9 ms·

Vkontakte Founder Flees Russia

218 points by azov 12y ago

calcsam 12y ago
Here's to wishing Snowden had asked Putin about this, rather than giving him political cover to orchestrate it...
- jnbiche 12y ago
  And lose literally his last place of refuge capable of withstanding U.S. demands in the world? If he pisses Russia off, he's either in a Russian jail (horrible) or in US hands (possibly equally horrible). Why do you want this? Has he not sacrificed enough of his life? Almost everyone, Russians most of all, know that Russia conducts fearsome mass surveillance of its own population. It was Snowden's revelations about the capabilities and intentions of the U.S. that came as a big surprise to many, and so were most needed.
  - cvbncvbncgbc 12y ago
    He actually did ask a question directly to Putin( I must admit he has guts ) that is relevant to this debate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1yH554emkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1yH554emkY
  - us0r 12y ago
    I'd argue the US would be worse. At least in the Russian jail he could bribe some decent meals.
jsumrall 12y ago
I'm not sure how to articulate it, but I find it immensely interesting that Snowden fled to Russia, while Pavel is fleeing from Russia, both for issues within similar realms.
- JasonFruit 12y ago
  It's not that surprising that people who disagree with their own government would flee to the protection of another, or that the destination government would play it for political advantage.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- DangerousPie 12y ago
  Similar realms maybe, but I still think there is a huge difference between exposing your country's secret service operations and running a popular website. The fact that the former gets you into legal trouble is expected. The fact that the latter does is very concerning.
  - scotty79 12y ago
    He got in trouble for refusal to turn his company into goverment surveillance device. Much like the ones Snowden exposed so there's some symmetry between those situations albeit not obvious one.
  - id 12y ago
    Running Vkontakte in the US would get you into huge legal trouble, considering how many movies and music albums are hosted there without permission. And I think you would be required to share users’ personal data with US law enforcement agencies just as much.
- melling 12y ago
  What's so hard to understand? Hacker News has a lot of naive people who have no idea how the world works. Hey, the 80's called, and if you were born during or after, it's probably time to ask what you don't understand. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/03/20/flashback-obamas-debate-zinger-on-romneys-1980s-foreign-policy/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/03/...
jsumrall 12y ago
I'm not sure how to articulate it, but I find it immensely interesting that Snowden fled to Russia, while Pavel is fleeing from Russia, both for issues within similar realms.
jsumrall 12y ago
I'm not sure how to articulate it, but I find it immensely interesting that Snowden fled to Russia, while Pavel is fleeing from Russia, both for issues within similar realms.
broflosup 12y ago
He made $260 million in Russia creating a copy of Facebook. He sold his shares and resigned. But wait, he didn't _really_ resign. No, it was all an April fools joke! The investors didn't buy it and fired him. He claims the site is now under the control of Kremlin because one of its shareholders is Alisher Usmanov, an alleged ally of Putin. Yet, that guy was a shareholder for awhile now and Durov never complained about him. I don't know. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Sounds like someone is trying to stay relevant by creating controversy and generating hype for a new messaging system that's supposed to protect you from government's eyes.
- codecondo 12y ago
  I think you just helped to generate an extra 50% of the hype they're after.
- domdip 12y ago
  As far as business in Russia goes, this sounds like a fairly normal course of events. Almost every large company has someone Putin-connected at the top, and when the Kremlin wants more control that's how they exercise it. (Either that, or corrupt court judgments that directly change corporate control.) Don't be surprised if there are a rash of allegations of corruption, embezzlement, etc., against Durov. The sad thing about Russia is that they could be true, they could be part of a conspiracy against Durov, or both. You'll never know.
  - 17Crash 12y ago
    "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest." - Winston Churchill
    - happyscrappy 12y ago
      True, but I don't think Putin has thought out his Ukraine folly and Russia will suffer in the long term. The West has become so dominant that Putin can rattle his rusty sabre and everyone says "meh".
RomanPushkin 12y ago
PAVEL DUROV'S 7 REASONS TO STAY IN RUSSIA (12 March 2014) http://rusbase.com/news/author/benhopkins/not-going-anywhere/ http://rusbase.com/news/author/benhopkins/not-going-anywhere...
- buildbro 12y ago
  That whole blog post stinks of propaganda
  - RomanPushkin 12y ago
    Link to russian version on Pavel's personal page: http://vk.com/id1?w=wall1_45616 http://vk.com/id1?w=wall1_45616 Nobody was forcing him to write this. It is exactly what he thinks about Russia. PS But sometimes people can change their opinion in a month :)
    - RomanPushkin 12y ago
      Here is translation of the first paragraph in his post: === In recent months, more and more fashionable to get the theme of emigration from Russia. As usual, I'm going against this trend - I publish 7 reasons to stay in Russia.
    - joshstrange 12y ago
      >> Nobody was forcing him to write this. It is exactly what he thinks about Russia. Just because it was posted to his person page does not mean he wasn't coerced into writing/posting it.
      - RomanPushkin 12y ago
        Oh. Now I think he has a freedom to say whether he was coerced or not.
