6 ms·

Now I work at a large tech company in SV and wont be involved in another startup unless I'm a founder. You're making the right call. I'm probably older than yo

Now I work at a large tech company in SV and wont be involved in another startup unless I'm a founder. You're making the right call. I'm probably older than you and I've done two startups. My career hasn't recovered from the lost time. Total waste. Most startups (by startup, I mean "company focused on such rapid growth that VC investment is mandatory") are pure shit. They fuck up your finances, drain your emotional reserve, and (unless you're a founder) often spit you into junior roles that you won't be able to stand after a taste of real autonomy. If you don't learn much, then you've wasted time. If you do learn a lot (which you can, with a good run as de facto CTO) then you still end up in a junior role, due to your lack of credibility on-paper, for which you're massively overqualified. That's the worst outcome, because you're better off actually being junior if you're in a junior role; overperformance is far more dangerous (in large companies) than underperformance.

zwegner 13y ago
Speaking of "real autonomy", did you put any further thought into your idea of Autonomy Funds[0]? I thought it was very intriguing, if perhaps hard to get off the ground. Definitely would be a good antidote to the kind of SV craziness you describe, but of course not really in line with the status quo. I'd like to see some more discussion on this, and maybe get involved (though my business knowledge is near nil). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5578195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5578195
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  I don't think it's the right structure. I like the idea of open allocation (which is more defined) in a decent company better (although that, too, is rare). Paying typical young people to "do whatever" is not going to lead to the kind of performance that would sustain the fund. Also, I love the idea, but I feel like a lot of the best people are going to still go to YC. There isn't really room for more than one YC, because (like academia, which is all about reputation) most incubators are a reputation drag. Also, I think "startups" generally suck. By startups, I mean companies built to become billion-dollar concerns (and willing to throw culture and people under the bus to get there). I'm starting to think of that as raving narcissism. People should want to do great work without that instant gratification and entitlement of Big Exitzzzzlol!!!!111 A better idea is this: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/fixing-employment-with-consulting-call-options/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/fixing-employ... . The idea is that people sell call options on their time, as a consultant. Let's say my fair market value is $200/hour now. I might sell a call option, struck at $150/hour, exercisable within 5 years. That's probably worth $100-150 because I'll be more skilled in the future. It lets people finance their career needs early, but it also makes the consulting market astronomically more efficient because the option-holders (who would tend to buy underpriced options) have an economic incentive to find work for talented people.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    "The idea is that people sell call options on their time, as a consultant." I really like that idea - there's not currently a marketplace for this, is there?
redmaverick 13y ago
overperformance is far more dangerous (in large companies) than underperformance. Why? Can you explain.
- sitkack 13y ago
  You alienate yourself with respect to your peers and your boss will think you are trying to take their job. Nearly everyone around you will consider you a threat. That is my take and my experience from that statement. The best thing to do after having been tainted by startup education is to go into consulting.
  - michaelochurch 13y ago
    You alienate yourself with respect to your peers and your boss will think you are trying to take their job. Nearly everyone around you will consider you a threat. Bingo. You fucking nailed it. The best thing to do after having been tainted by startup education is to go into consulting. How easy is that? I'm considering that avenue for myself, largely because I'm sick of office politics, re-orgs, and other time-wasting bullshit. With a consulting arrangement, there's no expectation (on either side) of a long-term deal and I think that's better, because most companies renege on their side of the social contract (e.g. investing in their people's careers.) How do consultants find good ($100+ per hour) work? If I could get the same take-home pay as a consultant, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm honest enough to know that I'm not a team player (unless I assemble the team) but I do great work and I'd rather be in a place where that's respected.
    - sitkack 13y ago
      I'll try and follow up on this tomorrow, but I dont have a lot of insight. It is difficult. Lots of hustling.
      - carterschonwald 13y ago
        indeed, having any deal flow in consulting requires A LOT of work building up a reputation of trust and quality with clients (and choosing clients well!)
bri3d 13y ago
As a junior developer there's at least a chance that future engagements will give you a decent work-sample test where you can prove that your experience is worth more than the sum of your "intern" resume. It's even bleaker for non-technical roles IMO: get hired as an "office manager," try to do everything asked to a high standard, and end up as a janitor, concierge, personal assistant, accountant, and collections manager for accounts receivable, all while getting paid as a receptionist.
kamaal 13y ago
The last paragraph is gem. I mean I wish more people understood this. If you are not a founder and made big money. Any other position where you can learn more than your age level peers is taken as arrogance and not qualification. I report to 'architects' who haven't done or know 1% of me. By the fact that they've hopped 10 mega corps and with some neat interview skills always ensures they take home big salaries and bonuses. While technical skills are good. Soft skills, social skills, a strong network is ultimately what really matter in the real world. Focus on that with a occasional focus on tech trends. Once you do that you can relax in positions of authority to make junior devs slog for you.
kelnos 13y ago
I suspect we're roughly the same age; my experience (after 3 startups as an early or semi-early employee) has been mostly the exact opposite. My finances are in great shape, I'm emotionally and socially healthy (the first one ended up hurting in the end, but I got out of there before too much damage was done), and at all three I've held senior development roles and am/was given a lot of latitude and autonomy. I have no delusions that my option grants will turn me into a millionaire, but my salary is good/great, and I'm able to live well below my means (in San Francisco, even). I tend to think startups messing up your career is more of a function of your selection of company and attitude than anything else. It's just a job. It'll only break you if you let it.

