10 ms·

A good friend of mine studied abroad in Australia, and then met and moved in with a Kiwi and then lived in New Zealand with him for a while. He has now moved t

by JPKab 13y ago

A good friend of mine studied abroad in Australia, and then met and moved in with a Kiwi and then lived in New Zealand with him for a while. He has now moved to the US with her. Her brother is a good friend of mine, and is incredibly irritated with his lack of drive and motivation. I've hiked with the guy, and I don't think he's lazy at all. He just doesn't value money, and his view on life is that he's going to teach school, and do whatever it takes to make his lifestyle match his income, rather than the other way around. He told me that this is a cultural thing in New Zealand. Nobody pressures you to achieve a certain level of material success. The view is that if you are self-sufficient, then you've arrived. Nobody judges you for not being a "good provider." Me, as an American, I envy this. I have tremendous pressure from my extended family to make money, so I do. (Plus, in this country, you can't have a decent school system and/or health insurance unless you have a good job)

cryoshon 13y ago
There's also the related phenomenon that in the US, the rich are in the spotlight of society and the poor are decidedly disliked.
- grecy 13y ago
  ...and those who realize they have enough ignore the rich and are out living how they want to be (camping, hiking, taking photos, etc.)
  - thathonkey 13y ago
    I think what you're describing is generally just known as "the middle class"
  - HarryHirsch 13y ago
    and those who realize they have enough ignore the rich If you only could. The problem is that in the US a great portion of taxes are locally raised and spent, and the way of dealing with poverty is to price the poor out of areas where they aren't wanted. To get access to halfway decent schools you need to move to the suburbs, and what's available there in housing is hugely outsized. You cannot save on heating, cooling, cleaning and enclosed space, nevermind the commute, because that economic option does not exist. So you bite the bullet with everyone else and you cannot choose not to play the game.
    - awda 13y ago
      I'm not sure you can't get halfway decent public schools in the cities, but they tend to be local to wealthier neighborhoods. And suburbs in the area I'm from tend to at least have apartments and townhomes, which are a nice middle ground (at least as far as saving on heating, cooling, cleaning, space, cost). The commute still sucks, of course.
      - zhemao 13y ago
        In NYC at least, you don't have to live in a pricey neighborhood in order to get your kid into a good public high school. Your kid will, however, have to do well on a standardized test.
    - zo1 13y ago
      "Locally raised and spent" If only. That would be a great form of funding community governance. Where local communities help themselves up, instead of practically begging for scraps from a wealthy government that really doesn't care until it gets them votes. Change has to come from within. And it won't come so long as people think like you. i.e. "Change can come when funding comes from better places" Which completely ignores the real problems and real difficulties facing real people in those places you seem to not want to live in. Ask yourself why you don't want to live there.
      - lilsunnybee 13y ago
        Local funding means wealthy neighborhoods are lavished with infrastructure, and can provide top of the line schooling and opportunities for their precious offspring. Meanwhile any child unlucky enough to grow up poor is greated with decay and dysfunction at every turn, is never given the education nor the opportunities to succeed, or have interests much above basic survival. Upward mobility is basically zero. Welcome to feudal America.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Property taxes are very regressive in the sense that rich people typically live with other rich people. Ghettos and shanty towns are a direct result of thinking such as yours.
- Varcht 13y ago
