8 ms·

I for one loathe the term "Rockstar" programmer. For those of us over 40, it connotes someone who is young, with no familial commitments, can work 80+ hours a

by gregd 12y ago

I for one loathe the term "Rockstar" programmer. For those of us over 40, it connotes someone who is young, with no familial commitments, can work 80+ hours a week, only needs RedBull and Mountain Dew to exist, has no loyalty and will burn out by the time they're 30. I for one run away from any company looking to hire a "Rockstar" anything. It's overused and abused.

yukichan 12y ago
I think it goes both ways. Younger engineers need to not avoid hiring old people because of fear of being a culture misfit and older engineers need to stop being self-conscious of their age all the time. Both can be a little bit more flexible and learn more about what other people like and appreciate the diversity that different ages can bring the workspaces. Both sides need to realize that the generalizations are all unrealistic. Young engineers aren't running around with pacifiers in their mouth pissing all over the floor and older people aren't losing their dentures in the snack area and falling asleep at their desk every day at 2pm dreaming about retirement. I say that as an engineer nearing my 40's.
jmagoon 12y ago
Can we also add "Ninja" and "Genius" to the list of abused recruitment buzzwords? And don't even get me started on "passion". (David Mitchell's take: http://youtu.be/Bz2-49q6DOI http://youtu.be/Bz2-49q6DOI)
- Karunamon 12y ago
  I've got to disagree with you on the last one. Personally, I'd rather work with a developer (and hire, should I ever end up in such a position) someone who writes code because it's what they love to do first and because it happens to pay the bills second. Profit motive is powerful, but I'd argue that doing what you love beats all else. I read a study once that found greater financial incentives are correlated with lower quality of work (might have been productivity), but I can't seem to mumble the right google incantation to bring it up again. I'll post it here if I come across it.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    I agree that passion is valuable, but expect me to be passionate about coding and solving problems, please don't expect me to be passionate about your company before I even fully understand who you are and what you're doing.
    - PeterisP 12y ago
      For quite many companies there are people who are passionate about that company and their goals even if they don't [yet] work there. E.g., some high-profile programmer posts about Oculus Rift impled that, and there are many niche-cases for specific business areas. If you don't understand what the company is and what they're doing, then it's reasonable that you'll be at a disadvantage compared to people who did understand all that before applying for the job and likely applied because of that.
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        I've always done research, but there's usually a lot of hugely relevant information that's not going to be very publicly available. Oculus is a bad example - most companies are not high profile, in a space with few other significant players that has been romanticized by sci-fi media for decades. Of course, there are always going to be idiots blindly excited by what they imagine, but those aren't the good hires - the best hires learn what they can, then pick the best option, then pursue it passionately.
    - briantakita 12y ago
      Passion for continuous improvement is important as well. Passion is a double edged sword. I've known people who were passionate and misguided. Their passion to propagate their misguided viewpoint was a drain on the team and caused much drama.
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        Agreed.
      - 12y ago
- webwright 12y ago
  I'll disagree with the last one. Whanever I hire for, I always look for "passion for the craft" - whether it's design, code, marketing, or whatever. A great question is "What's the last book or blog post you've read in your field that got you excited?" If people love what they do enough to explore it in their off-time, they'll (usually) be a cut above the rest... And they won't get bored/tired of their work as soon or as easily (assuming you can provide interesting work).
  - johnward 12y ago
    Does that make it a negative if you're time away from work involves family, outdoor activities, DIY projects, etc? I think that what you are saying is what most people look for. Someone who writes code for a living and then goes home to write code to relax. That generally fits the young, unmarried/no kids, recent college grad stereotype. I'm curious because I have been burnt out at work and decided to focus on those things I mentioned. I'm much healthier and productive overall. Yet if I went to an interview I wouldn't have hours of OSS commits on projects I worked on after work to meet most job requirements.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      I'm 30 (dunno if that's "young"), married, and write code to relax... kids might change that though (or at least change how much time I have to relax!). Not that I think everyone needs to work the same, mind you...
      - jwdunne 12y ago
        Kids don't change that. My little girl is 5 weeks old and I find much solace behind my editor during quiet times :) It's reinvigorated with the hope of whatever I learn I can pass down in the future.
        dllthomas 12y ago
        Thanks for the hope! Less time to code is probably the piece of it I'm looking forward to the least.
- pedalpete 12y ago
