resignation. Patio says the same thing here: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro... Similarly, I've always liked to keep in touch with friends, see how they are doing, etc. When I was younger I expected others were the same, but no. Most people have their own friends and family and while you'll get a hi and smile from them if you bump into them at the grocery, they won't put any effort into keeping in touch. I notice as people get older they tend to isolate themselves, dare I say on purpose. For example I have school friends from 20 years ago who don't even want to be friends on facebook, which is about as close to zero effort you can manage. No, I don't post much, treat others well, and keep it light. In other words, get used to it.
  - ardit33 13y ago
    I disagree. Three of my best friends were former co-workers. We happened to be new-ish to the city back then, in our 20s, going out, bars/clubs, etc, yet sharing a lot of other common career goals as well as personal ones. If you hang out with co-workers on non work related (or sponsored activities), a lot, there is a greater chance for you to become friends on the long term after you moved on to different jobs. They key is to have other common interests that are not related to work, and hang outside work related activities.
    - hosh 13y ago
      Sure, that is the key. It's also assuming you want to make the effort to do so. Sometimes, it is worth doing.
wyager 13y ago
This article implies that living a long life should be the ultimate driving goal behind our actions. What's wrong with "convenience", "mentor", or "activity" friendships? They sound perfectly logical and reasonable to me. Just because these kind of friendships might not contribute as much to longevity doesn't make them wrong.
- PeterisP 13y ago
  The problem with "convenience", "mentor", or "activity" friendships, as the article later explains, is that they tend to rapidly go away when the convenience, mentorship or particular activity ceases. If you want a long-term friendship, then you'd need to push those relationships beyond the convenience/mentorship/activity to have more than that single tie that may randomly disappear.
  - wyager 13y ago
    And why do you want long-term friendships? The article seemed to imply that they were good because they were healthy.
- sosuke 13y ago
  I didn't take away from my reading, that those friendships weren't valuable, but that there could be another stronger connection category that could be made which would be valuable as well.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Health, happiness, & longevity are known to be intermixed. The way I read the article, increased longevity is a more measurable proxy for health & happiness.
dkarapetyan 13y ago
I don't buy it. What stresses me out the most are groups of people jabbering about nothing in particular. Give me a hammock and a nice book and I'm good to go. No elevated cortisol and whatnot.
ashwinaj 13y ago
Yeah this is clearly a American issue. It's certainly not true in Asian/South Asian countries, sure we lose touch with friends but whenever we meet there is an instant and unmistakable bond. When I moved to the US, I couldn't understand why Americans were so "distant". I don't have the same friendships with them as I do with others. Sad but true.
- te_chris 13y ago
  Anecdotally, I've noticed this when I'm in America. Everyone is normally outwardly very friendly, but there's always the feeling that they don't give a shit about the encounter you're having and they're only even talking to you out of some perverse sense of politeness. It was even more strange for me because often our conversations would be relatively honest and about somewhat personal topics (not just the weather, what cities we'd been to etc) which, in my experience, you only broach when you really want to discuss such things and feel a connection with a person, but, apart from a few people there was still always that feeling that people were just being polite and basically waiting for you to excuse them. YMMV.
  - ashwinaj 13y ago
    You're right. Strangers are outwardly friendly for no apparent reason. The worst part was when I met them again, many of them wouldn't recognize me! I was mainly referring to the convenience/activity/mentor friends described in the article.
    - bra-ket 13y ago
      I bet they'd recognize you if you were perceived as someone potentially "useful" to them. I noticed the friendships here are often centered around very pragmatic sense of utility.
    - zhemao 13y ago
      > Strangers are outwardly friendly for no apparent reason Why should one need a reason to be friendly? Would you rather people be curt and standoffish by default?
allochthon 13y ago
How culture-specific is this trend?
adamzerner 13y ago
Some people say we're past the "social fad". I think that we're just at the tip of the iceberg, and this article hints at some of the problems that we could solve.
- pskittle 13y ago
  like?
  - adamzerner 13y ago
    - The fact that most friendships are shallow, not deep. - The fact that people lose touch with their friends at predictable points in their lives. - The fact that married people have trouble finding friends.
victorhooi 13y ago
This article really resonates with me. Many of my male friendships do seem to resonate around convenience (i.e. we help each other) or activities. If you take that away...I'm unsure what the depth is. This could just be me though. I do have friendships with females who are nothing like me, which are more around just...fun/chatting/hanging out. But either way, friendships do take work/effort - and sometimes you need to push that along a bit, and think gee, I haven't seen "XYZ" in a while, let's organise a catchup.
- EC1 13y ago
  I find what matters most in my friendships is being on the same page in terms of mindset, because then anything is enjoyable. I'm a social guy, I have lots of "friends", but I really only have three TRUE friends. I called my buddy up (one of the three) that I haven't seen for 2 years, nothing was awkward, talked for a few hours like nothing happened, all because we never changed who we were. All three of my friends have completely different stances on various topics, topics that usually divide people, in terms of subjects like religion and politics. The thing is, even though we don't agree on much of anything really, we take pleasure in endlessly bantering between one another and "fighting" our opinions. At the end of the day though, nobody is hurt. You always end up learning something new, or exploring some other outlook. The key is to be friends with mentally strong people. Friends that are open to whatever, whenever. I hate being friends with people who have defined things that they like, or don't like, for no real reason. My friends and I's take on life is that the only thing that truly matters are relationships, everything else is mainly either a vehicle for fun, or to support yourself, so doing things isn't a struggle because nobody holds any personal or cultural bias against anything. We like exploring things just by virtue of curiosity and it's nearly always a fun experience. Just plain old hanging out like as if we were kids.
- reinhardt 13y ago
  It really resonates with me too at a personal level but at the same time it's quite surprising if this is indeed so widespread across men. I'm an extreme introvert with few, if any, close friends and relationships or a strong desire for such, and it has always befuddled me how smooth and effortless many friendships look from the outside. The whole concept of "hanging out" without some common ground or a common activity or goal in mind is almost foreign to me. I can "hang out" with a friend I haven't seen for ages to catch up with what's been going on with each other but I can't see how this is sustainable on a weekly basis or more. Age is also a big factor. It seems that most friendships go back to childhood, teenage or college years. The older you get, the harder is to make new relationships that go past the plain acquaintance stage. The prospect of building a social network (in the offline sense of the word) from scratch in your mid thirties, say after moving to the other side of the country or the world, sounds intimidating even to normal extroverted people I've talked to, let alone chronic loners.
d23 13y ago
I've certainly found this to be my experience with my friends, who are mostly males, but I've also found it to be that way with females as well. My theory has been that evolutionarily it is advantageous for us to get over loss quickly. If a person in your tribe suddenly disappears from your daily experience, there's really only one explanation -- they aren't coming back. It doesn't do much good to pine over them for your own survival's sake. I'm not saying that it's a good thing -- it actually depresses me quite a bit. Maybe it's different for females though. I'm not sure what to make of it.
doyoulikeworms 13y ago
As a 27 year old male, most of my friendships revolve around doing things together. Working, video games, sports, drinking, or eating, mostly.
- dankoss 13y ago
  I agree with this but, my problem is that most people have only one or two major interests so friendship is completely one-dimensional based around a single activity. So when conversation drifts off the common topic or activity, there isn't much to do or talk about. People interested in sports may not also be interested in video games, etc.
non0nsense 13y ago
How are we really defining friendship here? I've mostly found in my experiences that females value self-serving relationships that build them up. Meaningless values of 'friendship' where they have no contrast for a real, meaningful relationship. See how sexism swings both ways? Who the heck posts this kind of drivel?
- aestra 13y ago
  You've been hanging out with some terrible people. I actually didn't find this article sexist or attacking.
  - non0nsense 13y ago
    I'm sorry? Do explain how you could read so much into a single comment. That or crawl back into whatever hole you came from please.
pabb 13y ago
I had an issue with this while finishing up classes at school, although I understand being a college student isn't really the main demographic for this article. I had a group of friends that I met with only through convenience (we were all in the same fraternity, and then I quit). After some time, one of the guys made a multi-way text/chat group on WhatsApp and it gave us all an opportunity to bullshit amongst each other about whatever we felt like. The best part was that it didn't leave anyone out of the loop, and held us each accountable for responding to attempts to get together. Most of the time the interactions are pretty pointless (cracking jokes at someone, sending links to a funny picture or article, changing the group photo to a hotter girl than the last one someone put up, etc), but it's just a good outlet to stay in sync with one another, even if we don't all have time to hang out. I'd recommend it to anyone who connected with the article.
- Omniusaspirer 13y ago
  Adding onto this: Set up a Teamspeak or similar voice server. Like the guy above I'm only in my lower 20's at this point but it's the single best move I've made in maintaining friendships with people I'm no longer physically close to. My friends know that they can hop in any time they want and we can have a great time chatting or playing a game together. I think the more accessible you make it to keep in touch the better off your relationships will be, but there's no getting around the simple fact that friendships require effort from both parties to maintain.
thewarrior 13y ago
This doesn't happen in India. This is a purely western phenomenon.
- sumedh 13y ago
  Do you speak for all Indians? This also happens in India and has nothing to do with western culture.
  - wsxcde 13y ago
    It's certainly easier to make friends in India. I used to do it effortlessly when I was there and I never felt lonely at all. Here it just seems harder to make friends. Part of it might just be that there are fewer people so you're less likely to find someone with whom you connect. And the other thing might be that a lot of interactions are so much more impersonal here. I haven't lived there in years but I know many of the shopkeepers who operate near my parents house in India and we always catch up and chat a bit when I visit. The supermarket here is a merry-go-round of high school kids and other temporary workers. There's no connection to be made at all. Ashwin's story upthread about people seeming to be very friendly and then forgetting who you are really resonated with me. There was this lady who gave me haircut a year or two ago. We chatted quite a bit, I told her where I studied and what I worked on (somewhat unusual for me because I'm very private). She told me he was doing a master's degree at a nearby university, lived in a nearby town and I think we even talked politics for a bit! I felt like we had at least established an acquaintance and I gave her a $5 tip on a $10 haircut. And the next time I went there she had completely forgotten me! I understand their profession requires them to be friendly, but I did feel a let down. :-/
    - Omniusaspirer 13y ago
      A lot of this stuff is very dependent on the person I feel, the hair stylist I always went to (living in the US) was incredibly on top of what all of her customers were up to. There were even times she'd mention things my parents had told her about that my parents hadn't even thought to mention to me since they didn't deem it important. It's all anecdotal of course, but figured I'd chime in. Speaking more broadly on your first paragraphs I feel that my ability to make new friends has really changed as I've aged. As a kid I had tons of friends and people I'd talk to, leaving for college I also met and got to be friends with new people. Now living on my own in a new city as a self employed single male I'm finding it really difficult to make friends. Or perhaps difficult isn't the right way to word it...I think it's more fair to say it requires very real effort now. I simply don't meet people unless I make a conscious effort to do so and the grocery store isn't a very conducive location for making friends. Everyone I talk to is friendly, but I seemingly never got very good at turning "friendly" into friendships. I still have old friends that I make a point of keeping up with and talking to regularly, but without normal social obligations in my life it's tricky for me to break that invisible wall (if you will). Curious stuff.
kevrone 13y ago
Men can be friends with women too. Just sayin'.
nailer 13y ago
I think men's friendships tend to be fewer but deeper. This resonates with a lot of people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hmlPtRu1SQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hmlPtRu1SQ
- vacri 13y ago
  There's a lot of variation between individuals, and it also changes significantly with age. 20-year-olds tend to form cliques of 5-15 people that do things together... then as they age and pair off or move elsewhere, they stop doing things as a group. Friendship dynamics change as well. I think there's something in the research about a healthier life being one with more friends, but the author seems to make a huge jump from that to extrapolating his own experience to all other men.
rpm33 13y ago
This is definitely an American "culture" issue. Especially in a big city like San Francisco, i've noticed a lot of ephemeral relationships that last around convenience.
hosh 13y ago
Really? To be fair, I have only a small handful of friends who I'd entrust my body and my life to in the worse case, but I've generally made friends wherever I have lived. These friends are ones that isn't quite activity, mentorship, or convenience friends. Maybe I'm just the outlier.
sardonicbryan 13y ago
As a male with more close female confidants/friends than male, I find it interesting that this article in no way acknowledged the possibility of a platonic male/female friendship.
- cperciva 13y ago
  Men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
  - reinhardt 13y ago
    Unless there's no sexual attraction, preferably mutual. I for one don't consider every (or even most) women to be fuckable.
  - cdr 13y ago
    I really hope I'm missing some sarcasm there.
    - cperciva 13y ago
      It was a quote from 'When Harry met Sally', but a study recently backed it up: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-women-cant-be-just-friends/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-women-cant...
      - cdr 13y ago
        176 teenagers... what an impressive study.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - ama729 13y ago