  I would disagree that "poor are decidedly disliked" here as a rule. There are plenty of "poor" that are accepted, liked and even esteemed. Think of the starving artists, musicians, olympic athletes, working class poor, the startup set, etc. There is dislike for the poor that resort to crime, thuggery, drugs etc. At least this is how I see it from my middle class perspective.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - shadowfox 13y ago
    > Think of the starving artists, musicians, olympic athletes, working class poor, the startup set, etc Maybe you are right and I am just cynical. But I have felt that some of these groups (with the exception of working class poor) are tolerated because of their success potential than for their status as individuals. And even with that a large number of people appear to disdainful of unsuccessful people in these fields. And about the only people who seem to like the working class poor are politicians who see them as a voting bloc of sorts.
    - thesimpsons1022 13y ago
      the other person is wrong, the poor are definitely hated in america. they are villianized as lazy welfare queens. remember the 47 percent thing with Romney? turn on fox news for 10 minutes, John Stossel even villianizes the homeless. they also try to get rid of school lunches/food assistance for the poor.
      - bronson 13y ago
        Fox News does not represent America.
        hyperbovine 13y ago
        Not all of it, but not none of it either.
jamesfranco 13y ago
"Nobody pressures you to achieve a certain level of material success." I live here in New Zealand and thats quiet true. There are 3 billionaires in NZ and almost no one knows who they are. The only guy that is living a noticeable extravagant lifestyle is Kimdotcom, but that guy's german.
- santaclaus 13y ago
  Didn't James Cameron build himself a luxurious eco ranch out in wine country?
  - anentropic 13y ago
    he's not a kiwi though
- selectodude 13y ago
  What about Lorde?
cylinder 13y ago
If someone is a bit more ambitious but still wants a mix of the aforementioned lifestyle I would recommend Australia. Much bigger population and resources and better opportunities than NZ with a good safety net that doesn't cost the government much and doesn't suffer rampant abuse. I wouldn't recommend NZ for an American, except for perhaps retirement; it would just be too tough, the isolation and small pop. would be crushing for someone used to living in a giant country of 330M consumers.
- santaclaus 13y ago
  I don't know if I'd go that far. As an American who lived in NZ for a few years I got a very pacific northwest vibe from the NZ cities. If you like Portland or Seattle, Wellington is sweet as.
  - gibrown 13y ago
    props for the phrase "sweet as". Made my day.
  - peatmoss 13y ago
    Former resident of Wellington and Auckland checking in to confirm that Seattle feels very much like a big Auckland.
  - chair6 13y ago
    Hah .. I spent the first 25 years of my life in NZ (10 years in Wellington) and have lived just outside of Seattle since 2007. I tell people that the PNW is the closest to NZ that I've seen in America, both culturally and landscape.
  - nailer 13y ago
    Portland to me feels like a smaller Melbourne. So maybe we've come full circle.
- gibrown 13y ago
  I lived in NZ (mostly Christchurch) for about a year, and I think your characterization is way too general. NZ has a similar population to Colorado (where I now live) and a similar land area. It is far away from where my family lives (and hence I am not still there), but "crushing" "isolation" it is not. Kiwis are some of the warmest folks I have ever met. When my wife and I arrived at the airport our friends had forgotten which day we were arriving and had a 3 hour drive to get to us. The random woman who's phone we borrowed proceeded to argue with our friends over the phone about who's house we would stay at that night. We saw similar hospitality everywhere we went. Its a stark contrast to the US.
ScottBurson 13y ago
Fuck your family. Make money for your own reasons, or don't. It has to come from you or you'll never feel successful.
- TrainedMonkey 13y ago