    - darkhorn 12y ago
      Or may he was pretending that he will stay in Russia.
wil421 12y ago
I wonder what kind of role the US had in helping aid the Ukraine revolution? or what role they will have now that its going to be another west vs Russia/Putin showdown.
acqq 12y ago
Imagine Zuckerberg selling his Facebook shares, then claiming to flee from USA for not willing to give the data from the Facebook to the FBI. Which of course Facebook (just like any other competitor like Google and Microsoft) gives since it's all regulated by the law: https://www.facebook.com/about/government_requests https://www.facebook.com/about/government_requests Disclaimer: I don't know how much Durov actually sold. Any additional info welcome.
- krick 12y ago
  The last time it was 12% (which is all he had of Vk stocks). There's no info of money amount involved, but I susoect if it was something ridiculously small we'd hear about that already from Durov himself, and estimate of how much it was worth is $M300-400.
GuiA 12y ago
In a dictatorship, if the ones holding power want to take control of an internet company holding data about the personal lives of hundreds of millions of people, they do so by ousting the CEO and taking control the hard way. In a democracy with a free market, if the ones holding power want to take control of an internet company which holds data about the personal lives of hundreds of millions of people, they do so by strategically adding members to the company's board who are part of the oligarchy in place. Putin's Russia still has a lot to learn! :')
- aaronem 12y ago
  You're not wrong, precisely, but the former method has the virtues of simplicity, forthrightness, and the presentation of a salutary example to others who might find themselves in a similar position. Also, people from the West have been telling Russians that Russia has a lot to learn at least since the fall of the Soviet regime, if not since the days of the tsars. Some who've given such advice have done so out of good intentions. Others did so with malice aforethought, and have brought about considerable grief in so doing, as for example during the post-Soviet interregnum, when Yeltsin let himself be swindled out of a huge fraction of his country's wealth to the enormous detriment of the Russian people -- I've seen estimates of premature and unnecessary deaths thus caused which range into the low to middle seven figures. Part of the reason why Putin enjoys such wide approval in the nation he governs is because he's not particularly inclined to listen to Westerners bearing gifts, whatever their intentions in so doing may be.
  - piokuc 12y ago
    This sounds like shit, Putin-ordered propaganda to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades. HN is not free from this, apparently.
    - aaronem 12y ago
      Well, the source on which I'm relying most strongly here, especially for estimates of the death toll of the post-Soviet interregnum, is a newspaper whose American-expatriate writers were hounded out of Russia, shortly after Medvedev "succeeded" Putin to the presidency, over a single article satirizing one of "Medvedev's" new policies. I suppose you can argue that these events were merely part of an incredibly recondite plan on Putin's part to substantiate otherwise baseless propaganda of the sort you regard my prior comment to be. I can't imagine how anyone could make such an argument with a straight face, but that's not the same as assuming it's not possible.
buzaga41 12y ago
Doesn't say where/how Russia was doing/trying an illegal move...
barce 12y ago
Facebook will be more than happy to get a piece of VK's users.
- kome 12y ago
  Who tried VK, will never go back to Facebook. VK is like the wild west of the web: you find everything for free, from music, to software, porn, books, etc. Facebook is a prudish and mildly authoritarian walled garden. VK smells like freedom. ;)
  - krick 12y ago
    Smelled, you mean. I'm not saying that all good of Vk was due to Durov, but things are obviously getting more complicated slowly since Mail.Ru group rules it. It can get even worse.
  - Grue3 12y ago
    You can find all these things on Piratebay. Tying all these illegal activities to your social network is highly idiotic.
taco_john 12y ago
So does anyone have a recap of this chain of events? From the last time I heard about this, it sounded like he was bullied into selling his shares to one of Putin's buddies, and stepping down. Then he said he would like to stay in Russia, now he's fleeing?
theorique 12y ago
Maybe the US and Russia could do a prisoner swap - Snowden for Durov?
vitorbaptistaa 12y ago
Anyone knows how this affects Telegram?
- nomailing 12y ago
  I also would like to know that. it is the only real end-to-end encrypted whatsapp alternative. I hope it stays that way.
  - codesuela 12y ago
    you shouldnt trust closed source software also there are numerous complaints about their security model. See http://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-cryptanalysis-contest http://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-crypta... for example. Why not use an open source, cross device alternative? https://www.surespot.me/ https://www.surespot.me/
    - cyphunk 12y ago
      Telegram clients (ios,andriod,windows,osx,linux) are open source. Server is closed but client code and protocol provides user with verified secrecy. Most criticism seems emotion based but no smoking guns. See comments on http://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-back-we-know-maths/ http://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-bac... also see response to the post you linked to http://telegramteam.tumblr.com/post/70588130319/telegrams-cryptanalysis-contest http://telegramteam.tumblr.com/post/70588130319/telegrams-cr... anyway i dont work for them and Surespot also looks nice. though nodejs+coffeescript at the server worries me a bit.
      - codesuela 12y ago