        > but a study recently backed it up Except it ... doesn't? Not only it doesn't seem to be a well designed study (the 9 point scale doesn't make much sense, there is no graph with the numbers for each answers, etc), the conclusion they get from it seem strange, since most people don't want to go on a date: On average: Male: 4.55 Female: 3.90, since it's a 9 point scale[1]: 5 mean "Neutral/Unsure" and below is the "no" range. [1]https://analysights.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/071210_2340_considerres22.png?w=450 https://analysights.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/071210_2340_...
theswan 13y ago
Tangential point - what does the phrase "any dish?" mean?
- saraid216 13y ago
  It comes from the phrase "dish it out". More: http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/dish+out http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/dish+out
- Omniusaspirer 13y ago
  It's equivalent to "scoop" or "gossip".
ryanklee 13y ago
Yeah, and/or people are totally fucked on average when it comes to sustaining deep, long-lasting relationships. Go figure. That shit is hard. Hard. Like: fulfillment, actualization, self-discipline, happiness, etc., etc. Do men suck at friendship? Of course. Just like they suck at vying w/ their own mortality. It's hardly a gender thing. Start with a better narrative and you'll end up with a better answer.
saraid216 13y ago
Well, if anything, the article concludes that men suck at gossip. Which is a little disappointing if true. Gossip has its insidious bits, but it was also the best carrier of information before things like internet forums and news aggregators. There are studies that show things like health and job-finding happen along second-degree links. Friends of friends, that is, or in other words, the gossip space. Things like, "Oh, I hear Joe quit smoking" or "Oh, I hear Sam is looking for a new executive" and so on are gossip. So is "So it turns out Jay is allergic to chocolate", which tells you don't give any chocolate to Jay. So, Mr. Duane? A suggestion? Tell your wife about how Matt reacted to biking through that one area. Or how goofy he looked when he finished taking apart the wall. Give her a connection to him, even if it's viewed entirely through your perspective. These are touchstones for her to help you maintain your friendship with him, too. Yeah, sure, you want to make sure he's okay with this. Don't gossip behind his back, or reveal things he wants to remain confidential. But she obviously knows what you're doing together; share details.
darylteo 13y ago
I'm 28 now and I already feel like I have no friends left. Yay.
- thatphatness 13y ago
  Change your approach? I had an acquaintance in his late 30's that still tries to hang out and make friends with the hip college crowd. Soon as his 'friends' graduate, they always end up moving on. I wasn't surprised by his frustrations.
vacri 13y ago
I don't understand why the author thinks that a good friendship requires collecting some gossip for his wife for each hour or two of contact.
- bolaft 13y ago
  He doesn't. At the end of his story, after he rekindled his friendship with this surfer guy, he still has no gossip for his wife.
  - vacri 13y ago
    Looks like I read the end of it the wrong way, thanks.
scythe 13y ago
I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that this article refers primarily to non-poor white men in the OECD, and that most people are not WEIRD: http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/jvt002/brainmind/readings/henrich_2010.pdf http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/jvt002/brainmind/readings/h... In particular attempting to draw conclusions about innate (genetic) behavior from this skewed sample is highly subject to confounding.
- aestra 13y ago
  >In particular attempting to draw conclusions about innate (genetic) behavior from this skewed sample is highly subject to confounding. Was the author trying to do that? It didn't read like that to me at all. He tried to explain some cultural trends that contribute, etc.
pmorici 13y ago
I don't think men are bad at friendship I do think it takes more for them to develop the kind of deep friendship between men that the article laments are missing. I have a handful of good friends who mostly live in different cities now but we still keep in touch and make a point to get together whenever we cross paths. These all came out of things like high school cross country or roommates over several years. Point being I think there needs to be a strong shared experience over several years for men to get to that point. The sorts of things described in the article usually don't run deep enough or last long enough to cultivate a longer lasting friendship.
namuol 13y ago
All my long-term friends are women. The closest are ex-lovers or best-friends lovers/ex-lovers. Most of our banter is about relationships and general angst. Many I only see maybe once or twice a year, but talk regularly online or over the phone. But even before I had any romantic history, most of my friends were girls. Nearly all of my male friends have drifted, but I have female friends from highschool that I still talk to pretty regularly.
- return0 13y ago
  Maybe it's hard to make male friends when all you wanna talk about is relationships and general angst.
  - namuol 13y ago
    Or maybe I just don't bother maintaining friendships with people who aren't capable of getting real without hiding behind a veil of snark.
LoganCale 13y ago
I have both male and female friends, but all my closest friends these days are male. This wasn't always the case, though. I used to have a lot more female friends, and I guess now it's shifted the other way. I haven't personally noticed any sort of difference between genders that makes one better suited for friendship over the other...
serf 13y ago
I wrote a big long spiel about the comments in this thread, but i'll summarize to save everyone some time. The culture-centricity in this thread is kind of sickening, and as hackers I hope that everyone who is reading through it remembers to attempt to take things as a neutral observer and apply scientific methods to your findings; and take anecdotal evidence at it's worth.
- lotsofcows 13y ago
  Oh! As a hacker I was planning on calling bullshit and doing my own thing as normal. I'll try it your way... Hmmm... it's all anecdotal including the original post and the citations... there is no scientific method present... so it's all bullshit and I'll just do things my way as normal. There's been some interesting discussion though.
mercurialshark 13y ago
While I agree with most of the author's points, I think it's missing two key aspects. Intellectual curiosity doesn't continue for everyone (I want to scratch my eyes out just watching football and never discussing anything of intrigue) and some guys don't know how to be friends outside of a group. 1. I don't find most my old friends interesting. The guys I have stuff in common with are mostly work connections/guys that understand the plight of the entrepreneur and we don't actually hang out. Activity friends are cool but like most my friends from college, it increasingly feels like a chore. The few friends that have any depth to them live out of town. That said, in the future we have email and don't have to physically see each other all the time to coddle our friendships. 2. Some dudes just never learned how to have one-on-one friends outside of a group. This is by far the most common problem I see that transcends male friendships. If you befriend someone as an adult that you can regularly carry on a conversation with, without outside help, take note - they may become your new brosive.
bsder 13y ago
USian viewpoint here. This article makes me cringe. Is the author gay or a pseudonym for a girl? The article seems to extol what most would call "girly" friendship--continuous contact, social gossip, etc. Lots of attention to little things. Most guys I know of tend to equate true friendship along the lines of "will help you bury the body and won't ask questions." Male friendship tends to get tested around helping with big, infrequent things--death of parent/spouse, get somebody to hospital, cover for you when you did something monumentally stupid. Men tend to forgive the "didn't hang out last week" but won't ever forgive things like "didn't show up for your dad's funeral".
- onnoonno 13y ago
  ^^ This. I know I am there for my friends and I know that they are there for me. That already gives me a feeling of connectedness. I do not need to see them on a daily basis.
- colechristensen 13y ago
  Speaking of cringing, the adjective you're looking for is 'American'.
  - adwn 13y ago
    I wonder when "America" ceased to mean "the two continents North and South America" and started to mean "USA" in the heads of US citizens. There's a reason why "European" isn't synonymous to "German", and why "Asian" isn't synonymous to "Chinese".
    - TazeTSchnitzel 13y ago
      United States of America = America United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland = Britain
      - adityar 13y ago
        He knows how it came into being. I think his question was more along the lines of "should it?"
Xcelerate 13y ago
> That's because nearly all research into healthy aging has found that the key to a long, happy life is not diet or exercise but strong social connections – that is, friendships. Loneliness accelerates age-related declines in cognition and motor function, while a single good friend has been shown to make as much as a 10-year difference in overall life expectancy. This makes me sad :( My mother passed away from cancer in 2001 after 16 years of marriage to my father. Their marriage was one of those ideal marriages that most people don't think really exists; they were truly each other's best friend and were incredibly happy together. Now that my sister is finishing college and I'm in grad school, my dad goes to work for long hours each day and comes home to an empty house. He doesn't socialize much more than going to the coffee shop on weekend mornings. I don't know what to do about this; I live three hours away and can't visit every weekend, and my sister is getting married soon and moving away as well. He's not opposed to dating, but the last time he dated was nearly a decade ago, and I know he doesn't want to date because of the sheer sadness he still feels from my mother's death. He has mentioned it would be really nice to have a companion though. I need ideas. Solitude isn't a good way to spend the rest of one's life, and I really want him to be happy. This article has confirmed my fears about loneliness even more, and I want to help him.
- probably_wrong 13y ago
  I'd suggest him picking a hobby, and taking classes about it. He doesn't really need someone to date, apparently, but just someone to talk to and have fun. Going out and doing something he likes surrounded by like-minded people sounds about right.
- curiousfiddler 13y ago
  Just have him move with you. It's a priceless experience.
  - hablahaha 13y ago
    I've been thinking about doing this in the upcoming years. I'm guessing you're speaking from experience, if so, can you elaborate more?
- 13y ago
rybosome 13y ago
This article raises an issue that terrifies me; over-reliance on one's wife for friendship. I love my wife and I do consider her my best friend, which is wonderful...but now that I no longer live in the same city as my closest friends, I don't have any really strong local bonds other than with her. She's planning a trip out of town in a few weeks, and I've already started figuring out what I'll do: maybe go on a bike ride, play some video games, clean our apartment, go see a movie, order takeout, etc. None of those plans involve friends. Probably not a good sign. =/ It's not exactly difficult to make loose friends or fun acquaintances, but maintaining and strengthening those into deep, close friendships feels nearly impossible.
- chill1 13y ago
  I am in a similar situation, except I moved to another country with my long-term girlfriend. I know what you mean, but I think all it takes is time. You must have met someone recently in your new city? A neighbor? Is there a "hacker space" in your city to which you could go to a meetup to meet similar people? It's almost like dating, but for friendship. Try to find people you think you'd get along with, meet them, and invite them to do things. Sure, you'll have to put yourself out there a bit, but after the first few times you don't even think about that anymore.
Aloha 13y ago
The article is statistically irrelevant - but feels right. I have many close friends, most of them are worlds away in terms of distance, and I don't hang out with many locals - sometimes I wonder if its Seattle, or something specific to my generation.
- finnh 13y ago
  Having split my life between Seattle and San Francisco, I feel comfortable making the generalization that many Seattleites are very shy in real life. If you moved to another city you might be surprised at how much easier it is to make new friends out of absolute strangers.
shittyanalogy 13y ago
If you have friends that are flaky and won't hang out, fuck 'em and get new friends. Get hobbies and meet people who do the same thing. Learn a language, join a book club, go to code meetups, start your own Code/BBQ/Motorcycle workshop. Be interesting and you will meet interesting people. Be boring and wrapped up in your own life and you will not. This has nothing to do with men, the article should be titled: "Do boring, flaky people suck at friendship?" Most of the people on this planet are boring, and flaky, and wrapped up in their own lives, and if you don't learn how to cope with that and you don't have one of those miraculous, since high-school, partners in crime, friendships you're not gonna have friends. Have kids instead.
chintan39 13y ago
Men just talk less.But Men are equally good at friendship.
SoftwareMaven 13y ago
My formative years were somewhat less than ideal (moving every three months, abusive environment, fat before fat was normal, nerdy, etc). I always blamed not being able to make lasting relationships on that. I've now come to the conclusion that 80% of why I suck at friendship is innate, and 20% is learned. I've tried hobbies and meetups to no avail; I just wind up sitting in the corner. I think this is where the 20% mentioned hurts. Even if I manage to get out of that corner (a rare event, but it does happen), I don't know how to take a conversation beyond "How's it going?" Where's the Facebook for actually finding new friends?
- lmm 13y ago
  At the pool is one I've heard mentioned here, though it's somewhat meetuppy. I think going somewhere explicitly "to make friends" would put most people off, it's the sort of thing that needs to be approached obliquely.
- aestra 13y ago
  This isn't so much innate. It is most likely an anxiety problem. You can overcome it but it isn't going to be easy as it takes going far out of your comfort zone.
- zequel 13y ago
  Like boardgames (ones on boardgamegeek.com, not Monopoly)? It's a great hobby that requires interaction. It's great for ice-breaking imo. Most men need ice broken to make a connection, alcohol helps too. Some shared common thread like kids in the same school helps a lot. Joining a sports league is good too if that's your cup of tea, I've met a number of people that way. It's a good no-pressure way of interacting with your teammates.
seanccox 13y ago
Quoted text below from this source: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/300997-ok-now-let-s-have-some-fun-let-s-talk-about-sex http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/300997-ok-now-let-s-have-som... OK, now let’s have some fun. Let’s talk about sex. Let’s talk about women. Freud said he didn’t know what women wanted. I know what women want. They want a whole lot of people to talk to. What do they want to talk about? They want to talk about everything. What do men want? They want a lot of pals, and they wish people wouldn’t get so mad at them. Why are so many people getting divorced today? It’s because most of us don’t have extended families anymore. It used to be that when a man and a woman got married, the bride got a lot more people to talk to about everything. The groom got a lot more pals to tell dumb jokes to. A few Americans, but very few, still have extended families. The Navahos. The Kennedys. But most of us, if we get married nowadays, are just one more person for the other person. The groom gets one more pal, but it’s a woman. The woman gets one more person to talk to about everything, but it’s a man. When a couple has an argument, they may think it’s about money or power or sex, or how to raise the kids, or whatever. What they’re really saying to each other, though, without realizing it, is this: “You are not enough people!”
- andrey-p 13y ago
  Ha! I was just about to say this reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's Slapstick, where people get automatically assigned to an extended family. Then I clicked the link at the bottom.