  If your family invested tremendous amount to raise you and send you to a good school, is it bad that they want you to be successful[0]? [0] I think part of the issue is that in U.S. success is judged by how much money you have.
  - ScottBurson 13y ago
    > If your family invested tremendous amount to raise you and send you to a good school, is it bad that they want you to be successful? I have trouble here with the word "invested". There's nothing wrong with giving your children a good education, and there's nothing wrong with wanting them to be successful for themselves and on their own terms. But an "investment" is exactly the wrong way to look at it. An "investment" is something people expect a return on. Having your child do well in life is not a return to you on your "investment". Look again at what JPKab wrote: >> I envy [the lack of pressure in NZ]. I have tremendous pressure from my extended family to make money, so I do. Someone who feels this way is not living their own life. I work hard to make money and be successful too. But I don't do it because someone else wants me to. I do it because I want to, and I do it the way I want to do it. So I don't envy the bucolic New Zealand lifestyle. It's right for some people, I'm sure, but it would bore me to tears in a matter of days. (I'm not saying I couldn't live in NZ, but I would still want to do the kind of work I'm doing.) I used strong language quite intentionally. JPKab needs to figure out what he/she really wants to do in life, and that's going to require putting an emotional wall up to block out all that pressure. It won't be easy, but the reward will be an authentic life.
    - thesimpsons1022 13y ago
      furthermore we don't know if by family he means his parents, or his wife's parents, or even his wife.
dhughes 13y ago
It's like that where I am in eastern Canada people go out smoke weed and drink every weekend if not every night! Most have menial jobs just enough to get by with government assistance. Yet everyone goes to Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Mexico every year and they make nothing. I can see how all-inclusive vacations became so popular. I work with 20-year-olds who laugh if they are sent home at work for doing something wrong or if sent home due to some issue at work. A few have travelled all over Europe, Australia, South America yet make nothing as a salary I probably make four times what they do but can't see how they can afford it let alone me. People are OK with you if you pay your bills nobody freaks out or looks down on you if you aren't super successful or even if you don't work full-time.
- olalonde 13y ago
  Oh god, that was the most hilarious (yet accurate) description of Quebec I have ever heard... Thanks! > I probably make four times what they do but can't see how they can afford it let alone me. I'm sorry to break it to you but you are paying for it through taxes. Ok, that's an over-generalisation but there is some truth to it. It's very easy to get by without a salary in Quebec due to the multitude of governmental services (I recall reading that over 50% of Quebec's economy is driven by the public sector). I have a friend who is on welfare and still manages to go to Cuba every year. Personally, I'm a fan of the attitude (not caring too much about work/money) on an individual level. For a while, I was living the 3 months freelancing / 3 months vacation lifestyle and it was great. That being said, I'm not a fan of the governmental policies which promote it at the expense of other equally admirable attitudes (e.g. entrepreneurship/hard work). It's not all fun and roses. The economy of Quebec has been suffering a lot from those "big government" policies and Quebec has now become one of the poorest province in Canada despite its abundance of natural resources and highly educated population. Of course, I implied here that there is a cause and effect between those policies and the economy but not everyone would agree with me on this. In fact, a sizeable fraction of the population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_solidaire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_solidaire) actually advocates for economic degrowth... Ok, I'm definitely going off topic now.
  - dhughes 13y ago