        I think I mixed up Telegram and Threema so my bad and thanks for the correction/reply.
teawithcarl 12y ago
Why has this aritcle (124 points, in 1 hour) only 15th on HN? Who is flagging this? Vkontakte is larger than Facebook in Russia, and the CEO has to flee due to ugly pressure. This isn't germane technology news?
- piokuc 12y ago
  Interesting, indeed. The article was on the very top a couple of hours ago...
- saraid216 12y ago
  > Vkontakte is larger than Facebook in Russia, and the CEO has to flee due to ugly pressure. This isn't germane technology news? Odd. You have successfully convinced me to flag this, whereas I hadn't before.
- dang 12y ago
  Users are flagging it and moderators applied a penalty. This is standard practice. The only question is whether it should be on the front page at all, given the predictably low quality of the thread. It's not a question of it being off-topic. It's a question of it spurring shallow discussion that is high on agitation (noise) and low on reflection (signal). Consider the distinguishing features of the thread: (1) A top comment that has no substance and is merely an internet witticism to fire up the crowd; (2) A person attempting to contribute substantively accused of being a propagandist for Putin; (3) A predictable Snowden argument whose only connection to the story is "Russia".
  - terminado 12y ago
    Given that the name of this site is "Hacker News" and not "Hacker Threads", one would expect high quality news items to bubble to the top of the main list, and not necessarily high-quality discussions. You might want to reconsider the premise of flagging topics in order to facilitate ease of topic moderation. There's more to this site than merely the user discussion. Are there any metrics that distinguish the ratio of active thread participants, versus quiet lurkers, versus users that seldom view the HN thread at all, and only look at the lists? On a busy day at work, I'll check the RSS feed frequently, but rarely bother with HN proper. In short, this means if an article doesn't make it into the top 30 list, a (possibly-not-insignificant) portion your user base (myself included) might be effectively disinformed of the topic. That's kind of important.
ChrisNorstrom 12y ago
Fun Question: Would any of you consider implementing a last-resort "self destruct system" into your startup? One that completely and totally obliterates all data (writing random data to all discs), causes massive amounts of destruction to the company, permanently dumps databases, deletes all profiles, and sabotages everything you've ever worked for. You might answer this question differently depending on what part of the world you're from. Overall, having a way to instantly invoke "if I can't have it you can't either" might come in handy when dealing with oppressive governments.
- codesuela 12y ago
  how much of Facebook can you zero out before a sysadmin detects it? Probably not enough to matter, especially if there are backups which would lead to a headache for the Ops team but not much more.
contingencies 12y ago
Before scuffing at Russia as a dictatorship, let's get real here. Which domestically-based, major internet businesses holding vast swathes of social network data are run by foreigners in any of two other key national markets: China and the US? Well, can anyone name a single one? No? Aside from AMDOCS, which seems to have jumped ship to the US to spruce up its image, or perhaps to a limited extent (versus China Unipay's domestic, now regional, and increasingly global settlement network) Mastercard/Visa and SWIFT (for international settlements only) in China, I can't. Don't forget what happened to Google in China, and how Schmidt and his political buddy then turned around and visited that great bastion of human rights, North Korea, in a transparent snub to China. Don't forget how Microsoft's Skype hands over surveillance keys for its users' private communications to the Chinese government as a market entry strategy. Politics (control) and business (profit) really have self-organized in to a transnational network of mutual back-scratching oligopolies the world over. Here in China, domestic alternatives to global networks are encouraged (largely by limiting international bandwidth, more rarely by outright censorship) to maximise state opportunities for control and surveillance. Russia seems the same. Perhaps it's time to re-read the preface to Cypherpunks... http://cryptome.org/2012/12/assange-crypto-arms.htm http://cryptome.org/2012/12/assange-crypto-arms.htm The world is not sliding, but galloping into a new transnational dystopia. This development has not been properly recognized outside of national security circles. It has been hidden by secrecy, complexity and scale. The internet, our greatest tool of emancipation, has been transformed into the most dangerous facilitator of totalitarianism we have ever seen. The internet is a threat to human civilization. These transformations have come about silently, because those who know what is going on work in the global surveillance industry and have no incentives to speak out. Left to its own trajectory, within a few years, global civilization will be a postmodern surveillance dystopia, from which escape for all but the most skilled individuals will be impossible. In fact, we may already be there. Recall that states are the systems which determine where and how coercive force is consistently applied. The question of how much coercive force can seep into the platonic realm of the internet from the physical world is answered by cryptography and the cypherpunks’ ideals. As states merge with the internet and the future of our civilization becomes the future of the internet, we must redefine force relations. If we do not, the universality of the internet will merge global humanity into one giant grid of mass surveillance and mass control. The sad thing is, as hyperbolic as this can sound to the uninitiated, it's reality.