  Reading this post made me thing about the term 'Ninja', and when the OP was discussing workhorses, I thought "why do we use the term Ninja? it isn't like Ninjas are out winning wars anymore." What was a Ninja? An expert martial artists, and incredibly skilled in his craft, which is no longer needed?
  - lerchmo 12y ago
    A ninja in modern war, would be like a punch-card coder working on a windows app..
mironathetin 12y ago
Right gregd, life is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes endurance to make it beyond 30 as a developer. And, lets face it, we get better, the longer we develop. But then: enthusiasm and vigour is the domain of the young.
- Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
  > But then: enthusiasm and vigour is the domain of the young. Also recklessness, poor judgement and looking good in very tight jeans. ;-)
  - mironathetin 12y ago
    I still look good in tight jeans thanks to running and swimming. Ask my wife ;o)
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      I've never looked good in tight jeans.
      - CmonDev 12y ago
        They are not good for an important organ anyway.
JOnAgain 12y ago
Maybe it does to some people, but I use the term "Rockstar" to connotate: - highly productive - gets features shipped (avoid analysis paralysis) - features rarely have bugs - features rarely have to be refactored when we scale - code is easily maintained by other engineers If such a person were to also work 80+ hours a week, then they would just get that much more done. But I know plenty of people who meet the criteria without working long ours. I think some people who aren't "rockstars" try to correct for it by working longer hours, but I don't think that's what it's meant to imply. Most productive engineer I've ever worked with was "older", had a kid, and a family. Easily as productive as the rest of the team combined.
- krstck 12y ago
  > I use the term "Rockstar" to connotate: - highly productive - gets features shipped (avoid analysis paralysis) - features rarely have bugs - features rarely have to be refactored when we scale - code is easily maintained by other engineers Then just say you want those things! Why use meaningless fluff words that do nothing but attract a very specific demographic and turn the rest of us off completely?
- ramblerman 12y ago
  I'm not sure if you're a recruiter or work with bringing new talent into the team. But when you say "I use the term "Rockstar" to connotate", don't forget many might not interpret it that way. You could be having the opposite effect by using that term in ads. My experience is anecdotal, myself and my peers, but I skip the rockstar/ninja/gurus ads pretty quickly unless the tech/description draws me back in.
theorique 12y ago
An older person can be a rockstar too ... it refers to your ability to crush code, not your ability to ingest red bull. Maybe the word has gotten a bit of negative connotation, along with brogrammer, but it's essentially a good thing at heart.
- yulaow 12y ago
  Probably the true rockstars of a team are, for the big part, all "older people". Experience is a great boost
- gregd 12y ago
  "Crushing" code is another term that makes my hair stand on end. Pretty much use the word "crush" or "disrupt" in any description and it's another red flag for me to move on and not look at your job posting. Maybe I'm just an old fart that will soon be yelling at you kids to get off my lawn. I don't know. It still sounds to me like you'll use and abuse me. If it all rolls up into this "bro" atmosphere, maybe that should die a fiery death? Using these terms is doing IT a disservice. If we expect to be included in the boardroom, involved in making business decisions, it's kind of hard to take someone using high school terminology, seriously. Gag me with a spoon...
  - theorique 12y ago
    If it's just a thin layer of whimsy over a serious business culture, I don't consider it a bad thing. If it is a process of "use and abuse" I agree that it's a bad thing.
Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
"Rockstar" along with "Ninja" and the like feel like they spring from a deep seated insecurity about what the organisation and the people there do and it's value and appeal. Rather than hire someone who felt that a job role needed to be sexed up for it to be interesting, I'd far rather employ someone who was comfortable in their own skin with who they were and how they earned their living and didn't feel the need to either big it up or have their ego massaged by someone else describing them in that way.
- krstck 12y ago
  Exactly. I've seen multiple companies that have their developer ads filled with words like "rockstar" and "ninja" while their other postings (accountants, salespeople, whatever) sound like proper adult jobs. Doesn't exactly scream "developers are taken seriously here".
  - Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
    Yep, there are few adverts for an Accounts Payable Wizard or a Contract Law Guru.
GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
Axl Rose is a rock star too.
zenbowman 12y ago
Yes, I'm always intrigued by that term. So they want a programmer who is into sex, drugs and rock and roll and shows up to work once in a while, always late and never sober?
dpeck 12y ago
Might want to see how things work out for most people with that loyalty bit
leke 12y ago
I consider myself a Guru because I'm old and I don't care about work, materialism or consumerism.
nashadelic 12y ago
Can't agree more. Developers are the _least_ rockstar-like people. In fact they are the polar opposite. The greatest developers I know have long beards, quiet, humble and do it for the love of the craft. Rockstar often conjures up an image of a douchey don't-care-loner guy.