by JPKab 13y ago

cryoshon 13y ago

There's also the related phenomenon that in the US, the rich are in the spotlight of society and the poor are decidedly disliked.

grecy 13y ago
...and those who realize they have enough ignore the rich and are out living how they want to be (camping, hiking, taking photos, etc.)
- thathonkey 13y ago
  I think what you're describing is generally just known as "the middle class"
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  and those who realize they have enough ignore the rich If you only could. The problem is that in the US a great portion of taxes are locally raised and spent, and the way of dealing with poverty is to price the poor out of areas where they aren't wanted. To get access to halfway decent schools you need to move to the suburbs, and what's available there in housing is hugely outsized. You cannot save on heating, cooling, cleaning and enclosed space, nevermind the commute, because that economic option does not exist. So you bite the bullet with everyone else and you cannot choose not to play the game.
  - awda 13y ago
    I'm not sure you can't get halfway decent public schools in the cities, but they tend to be local to wealthier neighborhoods. And suburbs in the area I'm from tend to at least have apartments and townhomes, which are a nice middle ground (at least as far as saving on heating, cooling, cleaning, space, cost). The commute still sucks, of course.
    - zhemao 13y ago
      In NYC at least, you don't have to live in a pricey neighborhood in order to get your kid into a good public high school. Your kid will, however, have to do well on a standardized test.
  - zo1 13y ago
    "Locally raised and spent" If only. That would be a great form of funding community governance. Where local communities help themselves up, instead of practically begging for scraps from a wealthy government that really doesn't care until it gets them votes. Change has to come from within. And it won't come so long as people think like you. i.e. "Change can come when funding comes from better places" Which completely ignores the real problems and real difficulties facing real people in those places you seem to not want to live in. Ask yourself why you don't want to live there.
    - lilsunnybee 13y ago
      Local funding means wealthy neighborhoods are lavished with infrastructure, and can provide top of the line schooling and opportunities for their precious offspring. Meanwhile any child unlucky enough to grow up poor is greated with decay and dysfunction at every turn, is never given the education nor the opportunities to succeed, or have interests much above basic survival. Upward mobility is basically zero. Welcome to feudal America.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      Property taxes are very regressive in the sense that rich people typically live with other rich people. Ghettos and shanty towns are a direct result of thinking such as yours.
Varcht 13y ago
I would disagree that "poor are decidedly disliked" here as a rule. There are plenty of "poor" that are accepted, liked and even esteemed. Think of the starving artists, musicians, olympic athletes, working class poor, the startup set, etc. There is dislike for the poor that resort to crime, thuggery, drugs etc. At least this is how I see it from my middle class perspective.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- shadowfox 13y ago
  > Think of the starving artists, musicians, olympic athletes, working class poor, the startup set, etc Maybe you are right and I am just cynical. But I have felt that some of these groups (with the exception of working class poor) are tolerated because of their success potential than for their status as individuals. And even with that a large number of people appear to disdainful of unsuccessful people in these fields. And about the only people who seem to like the working class poor are politicians who see them as a voting bloc of sorts.
  - thesimpsons1022 13y ago
    the other person is wrong, the poor are definitely hated in america. they are villianized as lazy welfare queens. remember the 47 percent thing with Romney? turn on fox news for 10 minutes, John Stossel even villianizes the homeless. they also try to get rid of school lunches/food assistance for the poor.
    - bronson 13y ago
      Fox News does not represent America.
      - hyperbovine 13y ago
        Not all of it, but not none of it either.

jamesfranco 13y ago

"Nobody pressures you to achieve a certain level of material success." I live here in New Zealand and thats quiet true. There are 3 billionaires in NZ and almost no one knows who they are. The only guy that is living a noticeable extravagant lifestyle is Kimdotcom, but that guy's german.

santaclaus 13y ago
Didn't James Cameron build himself a luxurious eco ranch out in wine country?
- anentropic 13y ago
  he's not a kiwi though
selectodude 13y ago
What about Lorde?

cylinder 13y ago

If someone is a bit more ambitious but still wants a mix of the aforementioned lifestyle I would recommend Australia. Much bigger population and resources and better opportunities than NZ with a good safety net that doesn't cost the government much and doesn't suffer rampant abuse. I wouldn't recommend NZ for an American, except for perhaps retirement; it would just be too tough, the isolation and small pop. would be crushing for someone used to living in a giant country of 330M consumers.

santaclaus 13y ago
I don't know if I'd go that far. As an American who lived in NZ for a few years I got a very pacific northwest vibe from the NZ cities. If you like Portland or Seattle, Wellington is sweet as.
- gibrown 13y ago
  props for the phrase "sweet as". Made my day.
- peatmoss 13y ago
  Former resident of Wellington and Auckland checking in to confirm that Seattle feels very much like a big Auckland.
- chair6 13y ago
  Hah .. I spent the first 25 years of my life in NZ (10 years in Wellington) and have lived just outside of Seattle since 2007. I tell people that the PNW is the closest to NZ that I've seen in America, both culturally and landscape.
- nailer 13y ago
  Portland to me feels like a smaller Melbourne. So maybe we've come full circle.
gibrown 13y ago
I lived in NZ (mostly Christchurch) for about a year, and I think your characterization is way too general. NZ has a similar population to Colorado (where I now live) and a similar land area. It is far away from where my family lives (and hence I am not still there), but "crushing" "isolation" it is not. Kiwis are some of the warmest folks I have ever met. When my wife and I arrived at the airport our friends had forgotten which day we were arriving and had a 3 hour drive to get to us. The random woman who's phone we borrowed proceeded to argue with our friends over the phone about who's house we would stay at that night. We saw similar hospitality everywhere we went. Its a stark contrast to the US.