218 points by azov 12y ago

calcsam 12y ago

Here's to wishing Snowden had asked Putin about this, rather than giving him political cover to orchestrate it...

jnbiche 12y ago
And lose literally his last place of refuge capable of withstanding U.S. demands in the world? If he pisses Russia off, he's either in a Russian jail (horrible) or in US hands (possibly equally horrible). Why do you want this? Has he not sacrificed enough of his life? Almost everyone, Russians most of all, know that Russia conducts fearsome mass surveillance of its own population. It was Snowden's revelations about the capabilities and intentions of the U.S. that came as a big surprise to many, and so were most needed.
- cvbncvbncgbc 12y ago
  He actually did ask a question directly to Putin( I must admit he has guts ) that is relevant to this debate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1yH554emkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1yH554emkY
- us0r 12y ago
  I'd argue the US would be worse. At least in the Russian jail he could bribe some decent meals.

jsumrall 12y ago

I'm not sure how to articulate it, but I find it immensely interesting that Snowden fled to Russia, while Pavel is fleeing from Russia, both for issues within similar realms.

JasonFruit 12y ago
It's not that surprising that people who disagree with their own government would flee to the protection of another, or that the destination government would play it for political advantage.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
DangerousPie 12y ago
Similar realms maybe, but I still think there is a huge difference between exposing your country's secret service operations and running a popular website. The fact that the former gets you into legal trouble is expected. The fact that the latter does is very concerning.
- scotty79 12y ago
  He got in trouble for refusal to turn his company into goverment surveillance device. Much like the ones Snowden exposed so there's some symmetry between those situations albeit not obvious one.
- id 12y ago
  Running Vkontakte in the US would get you into huge legal trouble, considering how many movies and music albums are hosted there without permission. And I think you would be required to share users’ personal data with US law enforcement agencies just as much.
melling 12y ago
What's so hard to understand? Hacker News has a lot of naive people who have no idea how the world works. Hey, the 80's called, and if you were born during or after, it's probably time to ask what you don't understand. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/03/20/flashback-obamas-debate-zinger-on-romneys-1980s-foreign-policy/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/03/...