- drdaeman 13y ago
  EDIT: Didn't realize that whole parent post was a quotation. Sorry. Well, you^W Vonnegut said that like all men and women are extroverts. Personally, I'd prefer a tiny group of pals (active, any amount of "hey, I know that dude, we talked once ten years ago" is fine), because being a well-connected peer in a large communications cluster is tiresome. Oh, and I know at least one case where extended family caused a divorce. Guess that's a fairly common case, as finding consensus and maintaining good relationships within a large group is a harder task than between two persons.
- vacri 13y ago
  There is more divorce now because it is no longer a burdensome shame to break from a joyless marriage. People change and mature in different ways, and young people aren't known for making sensible decisions affecting the rest of their life. In ye olde days, people would stay with abusive (or boring) spouses purely because the social stigma of leaving was worse. These days that stigma is largely gone in much of the West.
kitsune_ 13y ago
In my experience it's the total opposite: I've known most of my friends since kindergarten. We all know each others dreams, hopes and fears and support each other without being judgmental. We share a common set of values. I could vanish without saying a word and they'd welcome me back with open arms 10 years later.
jzzskijj 13y ago
I've realized that many men (I know) want to talk about their feelings, frustrations, relationships, insecurities etc., when given a good example and opening up a little at first. I learned to do that a couple of years ago, when I was going through difficult times. Went to meet a friend for a couple of beers, started slowly talking, without whining or complaining, about things that make me insecure and we realized opening up and talking about all kinds of "non-manly" things that made us feel bad. That friend relationship deepened into totally new level and since then I've gone through same thing with many of my real friends. 1) Open up, 2) Share, 3) Listen, 4) Care. It felt really great to get a SMS a week later saying "how are things and are you feeling better?" Not saying that I am a perfect friend or Mr. Empathy, but I feel that I am a little bit better person than I used to be.
- Lapsa 13y ago
  You are slowly turning into a girl. Before you'll realize that - you gonna become a transperson :(
  - jzzskijj 13y ago
    I'm willing to take that risk, if that's what it takes.
  - simplemath 13y ago
    I would be so happy if attitudes like yours didn't exist. C'est la vie. Assholes all the way down.
    - Lapsa 13y ago
      Feed me!
jon_black 13y ago
> That's because nearly all research into healthy aging has found that the key to a long, happy life is not diet or exercise but strong social connections Epicurus believed that three things were necessary for a happy existence: 1. Friends 2. Freedom 3. Thought (as in personal reflection on yourself and your life) I believe that in life there are many doors and therefore many keys. If you find a key and it opens a door, do not assume that all other doors will open for you; likewise, do not assume that what's behind the door you have opened is the answer to life long happiness. It's quite frustrating that as a species we try to reduce such complex matters into such simple rules.
elohesra 13y ago
Has anyone actually read the studies linked by the author to back up his drivel? I'll save you some time: the 2007 study isn't valid even by the low levels of scientific burden required for psychological studies (it's entirely based on self-reporting), and the 1982 study support the opposite conclusion to the author's. In fact, the 1982 study [0] finds that men and women simply have different kinds of friendships, where men are likely to only engage in emotional sharing with their closest friends, and women are more likely to engage in emotional sharing with all their friends. This brings me on to challenging the true point of the article: slating the traditional male gender role. It's no accident that the author turns to the authority of feminists for perspectives on men -- despite that being so laughly outside the remit of feminism -- because the entire point, unstated but present, throughout the article is that women have 'got it right' and men should be more like women. In lieu of any studies which actually support his point (note that only the first two studies in the article actually even discuss his point about male friendships, the rest are an irrelevance), he instead uses anecdote as evidence for a point neither study can support, and then goes on to blame the entire mess on the traditional male gender role. I won't defend the male gender role, because I have no stock in doing so, but I would at least ask that if something's going to be blamed for mens' terrible friendships then we at least provide some proof that men do indeed have terrible friendships. Lastly, the article, like so many in the media, is yet another argument that encourages you to accept its faulty form by providing you with a false dichotomy: the argument begs the question that either type of friend (the emotional numerous friends of women, or the close few friends of men) is a superior type of friend, links some 'evidence' which doesn't support its point, and then encourages you to ask yourself whether men or women 'have it right' before even bothering to prove if there's anything to actually get right in this situation. I will say one thing though: if this is the kind of stuff Men's Journal prints, then either its readership is mostly women, or men sure do love self-flagellation. [0] http://www.peplaulab.ucla.edu/Peplau_Lab/Publications_files/Caldwell%20%26%20Peplau%2082.pdf http://www.peplaulab.ucla.edu/Peplau_Lab/Publications_files/...
- alex_doom 13y ago
  Men's Journal is basically Cosmo. Bullshit journalism and fluff.
known 13y ago
Google "Men have bigger brains than women, research reveals"
stefantalpalaru 13y ago
Even though we use the same word, friendship in the male culture is a different concept from friendship in the female culture and it is a mistake to judge one with the criteria for the other.
C1D 13y ago
This seems more like a myth to me. I have friend that I have known since we were toddlers. Even though me and him are in different countries we Skype daily! I will be visiting him in August and he's going to visit me in December.
youRallMad 13y ago
Do men suck at friendships? the answer is yes but because most of us never try, Personal Ramble It all starts when we are children. Look at how young boys and girls play. Boys will do things together, play football, play video games talk about things they do (notice the DO, guys like to DO things). Girls will play games around social events, and developing their social hierarchy. Girls learn from a young age how to operate in social groups. boys do not tend to learn these skills until teenage years, until then they will entertain themselves To make the point, say 2 boys have an argument, they are more likely to come to blows, fight and then drop the issue, dealing with the issue. Girls on the other hand will use talking/and social to punish those that they are fighting with. Social exclusion is the general form of punishment for girls that do not follow the established social hierarchy of a school system. This is simply to highlight the differences between boys and girls as children (aka less time for social manipulation in to pre-defined roles) The above i feel is a biological difference in the way that men and women operate even at young ages. This is still in us as adults. (there are a number of studies about this point, boys raised as girls and so on, personally i KNOW that boys and girls are biologically different and in turn you can not just tell someone to be a girl or boy, it is hard coded (trying to highlight that I do not believe that the role of girls and boys are interchangeable as some people imply; I believe trans and other gender identity issues are based on biological triggers)) So moving on, i might be getting to a point In my part of the world men are taught from a young age to be 'strong', 'leaders', 'money earners', 'head of the family'. Men have been exploited throughout history because of this mentality (think men front line of wars, its the mans role to defend his country and not complain (if you ran you got shot), protect our women, and supply our family with money. We are taught to ignore our emotions and to endure (work 8hrs/5days a week for 60 years). This is 1000s of years old, men are the work horses, well minus the very few at the top who pull the strings and certain people use to proclaim that men rule the world. I also believe that we put too much focus on SO to 'complete' our lives (an extension of the idea that a man should support a family). So many people have said that their SO is their best friend and i think this is great. However as a 30 year old male I have one group of friends that have all got engaged at the same time, they all getting married within the same few years and they will be having kids at the same time i am sure. My honest option on this is that out of the 5 guys in that group, 4 of them have been pushed in to it by the girls of the group, and the first couple that started it off, well the guy was told he either asked her to marry him or she would ask him that leap year (last year) Basically what happened was one girl wanted to get married and then using that as a president the other girls banded together and got the rest of the guys to ask them. This might sound like harsh but men need to stop thinking that their lives are about supporting other people, we need to learn that our lives are our own, we are not here to pay bills, support children (if you want to then amazing) but it is not our default roles. Sadly there is such a lack of male roles today that the 9-5 with 2-4 children is now the default. I feel sorry for men, we have been used and abused as wage earners and human targets, we work to support our families all the time self sacrificing our own social well being. i am 30 and spent the last 9 years working on my friendship (balanced between girls and boys these days) and being close with my family. I was one of the most socially difficult people you will never know when young but thanks to lots of practice i can start a conversion with anyone anywhere. I can go to clubs by myself, dancing as an example or the pictures, it is not an issue. I guess i should put in that I have only had few relationships and i have spent more time living on my own that I ever have in relationships but on the flip side, I have a lot of friends (Sounds bad, but i have always feared some girl loading me up with kids and then me spending the rest of my life slaving to support them while they all resent me for never being at home because i am working). One thing i will say is that single guys do tend to socialize together, a lot of my single male friends are all interlinked, and most of my friends in couples are friends with couples. There is very little over lap between these groups. Single guys have different social requirements to men with SOs, and I guess it is a preference to what social groups you prefer. So to all of you what is your priority? to become the default wage earner for a family and then complain that you have no friends? or start making your own path in life, focus on your friends rather than chasing the next SO. Find out who you are, and what you like, and you will have no issues making friends. Be true to yourself, not true to someone else s view of you I guess a summery is... Men and women socialize differently from a young age, i think its hard coded to a large degree. Men have lost their roles in every day life, and (personally) too many men spend their lives supporting family's because they believe it is what is expected off them. I say it's time for a male revolution, a time when men can band together (pack style) and we can entertain ourself and get out of this rat race that is a life of working to raise a family. There are too many people in the world anyway, do you really want to bring someone in to it? where the hell do you think we will be in 10 years given what has happened over the last 10 years. It is time for Males to start redefining their roles in the world and this will start with you.
roymurdock 13y ago
"In Steppenwolf's case, the fact is that, like all hybrid creatures, he lived with the feeling of being sometimes a wolf, sometimes a human being. However, as a wolf he was forever conscious of his human side lying in wait, observing, judging and condemning him; just as the wolf did when he was a human being. For example, whenever Harry in his capacity as a human being had some lovely idea, experience some fine and noble sentiment, or did a so-called good deed, the wolf in him would bare its teeth and laugh him utterly to scorn, indicating how ludicrously out of character all this fine play-acting was in a wild animal of the steppes, a wolf who at heart knew perfectly well that his real pleasure lay in stalking alone across the plains, occasionally blood or pursuing a she-wolf. Seen thus from the wolf's point of view, every human action became frighteningly comic and self-conscious, vain and inane. But it was exactly the same when Harry felt and behaved like a wolf, when he showed other people his teeth or became murderously hostile to humankind as a whole, hating all its hypocritical and degenerate manners and customs. For then it was the human side of him that lay in wait, observing the wolf, calling him a brute and a beast, spoiling and souring all the pleasure he was taking in the straightforward life of a healthy untamed wolf... His position was a lonely one; it was uncanny the way the world left him to his own devices. Other people were longer of concern to him; he wasn't even concerned about himself. The air around him was getting thinner and thinner the more solitary he became, severing all contact with others, and he was slowly suffocating as a result. For the situation now was different. No longer his desire and goal, solitude and independence were a fate he was condemned to. He had made his magic wish and there was no going back on it. However strongly he yearned to re-establish contact with others, however willing he was to hold out his arms to embrace them, it was of no avail: they now left him alone. Yet there was no indication that people hated him or found him repugnant. On the contrary; he had lots of friends. Lots of people liked him. But friendliness and sympathy were the only reactions he ever encountered. People would invite him to their homes, give him presents, write him nice letters, but nobody was able or willing to share his life. He was no breathing the air that the lonely breathe, living in an atmosphere that was still, adrift from the world around him. No amount of yearning or goodwill had any effect on his inability to form relationships." Steppenwolf - Hermann Hesse
gr3yh47 13y ago
"when we were all so freaked-out about seeming gay that we'd leave an empty seat between us at the movies." or, you know, because horizontal leg room...
bluedino 13y ago
I wasn't sure I was supposed to be expecting more as a guy? Most of my male-to-male interaction occurs because of shared interest. Usually a 'man activity' such as working on a car, house, or yard, working out, riding motorcycles, that sort of thing. But there's no talk about feelings or things like that. I could help a buddy cut down a couple trees and nothing of the sort gets discussed. I'll come home and be asked, "So did Mike say how it's going with his new job/girlfriend/whatever?" I reply, "No. Was I supposed to ask him about that?" I think the only time there's any real discussion about things of that sort is the other activity I share with other guys: drinking alcohol
wittgenstein 13y ago
Some men are genuinely not very interested in forming intimate friendships with other males. This does not mean men "suck" at friendship. It just means they prefer to have intimate relationships with women, not men.
Ryoku 13y ago
I find it interesting how focused this article is in the "traditional" male gender role. It doesn't even touch the subject of different friendship types and relations when involving other genders than 'male'. Without denying that sex has it's toll in the physical (duh) and psychological treats of a person, I do believe that traditional gender roles are the only roles taken into account for this article, making a great deal of assumptions on how males act towards friendship. Does anyone know if there are studies such as the ones mentioned in the article that take into account a less black and white view of gender roles or that digs into other types of friendships?