by gregd 12y ago

yukichan 12y ago

I think it goes both ways. Younger engineers need to not avoid hiring old people because of fear of being a culture misfit and older engineers need to stop being self-conscious of their age all the time. Both can be a little bit more flexible and learn more about what other people like and appreciate the diversity that different ages can bring the workspaces. Both sides need to realize that the generalizations are all unrealistic. Young engineers aren't running around with pacifiers in their mouth pissing all over the floor and older people aren't losing their dentures in the snack area and falling asleep at their desk every day at 2pm dreaming about retirement. I say that as an engineer nearing my 40's.

jmagoon 12y ago

Can we also add "Ninja" and "Genius" to the list of abused recruitment buzzwords? And don't even get me started on "passion". (David Mitchell's take: http://youtu.be/Bz2-49q6DOI http://youtu.be/Bz2-49q6DOI)

Karunamon 12y ago
I've got to disagree with you on the last one. Personally, I'd rather work with a developer (and hire, should I ever end up in such a position) someone who writes code because it's what they love to do first and because it happens to pay the bills second. Profit motive is powerful, but I'd argue that doing what you love beats all else. I read a study once that found greater financial incentives are correlated with lower quality of work (might have been productivity), but I can't seem to mumble the right google incantation to bring it up again. I'll post it here if I come across it.
- dllthomas 12y ago
  I agree that passion is valuable, but expect me to be passionate about coding and solving problems, please don't expect me to be passionate about your company before I even fully understand who you are and what you're doing.
  - PeterisP 12y ago
    For quite many companies there are people who are passionate about that company and their goals even if they don't [yet] work there. E.g., some high-profile programmer posts about Oculus Rift impled that, and there are many niche-cases for specific business areas. If you don't understand what the company is and what they're doing, then it's reasonable that you'll be at a disadvantage compared to people who did understand all that before applying for the job and likely applied because of that.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      I've always done research, but there's usually a lot of hugely relevant information that's not going to be very publicly available. Oculus is a bad example - most companies are not high profile, in a space with few other significant players that has been romanticized by sci-fi media for decades. Of course, there are always going to be idiots blindly excited by what they imagine, but those aren't the good hires - the best hires learn what they can, then pick the best option, then pursue it passionately.
  - briantakita 12y ago
    Passion for continuous improvement is important as well. Passion is a double edged sword. I've known people who were passionate and misguided. Their passion to propagate their misguided viewpoint was a drain on the team and caused much drama.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      Agreed.
    - 12y ago
webwright 12y ago
I'll disagree with the last one. Whanever I hire for, I always look for "passion for the craft" - whether it's design, code, marketing, or whatever. A great question is "What's the last book or blog post you've read in your field that got you excited?" If people love what they do enough to explore it in their off-time, they'll (usually) be a cut above the rest... And they won't get bored/tired of their work as soon or as easily (assuming you can provide interesting work).
- johnward 12y ago
  Does that make it a negative if you're time away from work involves family, outdoor activities, DIY projects, etc? I think that what you are saying is what most people look for. Someone who writes code for a living and then goes home to write code to relax. That generally fits the young, unmarried/no kids, recent college grad stereotype. I'm curious because I have been burnt out at work and decided to focus on those things I mentioned. I'm much healthier and productive overall. Yet if I went to an interview I wouldn't have hours of OSS commits on projects I worked on after work to meet most job requirements.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    I'm 30 (dunno if that's "young"), married, and write code to relax... kids might change that though (or at least change how much time I have to relax!). Not that I think everyone needs to work the same, mind you...
    - jwdunne 12y ago
      Kids don't change that. My little girl is 5 weeks old and I find much solace behind my editor during quiet times :) It's reinvigorated with the hope of whatever I learn I can pass down in the future.
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        Thanks for the hope! Less time to code is probably the piece of it I'm looking forward to the least.
pedalpete 12y ago
Reading this post made me thing about the term 'Ninja', and when the OP was discussing workhorses, I thought "why do we use the term Ninja? it isn't like Ninjas are out winning wars anymore." What was a Ninja? An expert martial artists, and incredibly skilled in his craft, which is no longer needed?
- lerchmo 12y ago
  A ninja in modern war, would be like a punch-card coder working on a windows app..

mironathetin 12y ago

Right gregd, life is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes endurance to make it beyond 30 as a developer. And, lets face it, we get better, the longer we develop. But then: enthusiasm and vigour is the domain of the young.

Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
> But then: enthusiasm and vigour is the domain of the young. Also recklessness, poor judgement and looking good in very tight jeans. ;-)
- mironathetin 12y ago
  I still look good in tight jeans thanks to running and swimming. Ask my wife ;o)
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    I've never looked good in tight jeans.
    - CmonDev 12y ago
      They are not good for an important organ anyway.

JOnAgain 12y ago

Maybe it does to some people, but I use the term "Rockstar" to connotate: - highly productive - gets features shipped (avoid analysis paralysis) - features rarely have bugs - features rarely have to be refactored when we scale - code is easily maintained by other engineers If such a person were to also work 80+ hours a week, then they would just get that much more done. But I know plenty of people who meet the criteria without working long ours. I think some people who aren't "rockstars" try to correct for it by working longer hours, but I don't think that's what it's meant to imply. Most productive engineer I've ever worked with was "older", had a kid, and a family. Easily as productive as the rest of the team combined.

krstck 12y ago
> I use the term "Rockstar" to connotate: - highly productive - gets features shipped (avoid analysis paralysis) - features rarely have bugs - features rarely have to be refactored when we scale - code is easily maintained by other engineers Then just say you want those things! Why use meaningless fluff words that do nothing but attract a very specific demographic and turn the rest of us off completely?
ramblerman 12y ago
I'm not sure if you're a recruiter or work with bringing new talent into the team. But when you say "I use the term "Rockstar" to connotate", don't forget many might not interpret it that way. You could be having the opposite effect by using that term in ads. My experience is anecdotal, myself and my peers, but I skip the rockstar/ninja/gurus ads pretty quickly unless the tech/description draws me back in.

theorique 12y ago

An older person can be a rockstar too ... it refers to your ability to crush code, not your ability to ingest red bull. Maybe the word has gotten a bit of negative connotation, along with brogrammer, but it's essentially a good thing at heart.

yulaow 12y ago
Probably the true rockstars of a team are, for the big part, all "older people". Experience is a great boost
gregd 12y ago
"Crushing" code is another term that makes my hair stand on end. Pretty much use the word "crush" or "disrupt" in any description and it's another red flag for me to move on and not look at your job posting. Maybe I'm just an old fart that will soon be yelling at you kids to get off my lawn. I don't know. It still sounds to me like you'll use and abuse me. If it all rolls up into this "bro" atmosphere, maybe that should die a fiery death? Using these terms is doing IT a disservice. If we expect to be included in the boardroom, involved in making business decisions, it's kind of hard to take someone using high school terminology, seriously. Gag me with a spoon...
- theorique 12y ago
  If it's just a thin layer of whimsy over a serious business culture, I don't consider it a bad thing. If it is a process of "use and abuse" I agree that it's a bad thing.

Tyrannosaurs 12y ago

"Rockstar" along with "Ninja" and the like feel like they spring from a deep seated insecurity about what the organisation and the people there do and it's value and appeal. Rather than hire someone who felt that a job role needed to be sexed up for it to be interesting, I'd far rather employ someone who was comfortable in their own skin with who they were and how they earned their living and didn't feel the need to either big it up or have their ego massaged by someone else describing them in that way.

krstck 12y ago
Exactly. I've seen multiple companies that have their developer ads filled with words like "rockstar" and "ninja" while their other postings (accountants, salespeople, whatever) sound like proper adult jobs. Doesn't exactly scream "developers are taken seriously here".
- Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
  Yep, there are few adverts for an Accounts Payable Wizard or a Contract Law Guru.

GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago

Axl Rose is a rock star too.

zenbowman 12y ago

Yes, I'm always intrigued by that term. So they want a programmer who is into sex, drugs and rock and roll and shows up to work once in a while, always late and never sober?

dpeck 12y ago

Might want to see how things work out for most people with that loyalty bit

leke 12y ago

I consider myself a Guru because I'm old and I don't care about work, materialism or consumerism.

nashadelic 12y ago

Can't agree more. Developers are the _least_ rockstar-like people. In fact they are the polar opposite. The greatest developers I know have long beards, quiet, humble and do it for the love of the craft. Rockstar often conjures up an image of a douchey don't-care-loner guy.