jsumrall 12y ago

I'm not sure how to articulate it, but I find it immensely interesting that Snowden fled to Russia, while Pavel is fleeing from Russia, both for issues within similar realms.

jsumrall 12y ago

I'm not sure how to articulate it, but I find it immensely interesting that Snowden fled to Russia, while Pavel is fleeing from Russia, both for issues within similar realms.

broflosup 12y ago

He made $260 million in Russia creating a copy of Facebook. He sold his shares and resigned. But wait, he didn't _really_ resign. No, it was all an April fools joke! The investors didn't buy it and fired him. He claims the site is now under the control of Kremlin because one of its shareholders is Alisher Usmanov, an alleged ally of Putin. Yet, that guy was a shareholder for awhile now and Durov never complained about him. I don't know. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Sounds like someone is trying to stay relevant by creating controversy and generating hype for a new messaging system that's supposed to protect you from government's eyes.

codecondo 12y ago
I think you just helped to generate an extra 50% of the hype they're after.
domdip 12y ago
As far as business in Russia goes, this sounds like a fairly normal course of events. Almost every large company has someone Putin-connected at the top, and when the Kremlin wants more control that's how they exercise it. (Either that, or corrupt court judgments that directly change corporate control.) Don't be surprised if there are a rash of allegations of corruption, embezzlement, etc., against Durov. The sad thing about Russia is that they could be true, they could be part of a conspiracy against Durov, or both. You'll never know.
- 17Crash 12y ago
  "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest." - Winston Churchill
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    True, but I don't think Putin has thought out his Ukraine folly and Russia will suffer in the long term. The West has become so dominant that Putin can rattle his rusty sabre and everyone says "meh".

RomanPushkin 12y ago

PAVEL DUROV'S 7 REASONS TO STAY IN RUSSIA (12 March 2014) http://rusbase.com/news/author/benhopkins/not-going-anywhere/ http://rusbase.com/news/author/benhopkins/not-going-anywhere...

buildbro 12y ago
That whole blog post stinks of propaganda
- RomanPushkin 12y ago
  Link to russian version on Pavel's personal page: http://vk.com/id1?w=wall1_45616 http://vk.com/id1?w=wall1_45616 Nobody was forcing him to write this. It is exactly what he thinks about Russia. PS But sometimes people can change their opinion in a month :)
  - RomanPushkin 12y ago
    Here is translation of the first paragraph in his post: === In recent months, more and more fashionable to get the theme of emigration from Russia. As usual, I'm going against this trend - I publish 7 reasons to stay in Russia.
  - joshstrange 12y ago
    >> Nobody was forcing him to write this. It is exactly what he thinks about Russia. Just because it was posted to his person page does not mean he wasn't coerced into writing/posting it.
    - RomanPushkin 12y ago
      Oh. Now I think he has a freedom to say whether he was coerced or not.
  - darkhorn 12y ago
    Or may he was pretending that he will stay in Russia.

wil421 12y ago

I wonder what kind of role the US had in helping aid the Ukraine revolution? or what role they will have now that its going to be another west vs Russia/Putin showdown.

acqq 12y ago

Imagine Zuckerberg selling his Facebook shares, then claiming to flee from USA for not willing to give the data from the Facebook to the FBI. Which of course Facebook (just like any other competitor like Google and Microsoft) gives since it's all regulated by the law: https://www.facebook.com/about/government_requests https://www.facebook.com/about/government_requests Disclaimer: I don't know how much Durov actually sold. Any additional info welcome.

krick 12y ago
The last time it was 12% (which is all he had of Vk stocks). There's no info of money amount involved, but I susoect if it was something ridiculously small we'd hear about that already from Durov himself, and estimate of how much it was worth is $M300-400.