313 points by hbe_ 13y ago

Automated tweet for this article has a custom mjm.ag domain instead of bit.ly for first time. Not sure why that happened https://twitter.com/hnycombinator/status/458827145398484992 https://twitter.com/hnycombinator/status/458827145398484992

nandhp 13y ago
Looks like a (new?) bit.ly feature (pasting the long url into bit.ly gives the same domain); I'm guessing this is related to the Branded Short Domain feature of Bitly Brand Tools? https://bitly.com/a/features https://bitly.com/a/features
evan_ 13y ago
That's part of bitly's premium offering. nytimes.com shortens to http://nyti.ms/1gQdV1r http://nyti.ms/1gQdV1r, Amazon shortens to http://amzn.to/1mCftnd http://amzn.to/1mCftnd, and anything .gov shortens to 1.usa.gov: http://1.usa.gov/1iejWVe http://1.usa.gov/1iejWVe The shortened part is totally interchangable, ie http://bit.ly/1gQdV1r http://bit.ly/1gQdV1r still goes to the NY Times site.

leccine 13y ago

Semi sexist, greatly generalizing title. The sample used for the study covers only fraction of the entire data set so making this conclusion is very bold.

cowpig 13y ago
It's just sexist, no semi about it. "this is how men are, this is how women are, this is how black people are, this is how gay people are..." it's a harmful way of thinking about the world
- theorique 13y ago
  Acknowledging and cataloging real observed differences between men and women is fine. That's just science. What's not OK is shaming men for behaviors that are not better or worse than women, but just different.

vishaldpatel 13y ago

tl;dr; answer: no. No they don't.