ScottBurson 13y ago

Fuck your family. Make money for your own reasons, or don't. It has to come from you or you'll never feel successful.

TrainedMonkey 13y ago
If your family invested tremendous amount to raise you and send you to a good school, is it bad that they want you to be successful[0]? [0] I think part of the issue is that in U.S. success is judged by how much money you have.
- ScottBurson 13y ago
  > If your family invested tremendous amount to raise you and send you to a good school, is it bad that they want you to be successful? I have trouble here with the word "invested". There's nothing wrong with giving your children a good education, and there's nothing wrong with wanting them to be successful for themselves and on their own terms. But an "investment" is exactly the wrong way to look at it. An "investment" is something people expect a return on. Having your child do well in life is not a return to you on your "investment". Look again at what JPKab wrote: >> I envy [the lack of pressure in NZ]. I have tremendous pressure from my extended family to make money, so I do. Someone who feels this way is not living their own life. I work hard to make money and be successful too. But I don't do it because someone else wants me to. I do it because I want to, and I do it the way I want to do it. So I don't envy the bucolic New Zealand lifestyle. It's right for some people, I'm sure, but it would bore me to tears in a matter of days. (I'm not saying I couldn't live in NZ, but I would still want to do the kind of work I'm doing.) I used strong language quite intentionally. JPKab needs to figure out what he/she really wants to do in life, and that's going to require putting an emotional wall up to block out all that pressure. It won't be easy, but the reward will be an authentic life.
  - thesimpsons1022 13y ago
    furthermore we don't know if by family he means his parents, or his wife's parents, or even his wife.

dhughes 13y ago

It's like that where I am in eastern Canada people go out smoke weed and drink every weekend if not every night! Most have menial jobs just enough to get by with government assistance. Yet everyone goes to Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Mexico every year and they make nothing. I can see how all-inclusive vacations became so popular. I work with 20-year-olds who laugh if they are sent home at work for doing something wrong or if sent home due to some issue at work. A few have travelled all over Europe, Australia, South America yet make nothing as a salary I probably make four times what they do but can't see how they can afford it let alone me. People are OK with you if you pay your bills nobody freaks out or looks down on you if you aren't super successful or even if you don't work full-time.

olalonde 13y ago
Oh god, that was the most hilarious (yet accurate) description of Quebec I have ever heard... Thanks! > I probably make four times what they do but can't see how they can afford it let alone me. I'm sorry to break it to you but you are paying for it through taxes. Ok, that's an over-generalisation but there is some truth to it. It's very easy to get by without a salary in Quebec due to the multitude of governmental services (I recall reading that over 50% of Quebec's economy is driven by the public sector). I have a friend who is on welfare and still manages to go to Cuba every year. Personally, I'm a fan of the attitude (not caring too much about work/money) on an individual level. For a while, I was living the 3 months freelancing / 3 months vacation lifestyle and it was great. That being said, I'm not a fan of the governmental policies which promote it at the expense of other equally admirable attitudes (e.g. entrepreneurship/hard work). It's not all fun and roses. The economy of Quebec has been suffering a lot from those "big government" policies and Quebec has now become one of the poorest province in Canada despite its abundance of natural resources and highly educated population. Of course, I implied here that there is a cause and effect between those policies and the economy but not everyone would agree with me on this. In fact, a sizeable fraction of the population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_solidaire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_solidaire) actually advocates for economic degrowth... Ok, I'm definitely going off topic now.
- dhughes 13y ago