GuiA 12y ago

In a dictatorship, if the ones holding power want to take control of an internet company holding data about the personal lives of hundreds of millions of people, they do so by ousting the CEO and taking control the hard way. In a democracy with a free market, if the ones holding power want to take control of an internet company which holds data about the personal lives of hundreds of millions of people, they do so by strategically adding members to the company's board who are part of the oligarchy in place. Putin's Russia still has a lot to learn! :')

aaronem 12y ago
You're not wrong, precisely, but the former method has the virtues of simplicity, forthrightness, and the presentation of a salutary example to others who might find themselves in a similar position. Also, people from the West have been telling Russians that Russia has a lot to learn at least since the fall of the Soviet regime, if not since the days of the tsars. Some who've given such advice have done so out of good intentions. Others did so with malice aforethought, and have brought about considerable grief in so doing, as for example during the post-Soviet interregnum, when Yeltsin let himself be swindled out of a huge fraction of his country's wealth to the enormous detriment of the Russian people -- I've seen estimates of premature and unnecessary deaths thus caused which range into the low to middle seven figures. Part of the reason why Putin enjoys such wide approval in the nation he governs is because he's not particularly inclined to listen to Westerners bearing gifts, whatever their intentions in so doing may be.
- piokuc 12y ago
  This sounds like shit, Putin-ordered propaganda to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades. HN is not free from this, apparently.
  - aaronem 12y ago
    Well, the source on which I'm relying most strongly here, especially for estimates of the death toll of the post-Soviet interregnum, is a newspaper whose American-expatriate writers were hounded out of Russia, shortly after Medvedev "succeeded" Putin to the presidency, over a single article satirizing one of "Medvedev's" new policies. I suppose you can argue that these events were merely part of an incredibly recondite plan on Putin's part to substantiate otherwise baseless propaganda of the sort you regard my prior comment to be. I can't imagine how anyone could make such an argument with a straight face, but that's not the same as assuming it's not possible.

buzaga41 12y ago

Doesn't say where/how Russia was doing/trying an illegal move...

barce 12y ago

Facebook will be more than happy to get a piece of VK's users.

kome 12y ago
Who tried VK, will never go back to Facebook. VK is like the wild west of the web: you find everything for free, from music, to software, porn, books, etc. Facebook is a prudish and mildly authoritarian walled garden. VK smells like freedom. ;)
- krick 12y ago
  Smelled, you mean. I'm not saying that all good of Vk was due to Durov, but things are obviously getting more complicated slowly since Mail.Ru group rules it. It can get even worse.
- Grue3 12y ago
  You can find all these things on Piratebay. Tying all these illegal activities to your social network is highly idiotic.

taco_john 12y ago

So does anyone have a recap of this chain of events? From the last time I heard about this, it sounded like he was bullied into selling his shares to one of Putin's buddies, and stepping down. Then he said he would like to stay in Russia, now he's fleeing?

theorique 12y ago

Maybe the US and Russia could do a prisoner swap - Snowden for Durov?

vitorbaptistaa 12y ago

Anyone knows how this affects Telegram?

nomailing 12y ago
I also would like to know that. it is the only real end-to-end encrypted whatsapp alternative. I hope it stays that way.
- codesuela 12y ago
  you shouldnt trust closed source software also there are numerous complaints about their security model. See http://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-cryptanalysis-contest http://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-crypta... for example. Why not use an open source, cross device alternative? https://www.surespot.me/ https://www.surespot.me/
  - cyphunk 12y ago
    Telegram clients (ios,andriod,windows,osx,linux) are open source. Server is closed but client code and protocol provides user with verified secrecy. Most criticism seems emotion based but no smoking guns. See comments on http://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-back-we-know-maths/ http://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-bac... also see response to the post you linked to http://telegramteam.tumblr.com/post/70588130319/telegrams-cryptanalysis-contest http://telegramteam.tumblr.com/post/70588130319/telegrams-cr... anyway i dont work for them and Surespot also looks nice. though nodejs+coffeescript at the server worries me a bit.
    - codesuela 12y ago
      I think I mixed up Telegram and Threema so my bad and thanks for the correction/reply.

teawithcarl 12y ago

Why has this aritcle (124 points, in 1 hour) only 15th on HN? Who is flagging this? Vkontakte is larger than Facebook in Russia, and the CEO has to flee due to ugly pressure. This isn't germane technology news?