zwegner 13y ago

Speaking of "real autonomy", did you put any further thought into your idea of Autonomy Funds[0]? I thought it was very intriguing, if perhaps hard to get off the ground. Definitely would be a good antidote to the kind of SV craziness you describe, but of course not really in line with the status quo. I'd like to see some more discussion on this, and maybe get involved (though my business knowledge is near nil). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5578195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5578195

michaelochurch 13y ago
I don't think it's the right structure. I like the idea of open allocation (which is more defined) in a decent company better (although that, too, is rare). Paying typical young people to "do whatever" is not going to lead to the kind of performance that would sustain the fund. Also, I love the idea, but I feel like a lot of the best people are going to still go to YC. There isn't really room for more than one YC, because (like academia, which is all about reputation) most incubators are a reputation drag. Also, I think "startups" generally suck. By startups, I mean companies built to become billion-dollar concerns (and willing to throw culture and people under the bus to get there). I'm starting to think of that as raving narcissism. People should want to do great work without that instant gratification and entitlement of Big Exitzzzzlol!!!!111 A better idea is this: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/fixing-employment-with-consulting-call-options/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/fixing-employ... . The idea is that people sell call options on their time, as a consultant. Let's say my fair market value is $200/hour now. I might sell a call option, struck at $150/hour, exercisable within 5 years. That's probably worth $100-150 because I'll be more skilled in the future. It lets people finance their career needs early, but it also makes the consulting market astronomically more efficient because the option-holders (who would tend to buy underpriced options) have an economic incentive to find work for talented people.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  "The idea is that people sell call options on their time, as a consultant." I really like that idea - there's not currently a marketplace for this, is there?

redmaverick 13y ago

overperformance is far more dangerous (in large companies) than underperformance. Why? Can you explain.

sitkack 13y ago
You alienate yourself with respect to your peers and your boss will think you are trying to take their job. Nearly everyone around you will consider you a threat. That is my take and my experience from that statement. The best thing to do after having been tainted by startup education is to go into consulting.
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  You alienate yourself with respect to your peers and your boss will think you are trying to take their job. Nearly everyone around you will consider you a threat. Bingo. You fucking nailed it. The best thing to do after having been tainted by startup education is to go into consulting. How easy is that? I'm considering that avenue for myself, largely because I'm sick of office politics, re-orgs, and other time-wasting bullshit. With a consulting arrangement, there's no expectation (on either side) of a long-term deal and I think that's better, because most companies renege on their side of the social contract (e.g. investing in their people's careers.) How do consultants find good ($100+ per hour) work? If I could get the same take-home pay as a consultant, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm honest enough to know that I'm not a team player (unless I assemble the team) but I do great work and I'd rather be in a place where that's respected.
  - sitkack 13y ago
    I'll try and follow up on this tomorrow, but I dont have a lot of insight. It is difficult. Lots of hustling.
    - carterschonwald 13y ago
      indeed, having any deal flow in consulting requires A LOT of work building up a reputation of trust and quality with clients (and choosing clients well!)

bri3d 13y ago

As a junior developer there's at least a chance that future engagements will give you a decent work-sample test where you can prove that your experience is worth more than the sum of your "intern" resume. It's even bleaker for non-technical roles IMO: get hired as an "office manager," try to do everything asked to a high standard, and end up as a janitor, concierge, personal assistant, accountant, and collections manager for accounts receivable, all while getting paid as a receptionist.

kamaal 13y ago

The last paragraph is gem. I mean I wish more people understood this. If you are not a founder and made big money. Any other position where you can learn more than your age level peers is taken as arrogance and not qualification. I report to 'architects' who haven't done or know 1% of me. By the fact that they've hopped 10 mega corps and with some neat interview skills always ensures they take home big salaries and bonuses. While technical skills are good. Soft skills, social skills, a strong network is ultimately what really matter in the real world. Focus on that with a occasional focus on tech trends. Once you do that you can relax in positions of authority to make junior devs slog for you.

kelnos 13y ago

I suspect we're roughly the same age; my experience (after 3 startups as an early or semi-early employee) has been mostly the exact opposite. My finances are in great shape, I'm emotionally and socially healthy (the first one ended up hurting in the end, but I got out of there before too much damage was done), and at all three I've held senior development roles and am/was given a lot of latitude and autonomy. I have no delusions that my option grants will turn me into a millionaire, but my salary is good/great, and I'm able to live well below my means (in San Francisco, even). I tend to think startups messing up your career is more of a function of your selection of company and attitude than anything else. It's just a job. It'll only break you if you let it.