dang 13y ago

Can anyone suggest a better title? This one is pretty linkbaity.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
abandonliberty 13y ago
Actually quite appropriate, since the data set doesn't answer the question. I think we could make it more linkbaity. Men: You're shitty friends, and it's killing you
- dang 13y ago
  Good lord. You're good at that. Please don't do it often :)
nlh 13y ago
Indeed. But it is the title of the article, no? Otherwise, maybe "The Male Deficit Model"? (which, I suppose, is linkbaity in its own way)
- dang 13y ago
  > But it is the title of the article The HN guidelines call for changing titles that are misleading or linkbait, and we do that all the time. But I can't think of a better one here. I guess we'll leave it as is.
ggreer 13y ago
Maybe something closer to the title of the paper that started this discussion 30 years ago: Sex Differences in Same-Sex Friendship.[1] The paper itself is much more informative, although drier reading. It's also more engage-able. One can criticize the sample (US college students), methodology, or even the statistics. No doubt there are follow-up studies that confirm some bits of the paper and discredit others. I find that sort of discussion much more productive than the anecdotes and opinions that the Men's Journal post will likely spark. 1. http://www.peplaulab.ucla.edu/Peplau_Lab/Publications_files/Caldwell%20%26%20Peplau%2082.pdf http://www.peplaulab.ucla.edu/Peplau_Lab/Publications_files/...

sosuke 13y ago

I feel this, my chat group I've had with friends from work for the last year just went dead. We bonded strongly at work, in work, and when work didn't connect us we disconnected. This year I made more effort than ever to make friends, but it just hasn't stuck yet. I'm not giving up though.

mixmastamyk 13y ago
People at work aren't necessarily your friends, rather they are people forced to "cohabitate" together. Makes sense to keep it friendly, but don't expect it to last much longer than a year or two past your resignation. Patio says the same thing here: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro... Similarly, I've always liked to keep in touch with friends, see how they are doing, etc. When I was younger I expected others were the same, but no. Most people have their own friends and family and while you'll get a hi and smile from them if you bump into them at the grocery, they won't put any effort into keeping in touch. I notice as people get older they tend to isolate themselves, dare I say on purpose. For example I have school friends from 20 years ago who don't even want to be friends on facebook, which is about as close to zero effort you can manage. No, I don't post much, treat others well, and keep it light. In other words, get used to it.
- ardit33 13y ago
  I disagree. Three of my best friends were former co-workers. We happened to be new-ish to the city back then, in our 20s, going out, bars/clubs, etc, yet sharing a lot of other common career goals as well as personal ones. If you hang out with co-workers on non work related (or sponsored activities), a lot, there is a greater chance for you to become friends on the long term after you moved on to different jobs. They key is to have other common interests that are not related to work, and hang outside work related activities.
  - hosh 13y ago
    Sure, that is the key. It's also assuming you want to make the effort to do so. Sometimes, it is worth doing.

wyager 13y ago

This article implies that living a long life should be the ultimate driving goal behind our actions. What's wrong with "convenience", "mentor", or "activity" friendships? They sound perfectly logical and reasonable to me. Just because these kind of friendships might not contribute as much to longevity doesn't make them wrong.

PeterisP 13y ago
The problem with "convenience", "mentor", or "activity" friendships, as the article later explains, is that they tend to rapidly go away when the convenience, mentorship or particular activity ceases. If you want a long-term friendship, then you'd need to push those relationships beyond the convenience/mentorship/activity to have more than that single tie that may randomly disappear.
- wyager 13y ago
  And why do you want long-term friendships? The article seemed to imply that they were good because they were healthy.
sosuke 13y ago
I didn't take away from my reading, that those friendships weren't valuable, but that there could be another stronger connection category that could be made which would be valuable as well.
sliverstorm 13y ago
Health, happiness, & longevity are known to be intermixed. The way I read the article, increased longevity is a more measurable proxy for health & happiness.

dkarapetyan 13y ago

I don't buy it. What stresses me out the most are groups of people jabbering about nothing in particular. Give me a hammock and a nice book and I'm good to go. No elevated cortisol and whatnot.

ashwinaj 13y ago

Yeah this is clearly a American issue. It's certainly not true in Asian/South Asian countries, sure we lose touch with friends but whenever we meet there is an instant and unmistakable bond. When I moved to the US, I couldn't understand why Americans were so "distant". I don't have the same friendships with them as I do with others. Sad but true.

te_chris 13y ago
Anecdotally, I've noticed this when I'm in America. Everyone is normally outwardly very friendly, but there's always the feeling that they don't give a shit about the encounter you're having and they're only even talking to you out of some perverse sense of politeness. It was even more strange for me because often our conversations would be relatively honest and about somewhat personal topics (not just the weather, what cities we'd been to etc) which, in my experience, you only broach when you really want to discuss such things and feel a connection with a person, but, apart from a few people there was still always that feeling that people were just being polite and basically waiting for you to excuse them. YMMV.
- ashwinaj 13y ago
  You're right. Strangers are outwardly friendly for no apparent reason. The worst part was when I met them again, many of them wouldn't recognize me! I was mainly referring to the convenience/activity/mentor friends described in the article.
  - bra-ket 13y ago
    I bet they'd recognize you if you were perceived as someone potentially "useful" to them. I noticed the friendships here are often centered around very pragmatic sense of utility.
  - zhemao 13y ago
    > Strangers are outwardly friendly for no apparent reason Why should one need a reason to be friendly? Would you rather people be curt and standoffish by default?

allochthon 13y ago

How culture-specific is this trend?

adamzerner 13y ago

Some people say we're past the "social fad". I think that we're just at the tip of the iceberg, and this article hints at some of the problems that we could solve.

pskittle 13y ago
like?
- adamzerner 13y ago
  - The fact that most friendships are shallow, not deep. - The fact that people lose touch with their friends at predictable points in their lives. - The fact that married people have trouble finding friends.

victorhooi 13y ago

This article really resonates with me. Many of my male friendships do seem to resonate around convenience (i.e. we help each other) or activities. If you take that away...I'm unsure what the depth is. This could just be me though. I do have friendships with females who are nothing like me, which are more around just...fun/chatting/hanging out. But either way, friendships do take work/effort - and sometimes you need to push that along a bit, and think gee, I haven't seen "XYZ" in a while, let's organise a catchup.

EC1 13y ago
I find what matters most in my friendships is being on the same page in terms of mindset, because then anything is enjoyable. I'm a social guy, I have lots of "friends", but I really only have three TRUE friends. I called my buddy up (one of the three) that I haven't seen for 2 years, nothing was awkward, talked for a few hours like nothing happened, all because we never changed who we were. All three of my friends have completely different stances on various topics, topics that usually divide people, in terms of subjects like religion and politics. The thing is, even though we don't agree on much of anything really, we take pleasure in endlessly bantering between one another and "fighting" our opinions. At the end of the day though, nobody is hurt. You always end up learning something new, or exploring some other outlook. The key is to be friends with mentally strong people. Friends that are open to whatever, whenever. I hate being friends with people who have defined things that they like, or don't like, for no real reason. My friends and I's take on life is that the only thing that truly matters are relationships, everything else is mainly either a vehicle for fun, or to support yourself, so doing things isn't a struggle because nobody holds any personal or cultural bias against anything. We like exploring things just by virtue of curiosity and it's nearly always a fun experience. Just plain old hanging out like as if we were kids.
reinhardt 13y ago
It really resonates with me too at a personal level but at the same time it's quite surprising if this is indeed so widespread across men. I'm an extreme introvert with few, if any, close friends and relationships or a strong desire for such, and it has always befuddled me how smooth and effortless many friendships look from the outside. The whole concept of "hanging out" without some common ground or a common activity or goal in mind is almost foreign to me. I can "hang out" with a friend I haven't seen for ages to catch up with what's been going on with each other but I can't see how this is sustainable on a weekly basis or more. Age is also a big factor. It seems that most friendships go back to childhood, teenage or college years. The older you get, the harder is to make new relationships that go past the plain acquaintance stage. The prospect of building a social network (in the offline sense of the word) from scratch in your mid thirties, say after moving to the other side of the country or the world, sounds intimidating even to normal extroverted people I've talked to, let alone chronic loners.

d23 13y ago

I've certainly found this to be my experience with my friends, who are mostly males, but I've also found it to be that way with females as well. My theory has been that evolutionarily it is advantageous for us to get over loss quickly. If a person in your tribe suddenly disappears from your daily experience, there's really only one explanation -- they aren't coming back. It doesn't do much good to pine over them for your own survival's sake. I'm not saying that it's a good thing -- it actually depresses me quite a bit. Maybe it's different for females though. I'm not sure what to make of it.

doyoulikeworms 13y ago

As a 27 year old male, most of my friendships revolve around doing things together. Working, video games, sports, drinking, or eating, mostly.

dankoss 13y ago
I agree with this but, my problem is that most people have only one or two major interests so friendship is completely one-dimensional based around a single activity. So when conversation drifts off the common topic or activity, there isn't much to do or talk about. People interested in sports may not also be interested in video games, etc.

non0nsense 13y ago

How are we really defining friendship here? I've mostly found in my experiences that females value self-serving relationships that build them up. Meaningless values of 'friendship' where they have no contrast for a real, meaningful relationship. See how sexism swings both ways? Who the heck posts this kind of drivel?

aestra 13y ago
You've been hanging out with some terrible people. I actually didn't find this article sexist or attacking.
- non0nsense 13y ago
  I'm sorry? Do explain how you could read so much into a single comment. That or crawl back into whatever hole you came from please.

pabb 13y ago

I had an issue with this while finishing up classes at school, although I understand being a college student isn't really the main demographic for this article. I had a group of friends that I met with only through convenience (we were all in the same fraternity, and then I quit). After some time, one of the guys made a multi-way text/chat group on WhatsApp and it gave us all an opportunity to bullshit amongst each other about whatever we felt like. The best part was that it didn't leave anyone out of the loop, and held us each accountable for responding to attempts to get together. Most of the time the interactions are pretty pointless (cracking jokes at someone, sending links to a funny picture or article, changing the group photo to a hotter girl than the last one someone put up, etc), but it's just a good outlet to stay in sync with one another, even if we don't all have time to hang out. I'd recommend it to anyone who connected with the article.