piokuc 12y ago
Interesting, indeed. The article was on the very top a couple of hours ago...
saraid216 12y ago
> Vkontakte is larger than Facebook in Russia, and the CEO has to flee due to ugly pressure. This isn't germane technology news? Odd. You have successfully convinced me to flag this, whereas I hadn't before.
dang 12y ago
Users are flagging it and moderators applied a penalty. This is standard practice. The only question is whether it should be on the front page at all, given the predictably low quality of the thread. It's not a question of it being off-topic. It's a question of it spurring shallow discussion that is high on agitation (noise) and low on reflection (signal). Consider the distinguishing features of the thread: (1) A top comment that has no substance and is merely an internet witticism to fire up the crowd; (2) A person attempting to contribute substantively accused of being a propagandist for Putin; (3) A predictable Snowden argument whose only connection to the story is "Russia".
- terminado 12y ago
  Given that the name of this site is "Hacker News" and not "Hacker Threads", one would expect high quality news items to bubble to the top of the main list, and not necessarily high-quality discussions. You might want to reconsider the premise of flagging topics in order to facilitate ease of topic moderation. There's more to this site than merely the user discussion. Are there any metrics that distinguish the ratio of active thread participants, versus quiet lurkers, versus users that seldom view the HN thread at all, and only look at the lists? On a busy day at work, I'll check the RSS feed frequently, but rarely bother with HN proper. In short, this means if an article doesn't make it into the top 30 list, a (possibly-not-insignificant) portion your user base (myself included) might be effectively disinformed of the topic. That's kind of important.

ChrisNorstrom 12y ago

Fun Question: Would any of you consider implementing a last-resort "self destruct system" into your startup? One that completely and totally obliterates all data (writing random data to all discs), causes massive amounts of destruction to the company, permanently dumps databases, deletes all profiles, and sabotages everything you've ever worked for. You might answer this question differently depending on what part of the world you're from. Overall, having a way to instantly invoke "if I can't have it you can't either" might come in handy when dealing with oppressive governments.

codesuela 12y ago
how much of Facebook can you zero out before a sysadmin detects it? Probably not enough to matter, especially if there are backups which would lead to a headache for the Ops team but not much more.

contingencies 12y ago

Before scuffing at Russia as a dictatorship, let's get real here. Which domestically-based, major internet businesses holding vast swathes of social network data are run by foreigners in any of two other key national markets: China and the US? Well, can anyone name a single one? No? Aside from AMDOCS, which seems to have jumped ship to the US to spruce up its image, or perhaps to a limited extent (versus China Unipay's domestic, now regional, and increasingly global settlement network) Mastercard/Visa and SWIFT (for international settlements only) in China, I can't. Don't forget what happened to Google in China, and how Schmidt and his political buddy then turned around and visited that great bastion of human rights, North Korea, in a transparent snub to China. Don't forget how Microsoft's Skype hands over surveillance keys for its users' private communications to the Chinese government as a market entry strategy. Politics (control) and business (profit) really have self-organized in to a transnational network of mutual back-scratching oligopolies the world over. Here in China, domestic alternatives to global networks are encouraged (largely by limiting international bandwidth, more rarely by outright censorship) to maximise state opportunities for control and surveillance. Russia seems the same. Perhaps it's time to re-read the preface to Cypherpunks... http://cryptome.org/2012/12/assange-crypto-arms.htm http://cryptome.org/2012/12/assange-crypto-arms.htm The world is not sliding, but galloping into a new transnational dystopia. This development has not been properly recognized outside of national security circles. It has been hidden by secrecy, complexity and scale. The internet, our greatest tool of emancipation, has been transformed into the most dangerous facilitator of totalitarianism we have ever seen. The internet is a threat to human civilization. These transformations have come about silently, because those who know what is going on work in the global surveillance industry and have no incentives to speak out. Left to its own trajectory, within a few years, global civilization will be a postmodern surveillance dystopia, from which escape for all but the most skilled individuals will be impossible. In fact, we may already be there. Recall that states are the systems which determine where and how coercive force is consistently applied. The question of how much coercive force can seep into the platonic realm of the internet from the physical world is answered by cryptography and the cypherpunks’ ideals. As states merge with the internet and the future of our civilization becomes the future of the internet, we must redefine force relations. If we do not, the universality of the internet will merge global humanity into one giant grid of mass surveillance and mass control. The sad thing is, as hyperbolic as this can sound to the uninitiated, it's reality.