Omniusaspirer 13y ago
Adding onto this: Set up a Teamspeak or similar voice server. Like the guy above I'm only in my lower 20's at this point but it's the single best move I've made in maintaining friendships with people I'm no longer physically close to. My friends know that they can hop in any time they want and we can have a great time chatting or playing a game together. I think the more accessible you make it to keep in touch the better off your relationships will be, but there's no getting around the simple fact that friendships require effort from both parties to maintain.

thewarrior 13y ago

This doesn't happen in India. This is a purely western phenomenon.

sumedh 13y ago
Do you speak for all Indians? This also happens in India and has nothing to do with western culture.
- wsxcde 13y ago
  It's certainly easier to make friends in India. I used to do it effortlessly when I was there and I never felt lonely at all. Here it just seems harder to make friends. Part of it might just be that there are fewer people so you're less likely to find someone with whom you connect. And the other thing might be that a lot of interactions are so much more impersonal here. I haven't lived there in years but I know many of the shopkeepers who operate near my parents house in India and we always catch up and chat a bit when I visit. The supermarket here is a merry-go-round of high school kids and other temporary workers. There's no connection to be made at all. Ashwin's story upthread about people seeming to be very friendly and then forgetting who you are really resonated with me. There was this lady who gave me haircut a year or two ago. We chatted quite a bit, I told her where I studied and what I worked on (somewhat unusual for me because I'm very private). She told me he was doing a master's degree at a nearby university, lived in a nearby town and I think we even talked politics for a bit! I felt like we had at least established an acquaintance and I gave her a $5 tip on a $10 haircut. And the next time I went there she had completely forgotten me! I understand their profession requires them to be friendly, but I did feel a let down. :-/
  - Omniusaspirer 13y ago
    A lot of this stuff is very dependent on the person I feel, the hair stylist I always went to (living in the US) was incredibly on top of what all of her customers were up to. There were even times she'd mention things my parents had told her about that my parents hadn't even thought to mention to me since they didn't deem it important. It's all anecdotal of course, but figured I'd chime in. Speaking more broadly on your first paragraphs I feel that my ability to make new friends has really changed as I've aged. As a kid I had tons of friends and people I'd talk to, leaving for college I also met and got to be friends with new people. Now living on my own in a new city as a self employed single male I'm finding it really difficult to make friends. Or perhaps difficult isn't the right way to word it...I think it's more fair to say it requires very real effort now. I simply don't meet people unless I make a conscious effort to do so and the grocery store isn't a very conducive location for making friends. Everyone I talk to is friendly, but I seemingly never got very good at turning "friendly" into friendships. I still have old friends that I make a point of keeping up with and talking to regularly, but without normal social obligations in my life it's tricky for me to break that invisible wall (if you will). Curious stuff.

kevrone 13y ago

Men can be friends with women too. Just sayin'.

nailer 13y ago

I think men's friendships tend to be fewer but deeper. This resonates with a lot of people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hmlPtRu1SQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hmlPtRu1SQ

vacri 13y ago
There's a lot of variation between individuals, and it also changes significantly with age. 20-year-olds tend to form cliques of 5-15 people that do things together... then as they age and pair off or move elsewhere, they stop doing things as a group. Friendship dynamics change as well. I think there's something in the research about a healthier life being one with more friends, but the author seems to make a huge jump from that to extrapolating his own experience to all other men.

rpm33 13y ago

This is definitely an American "culture" issue. Especially in a big city like San Francisco, i've noticed a lot of ephemeral relationships that last around convenience.

hosh 13y ago

Really? To be fair, I have only a small handful of friends who I'd entrust my body and my life to in the worse case, but I've generally made friends wherever I have lived. These friends are ones that isn't quite activity, mentorship, or convenience friends. Maybe I'm just the outlier.

sardonicbryan 13y ago

As a male with more close female confidants/friends than male, I find it interesting that this article in no way acknowledged the possibility of a platonic male/female friendship.

cperciva 13y ago
Men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
- reinhardt 13y ago
  Unless there's no sexual attraction, preferably mutual. I for one don't consider every (or even most) women to be fuckable.
- cdr 13y ago
  I really hope I'm missing some sarcasm there.
  - cperciva 13y ago
    It was a quote from 'When Harry met Sally', but a study recently backed it up: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-women-cant-be-just-friends/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-women-cant...
    - cdr 13y ago
      176 teenagers... what an impressive study.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - ama729 13y ago
      > but a study recently backed it up Except it ... doesn't? Not only it doesn't seem to be a well designed study (the 9 point scale doesn't make much sense, there is no graph with the numbers for each answers, etc), the conclusion they get from it seem strange, since most people don't want to go on a date: On average: Male: 4.55 Female: 3.90, since it's a 9 point scale[1]: 5 mean "Neutral/Unsure" and below is the "no" range. [1]https://analysights.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/071210_2340_considerres22.png?w=450 https://analysights.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/071210_2340_...

theswan 13y ago

Tangential point - what does the phrase "any dish?" mean?

saraid216 13y ago
It comes from the phrase "dish it out". More: http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/dish+out http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/dish+out
Omniusaspirer 13y ago
It's equivalent to "scoop" or "gossip".

ryanklee 13y ago

Yeah, and/or people are totally fucked on average when it comes to sustaining deep, long-lasting relationships. Go figure. That shit is hard. Hard. Like: fulfillment, actualization, self-discipline, happiness, etc., etc. Do men suck at friendship? Of course. Just like they suck at vying w/ their own mortality. It's hardly a gender thing. Start with a better narrative and you'll end up with a better answer.

saraid216 13y ago

Well, if anything, the article concludes that men suck at gossip. Which is a little disappointing if true. Gossip has its insidious bits, but it was also the best carrier of information before things like internet forums and news aggregators. There are studies that show things like health and job-finding happen along second-degree links. Friends of friends, that is, or in other words, the gossip space. Things like, "Oh, I hear Joe quit smoking" or "Oh, I hear Sam is looking for a new executive" and so on are gossip. So is "So it turns out Jay is allergic to chocolate", which tells you don't give any chocolate to Jay. So, Mr. Duane? A suggestion? Tell your wife about how Matt reacted to biking through that one area. Or how goofy he looked when he finished taking apart the wall. Give her a connection to him, even if it's viewed entirely through your perspective. These are touchstones for her to help you maintain your friendship with him, too. Yeah, sure, you want to make sure he's okay with this. Don't gossip behind his back, or reveal things he wants to remain confidential. But she obviously knows what you're doing together; share details.

darylteo 13y ago

I'm 28 now and I already feel like I have no friends left. Yay.

thatphatness 13y ago
Change your approach? I had an acquaintance in his late 30's that still tries to hang out and make friends with the hip college crowd. Soon as his 'friends' graduate, they always end up moving on. I wasn't surprised by his frustrations.

vacri 13y ago

I don't understand why the author thinks that a good friendship requires collecting some gossip for his wife for each hour or two of contact.

bolaft 13y ago
He doesn't. At the end of his story, after he rekindled his friendship with this surfer guy, he still has no gossip for his wife.
- vacri 13y ago
  Looks like I read the end of it the wrong way, thanks.

scythe 13y ago

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that this article refers primarily to non-poor white men in the OECD, and that most people are not WEIRD: http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/jvt002/brainmind/readings/henrich_2010.pdf http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/jvt002/brainmind/readings/h... In particular attempting to draw conclusions about innate (genetic) behavior from this skewed sample is highly subject to confounding.

aestra 13y ago
>In particular attempting to draw conclusions about innate (genetic) behavior from this skewed sample is highly subject to confounding. Was the author trying to do that? It didn't read like that to me at all. He tried to explain some cultural trends that contribute, etc.

pmorici 13y ago

I don't think men are bad at friendship I do think it takes more for them to develop the kind of deep friendship between men that the article laments are missing. I have a handful of good friends who mostly live in different cities now but we still keep in touch and make a point to get together whenever we cross paths. These all came out of things like high school cross country or roommates over several years. Point being I think there needs to be a strong shared experience over several years for men to get to that point. The sorts of things described in the article usually don't run deep enough or last long enough to cultivate a longer lasting friendship.

namuol 13y ago

All my long-term friends are women. The closest are ex-lovers or best-friends lovers/ex-lovers. Most of our banter is about relationships and general angst. Many I only see maybe once or twice a year, but talk regularly online or over the phone. But even before I had any romantic history, most of my friends were girls. Nearly all of my male friends have drifted, but I have female friends from highschool that I still talk to pretty regularly.

return0 13y ago
Maybe it's hard to make male friends when all you wanna talk about is relationships and general angst.
- namuol 13y ago
  Or maybe I just don't bother maintaining friendships with people who aren't capable of getting real without hiding behind a veil of snark.

LoganCale 13y ago

I have both male and female friends, but all my closest friends these days are male. This wasn't always the case, though. I used to have a lot more female friends, and I guess now it's shifted the other way. I haven't personally noticed any sort of difference between genders that makes one better suited for friendship over the other...

serf 13y ago

I wrote a big long spiel about the comments in this thread, but i'll summarize to save everyone some time. The culture-centricity in this thread is kind of sickening, and as hackers I hope that everyone who is reading through it remembers to attempt to take things as a neutral observer and apply scientific methods to your findings; and take anecdotal evidence at it's worth.

lotsofcows 13y ago
Oh! As a hacker I was planning on calling bullshit and doing my own thing as normal. I'll try it your way... Hmmm... it's all anecdotal including the original post and the citations... there is no scientific method present... so it's all bullshit and I'll just do things my way as normal. There's been some interesting discussion though.

mercurialshark 13y ago

While I agree with most of the author's points, I think it's missing two key aspects. Intellectual curiosity doesn't continue for everyone (I want to scratch my eyes out just watching football and never discussing anything of intrigue) and some guys don't know how to be friends outside of a group. 1. I don't find most my old friends interesting. The guys I have stuff in common with are mostly work connections/guys that understand the plight of the entrepreneur and we don't actually hang out. Activity friends are cool but like most my friends from college, it increasingly feels like a chore. The few friends that have any depth to them live out of town. That said, in the future we have email and don't have to physically see each other all the time to coddle our friendships. 2. Some dudes just never learned how to have one-on-one friends outside of a group. This is by far the most common problem I see that transcends male friendships. If you befriend someone as an adult that you can regularly carry on a conversation with, without outside help, take note - they may become your new brosive.

bsder 13y ago

USian viewpoint here. This article makes me cringe. Is the author gay or a pseudonym for a girl? The article seems to extol what most would call "girly" friendship--continuous contact, social gossip, etc. Lots of attention to little things. Most guys I know of tend to equate true friendship along the lines of "will help you bury the body and won't ask questions." Male friendship tends to get tested around helping with big, infrequent things--death of parent/spouse, get somebody to hospital, cover for you when you did something monumentally stupid. Men tend to forgive the "didn't hang out last week" but won't ever forgive things like "didn't show up for your dad's funeral".

onnoonno 13y ago
^^ This. I know I am there for my friends and I know that they are there for me. That already gives me a feeling of connectedness. I do not need to see them on a daily basis.
colechristensen 13y ago
Speaking of cringing, the adjective you're looking for is 'American'.
- adwn 13y ago
  I wonder when "America" ceased to mean "the two continents North and South America" and started to mean "USA" in the heads of US citizens. There's a reason why "European" isn't synonymous to "German", and why "Asian" isn't synonymous to "Chinese".
  - TazeTSchnitzel 13y ago
    United States of America = America United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland = Britain
    - adityar 13y ago
      He knows how it came into being. I think his question was more along the lines of "should it?"

Xcelerate 13y ago

> That's because nearly all research into healthy aging has found that the key to a long, happy life is not diet or exercise but strong social connections – that is, friendships. Loneliness accelerates age-related declines in cognition and motor function, while a single good friend has been shown to make as much as a 10-year difference in overall life expectancy. This makes me sad :( My mother passed away from cancer in 2001 after 16 years of marriage to my father. Their marriage was one of those ideal marriages that most people don't think really exists; they were truly each other's best friend and were incredibly happy together. Now that my sister is finishing college and I'm in grad school, my dad goes to work for long hours each day and comes home to an empty house. He doesn't socialize much more than going to the coffee shop on weekend mornings. I don't know what to do about this; I live three hours away and can't visit every weekend, and my sister is getting married soon and moving away as well. He's not opposed to dating, but the last time he dated was nearly a decade ago, and I know he doesn't want to date because of the sheer sadness he still feels from my mother's death. He has mentioned it would be really nice to have a companion though. I need ideas. Solitude isn't a good way to spend the rest of one's life, and I really want him to be happy. This article has confirmed my fears about loneliness even more, and I want to help him.

probably_wrong 13y ago
I'd suggest him picking a hobby, and taking classes about it. He doesn't really need someone to date, apparently, but just someone to talk to and have fun. Going out and doing something he likes surrounded by like-minded people sounds about right.
curiousfiddler 13y ago
Just have him move with you. It's a priceless experience.
- hablahaha 13y ago
  I've been thinking about doing this in the upcoming years. I'm guessing you're speaking from experience, if so, can you elaborate more?
13y ago

rybosome 13y ago

This article raises an issue that terrifies me; over-reliance on one's wife for friendship. I love my wife and I do consider her my best friend, which is wonderful...but now that I no longer live in the same city as my closest friends, I don't have any really strong local bonds other than with her. She's planning a trip out of town in a few weeks, and I've already started figuring out what I'll do: maybe go on a bike ride, play some video games, clean our apartment, go see a movie, order takeout, etc. None of those plans involve friends. Probably not a good sign. =/ It's not exactly difficult to make loose friends or fun acquaintances, but maintaining and strengthening those into deep, close friendships feels nearly impossible.

chill1 13y ago
I am in a similar situation, except I moved to another country with my long-term girlfriend. I know what you mean, but I think all it takes is time. You must have met someone recently in your new city? A neighbor? Is there a "hacker space" in your city to which you could go to a meetup to meet similar people? It's almost like dating, but for friendship. Try to find people you think you'd get along with, meet them, and invite them to do things. Sure, you'll have to put yourself out there a bit, but after the first few times you don't even think about that anymore.

Aloha 13y ago

The article is statistically irrelevant - but feels right. I have many close friends, most of them are worlds away in terms of distance, and I don't hang out with many locals - sometimes I wonder if its Seattle, or something specific to my generation.

finnh 13y ago
Having split my life between Seattle and San Francisco, I feel comfortable making the generalization that many Seattleites are very shy in real life. If you moved to another city you might be surprised at how much easier it is to make new friends out of absolute strangers.

shittyanalogy 13y ago

If you have friends that are flaky and won't hang out, fuck 'em and get new friends. Get hobbies and meet people who do the same thing. Learn a language, join a book club, go to code meetups, start your own Code/BBQ/Motorcycle workshop. Be interesting and you will meet interesting people. Be boring and wrapped up in your own life and you will not. This has nothing to do with men, the article should be titled: "Do boring, flaky people suck at friendship?" Most of the people on this planet are boring, and flaky, and wrapped up in their own lives, and if you don't learn how to cope with that and you don't have one of those miraculous, since high-school, partners in crime, friendships you're not gonna have friends. Have kids instead.

chintan39 13y ago

Men just talk less.But Men are equally good at friendship.

SoftwareMaven 13y ago

My formative years were somewhat less than ideal (moving every three months, abusive environment, fat before fat was normal, nerdy, etc). I always blamed not being able to make lasting relationships on that. I've now come to the conclusion that 80% of why I suck at friendship is innate, and 20% is learned. I've tried hobbies and meetups to no avail; I just wind up sitting in the corner. I think this is where the 20% mentioned hurts. Even if I manage to get out of that corner (a rare event, but it does happen), I don't know how to take a conversation beyond "How's it going?" Where's the Facebook for actually finding new friends?

lmm 13y ago
At the pool is one I've heard mentioned here, though it's somewhat meetuppy. I think going somewhere explicitly "to make friends" would put most people off, it's the sort of thing that needs to be approached obliquely.
aestra 13y ago
This isn't so much innate. It is most likely an anxiety problem. You can overcome it but it isn't going to be easy as it takes going far out of your comfort zone.
zequel 13y ago
Like boardgames (ones on boardgamegeek.com, not Monopoly)? It's a great hobby that requires interaction. It's great for ice-breaking imo. Most men need ice broken to make a connection, alcohol helps too. Some shared common thread like kids in the same school helps a lot. Joining a sports league is good too if that's your cup of tea, I've met a number of people that way. It's a good no-pressure way of interacting with your teammates.

seanccox 13y ago

Quoted text below from this source: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/300997-ok-now-let-s-have-some-fun-let-s-talk-about-sex http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/300997-ok-now-let-s-have-som... OK, now let’s have some fun. Let’s talk about sex. Let’s talk about women. Freud said he didn’t know what women wanted. I know what women want. They want a whole lot of people to talk to. What do they want to talk about? They want to talk about everything. What do men want? They want a lot of pals, and they wish people wouldn’t get so mad at them. Why are so many people getting divorced today? It’s because most of us don’t have extended families anymore. It used to be that when a man and a woman got married, the bride got a lot more people to talk to about everything. The groom got a lot more pals to tell dumb jokes to. A few Americans, but very few, still have extended families. The Navahos. The Kennedys. But most of us, if we get married nowadays, are just one more person for the other person. The groom gets one more pal, but it’s a woman. The woman gets one more person to talk to about everything, but it’s a man. When a couple has an argument, they may think it’s about money or power or sex, or how to raise the kids, or whatever. What they’re really saying to each other, though, without realizing it, is this: “You are not enough people!”

andrey-p 13y ago
Ha! I was just about to say this reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's Slapstick, where people get automatically assigned to an extended family. Then I clicked the link at the bottom.
drdaeman 13y ago
EDIT: Didn't realize that whole parent post was a quotation. Sorry. Well, you^W Vonnegut said that like all men and women are extroverts. Personally, I'd prefer a tiny group of pals (active, any amount of "hey, I know that dude, we talked once ten years ago" is fine), because being a well-connected peer in a large communications cluster is tiresome. Oh, and I know at least one case where extended family caused a divorce. Guess that's a fairly common case, as finding consensus and maintaining good relationships within a large group is a harder task than between two persons.
vacri 13y ago
There is more divorce now because it is no longer a burdensome shame to break from a joyless marriage. People change and mature in different ways, and young people aren't known for making sensible decisions affecting the rest of their life. In ye olde days, people would stay with abusive (or boring) spouses purely because the social stigma of leaving was worse. These days that stigma is largely gone in much of the West.

kitsune_ 13y ago

In my experience it's the total opposite: I've known most of my friends since kindergarten. We all know each others dreams, hopes and fears and support each other without being judgmental. We share a common set of values. I could vanish without saying a word and they'd welcome me back with open arms 10 years later.

jzzskijj 13y ago

I've realized that many men (I know) want to talk about their feelings, frustrations, relationships, insecurities etc., when given a good example and opening up a little at first. I learned to do that a couple of years ago, when I was going through difficult times. Went to meet a friend for a couple of beers, started slowly talking, without whining or complaining, about things that make me insecure and we realized opening up and talking about all kinds of "non-manly" things that made us feel bad. That friend relationship deepened into totally new level and since then I've gone through same thing with many of my real friends. 1) Open up, 2) Share, 3) Listen, 4) Care. It felt really great to get a SMS a week later saying "how are things and are you feeling better?" Not saying that I am a perfect friend or Mr. Empathy, but I feel that I am a little bit better person than I used to be.

Lapsa 13y ago
You are slowly turning into a girl. Before you'll realize that - you gonna become a transperson :(
- jzzskijj 13y ago
  I'm willing to take that risk, if that's what it takes.
- simplemath 13y ago
  I would be so happy if attitudes like yours didn't exist. C'est la vie. Assholes all the way down.
  - Lapsa 13y ago
    Feed me!

jon_black 13y ago

> That's because nearly all research into healthy aging has found that the key to a long, happy life is not diet or exercise but strong social connections Epicurus believed that three things were necessary for a happy existence: 1. Friends 2. Freedom 3. Thought (as in personal reflection on yourself and your life) I believe that in life there are many doors and therefore many keys. If you find a key and it opens a door, do not assume that all other doors will open for you; likewise, do not assume that what's behind the door you have opened is the answer to life long happiness. It's quite frustrating that as a species we try to reduce such complex matters into such simple rules.

elohesra 13y ago

Has anyone actually read the studies linked by the author to back up his drivel? I'll save you some time: the 2007 study isn't valid even by the low levels of scientific burden required for psychological studies (it's entirely based on self-reporting), and the 1982 study support the opposite conclusion to the author's. In fact, the 1982 study [0] finds that men and women simply have different kinds of friendships, where men are likely to only engage in emotional sharing with their closest friends, and women are more likely to engage in emotional sharing with all their friends. This brings me on to challenging the true point of the article: slating the traditional male gender role. It's no accident that the author turns to the authority of feminists for perspectives on men -- despite that being so laughly outside the remit of feminism -- because the entire point, unstated but present, throughout the article is that women have 'got it right' and men should be more like women. In lieu of any studies which actually support his point (note that only the first two studies in the article actually even discuss his point about male friendships, the rest are an irrelevance), he instead uses anecdote as evidence for a point neither study can support, and then goes on to blame the entire mess on the traditional male gender role. I won't defend the male gender role, because I have no stock in doing so, but I would at least ask that if something's going to be blamed for mens' terrible friendships then we at least provide some proof that men do indeed have terrible friendships. Lastly, the article, like so many in the media, is yet another argument that encourages you to accept its faulty form by providing you with a false dichotomy: the argument begs the question that either type of friend (the emotional numerous friends of women, or the close few friends of men) is a superior type of friend, links some 'evidence' which doesn't support its point, and then encourages you to ask yourself whether men or women 'have it right' before even bothering to prove if there's anything to actually get right in this situation. I will say one thing though: if this is the kind of stuff Men's Journal prints, then either its readership is mostly women, or men sure do love self-flagellation. [0] http://www.peplaulab.ucla.edu/Peplau_Lab/Publications_files/Caldwell%20%26%20Peplau%2082.pdf http://www.peplaulab.ucla.edu/Peplau_Lab/Publications_files/...

alex_doom 13y ago
Men's Journal is basically Cosmo. Bullshit journalism and fluff.

known 13y ago

Google "Men have bigger brains than women, research reveals"

stefantalpalaru 13y ago

Even though we use the same word, friendship in the male culture is a different concept from friendship in the female culture and it is a mistake to judge one with the criteria for the other.

C1D 13y ago

This seems more like a myth to me. I have friend that I have known since we were toddlers. Even though me and him are in different countries we Skype daily! I will be visiting him in August and he's going to visit me in December.

youRallMad 13y ago

Do men suck at friendships? the answer is yes but because most of us never try, Personal Ramble It all starts when we are children. Look at how young boys and girls play. Boys will do things together, play football, play video games talk about things they do (notice the DO, guys like to DO things). Girls will play games around social events, and developing their social hierarchy. Girls learn from a young age how to operate in social groups. boys do not tend to learn these skills until teenage years, until then they will entertain themselves To make the point, say 2 boys have an argument, they are more likely to come to blows, fight and then drop the issue, dealing with the issue. Girls on the other hand will use talking/and social to punish those that they are fighting with. Social exclusion is the general form of punishment for girls that do not follow the established social hierarchy of a school system. This is simply to highlight the differences between boys and girls as children (aka less time for social manipulation in to pre-defined roles) The above i feel is a biological difference in the way that men and women operate even at young ages. This is still in us as adults. (there are a number of studies about this point, boys raised as girls and so on, personally i KNOW that boys and girls are biologically different and in turn you can not just tell someone to be a girl or boy, it is hard coded (trying to highlight that I do not believe that the role of girls and boys are interchangeable as some people imply; I believe trans and other gender identity issues are based on biological triggers)) So moving on, i might be getting to a point In my part of the world men are taught from a young age to be 'strong', 'leaders', 'money earners', 'head of the family'. Men have been exploited throughout history because of this mentality (think men front line of wars, its the mans role to defend his country and not complain (if you ran you got shot), protect our women, and supply our family with money. We are taught to ignore our emotions and to endure (work 8hrs/5days a week for 60 years). This is 1000s of years old, men are the work horses, well minus the very few at the top who pull the strings and certain people use to proclaim that men rule the world. I also believe that we put too much focus on SO to 'complete' our lives (an extension of the idea that a man should support a family). So many people have said that their SO is their best friend and i think this is great. However as a 30 year old male I have one group of friends that have all got engaged at the same time, they all getting married within the same few years and they will be having kids at the same time i am sure. My honest option on this is that out of the 5 guys in that group, 4 of them have been pushed in to it by the girls of the group, and the first couple that started it off, well the guy was told he either asked her to marry him or she would ask him that leap year (last year) Basically what happened was one girl wanted to get married and then using that as a president the other girls banded together and got the rest of the guys to ask them. This might sound like harsh but men need to stop thinking that their lives are about supporting other people, we need to learn that our lives are our own, we are not here to pay bills, support children (if you want to then amazing) but it is not our default roles. Sadly there is such a lack of male roles today that the 9-5 with 2-4 children is now the default. I feel sorry for men, we have been used and abused as wage earners and human targets, we work to support our families all the time self sacrificing our own social well being. i am 30 and spent the last 9 years working on my friendship (balanced between girls and boys these days) and being close with my family. I was one of the most socially difficult people you will never know when young but thanks to lots of practice i can start a conversion with anyone anywhere. I can go to clubs by myself, dancing as an example or the pictures, it is not an issue. I guess i should put in that I have only had few relationships and i have spent more time living on my own that I ever have in relationships but on the flip side, I have a lot of friends (Sounds bad, but i have always feared some girl loading me up with kids and then me spending the rest of my life slaving to support them while they all resent me for never being at home because i am working). One thing i will say is that single guys do tend to socialize together, a lot of my single male friends are all interlinked, and most of my friends in couples are friends with couples. There is very little over lap between these groups. Single guys have different social requirements to men with SOs, and I guess it is a preference to what social groups you prefer. So to all of you what is your priority? to become the default wage earner for a family and then complain that you have no friends? or start making your own path in life, focus on your friends rather than chasing the next SO. Find out who you are, and what you like, and you will have no issues making friends. Be true to yourself, not true to someone else s view of you I guess a summery is... Men and women socialize differently from a young age, i think its hard coded to a large degree. Men have lost their roles in every day life, and (personally) too many men spend their lives supporting family's because they believe it is what is expected off them. I say it's time for a male revolution, a time when men can band together (pack style) and we can entertain ourself and get out of this rat race that is a life of working to raise a family. There are too many people in the world anyway, do you really want to bring someone in to it? where the hell do you think we will be in 10 years given what has happened over the last 10 years. It is time for Males to start redefining their roles in the world and this will start with you.

roymurdock 13y ago

"In Steppenwolf's case, the fact is that, like all hybrid creatures, he lived with the feeling of being sometimes a wolf, sometimes a human being. However, as a wolf he was forever conscious of his human side lying in wait, observing, judging and condemning him; just as the wolf did when he was a human being. For example, whenever Harry in his capacity as a human being had some lovely idea, experience some fine and noble sentiment, or did a so-called good deed, the wolf in him would bare its teeth and laugh him utterly to scorn, indicating how ludicrously out of character all this fine play-acting was in a wild animal of the steppes, a wolf who at heart knew perfectly well that his real pleasure lay in stalking alone across the plains, occasionally blood or pursuing a she-wolf. Seen thus from the wolf's point of view, every human action became frighteningly comic and self-conscious, vain and inane. But it was exactly the same when Harry felt and behaved like a wolf, when he showed other people his teeth or became murderously hostile to humankind as a whole, hating all its hypocritical and degenerate manners and customs. For then it was the human side of him that lay in wait, observing the wolf, calling him a brute and a beast, spoiling and souring all the pleasure he was taking in the straightforward life of a healthy untamed wolf... His position was a lonely one; it was uncanny the way the world left him to his own devices. Other people were longer of concern to him; he wasn't even concerned about himself. The air around him was getting thinner and thinner the more solitary he became, severing all contact with others, and he was slowly suffocating as a result. For the situation now was different. No longer his desire and goal, solitude and independence were a fate he was condemned to. He had made his magic wish and there was no going back on it. However strongly he yearned to re-establish contact with others, however willing he was to hold out his arms to embrace them, it was of no avail: they now left him alone. Yet there was no indication that people hated him or found him repugnant. On the contrary; he had lots of friends. Lots of people liked him. But friendliness and sympathy were the only reactions he ever encountered. People would invite him to their homes, give him presents, write him nice letters, but nobody was able or willing to share his life. He was no breathing the air that the lonely breathe, living in an atmosphere that was still, adrift from the world around him. No amount of yearning or goodwill had any effect on his inability to form relationships." Steppenwolf - Hermann Hesse

gr3yh47 13y ago

"when we were all so freaked-out about seeming gay that we'd leave an empty seat between us at the movies." or, you know, because horizontal leg room...

bluedino 13y ago

I wasn't sure I was supposed to be expecting more as a guy? Most of my male-to-male interaction occurs because of shared interest. Usually a 'man activity' such as working on a car, house, or yard, working out, riding motorcycles, that sort of thing. But there's no talk about feelings or things like that. I could help a buddy cut down a couple trees and nothing of the sort gets discussed. I'll come home and be asked, "So did Mike say how it's going with his new job/girlfriend/whatever?" I reply, "No. Was I supposed to ask him about that?" I think the only time there's any real discussion about things of that sort is the other activity I share with other guys: drinking alcohol

wittgenstein 13y ago

Some men are genuinely not very interested in forming intimate friendships with other males. This does not mean men "suck" at friendship. It just means they prefer to have intimate relationships with women, not men.

Ryoku 13y ago

I find it interesting how focused this article is in the "traditional" male gender role. It doesn't even touch the subject of different friendship types and relations when involving other genders than 'male'. Without denying that sex has it's toll in the physical (duh) and psychological treats of a person, I do believe that traditional gender roles are the only roles taken into account for this article, making a great deal of assumptions on how males act towards friendship. Does anyone know if there are studies such as the ones mentioned in the article that take into account a less black and white view of gender roles or that digs into other types of friendships?