7 ms·

The rise of functional programming in Banks

69 points by piokuc 13y ago

brohee 13y ago
"Finally, whilst I have never coded, because Clojure/Scala is on the JVM it’s very easy to pick up for a good Java developer." I guess it's another recruiter wondering why he gets no respect from the cattle he handles...
- chronid 13y ago
  Maybe they were talking about how easy is to find existing libraries that do what you need with that "pick up", instead how easy is "to learn" those languages for a Java dev? Otherwise it makes little sense to me too. :)
  - cafard 13y ago
    " They are low risk simply because Scala/Clojure are built upon the JVM …meaning if tomorrow Scala/Clojure become obsolete, you get to retain the JVM." Oh, well, of course.
- tom_b 13y ago
  Interesting - I mentally parsed that as "easy to try in my environment" and skipped right by the implication of "on the JVM it's very easy" as a Clojure/Scala degree-of-difficulty qualifier. I actually found this article from a non-technical recruiter informative and do respect this effort from the author. It's nice to read from a recruiter who has taken, at first glance, a deeper look at functional programming in the marketplace and shares some insights. There's some hyperbole in the article, but it seems to be coming from a honest perspective.
  - brohee 13y ago
    Actually that may also be a side effect of the half lies techies tell to sell some technical orientations to management... Someone wanting to use Clojure or Scala will certainly use the JVM familiarity as a selling point.
- gone35 13y ago
  Oxford Knight is a technical recruitment agency. None of our consultants have written a line of code... yet. So it seems to be a company-wide feature. It's hard to see though how technically semi-literate technical recruiters can be a good thing at all. Perhaps this explains in part this other telling quote from the article: I recall the candidate in question being perfect in every aspect (CompSci from top university, sound understanding of data structures, algorithms, complexity... coupled with actual practical programming experience, and oh yeah – decent knowledge of Exotic Risk and Pricing). Note the order of qualifications, suggesting that having top marks from Oxford is just as relevant/important as knowing how to crank through data structures/algorithms questions; with having actual programming or domain/relevant experience as just a nice plus. Very telling of their mindset, but also understandable if they are not qualified enough to assess the technical competence of candidates on technical terms alone.
  - AnimalMuppet 13y ago
    I got the impression that this was someone just out of college. "Knowing how to crank through data structures/algorithms questions" probably means knowing how to talk about them in an interview, not lots of real-world experience. If that's the case, top marks from Oxford may in fact be the most relevant fact about the candidate.
    - mathattack 13y ago
      I agree - it sounded very much like someone trying to be "out there writing" rather than a real expert. It was just written like an amateur. That said, who am I to pick on someone trying to improve their online presence?
- mseebach 13y ago
  I worked with Adbul when I got my current job. He's very capable and professional and I can strongly recommend him.
- boothead 13y ago
  Oxford Knight are one of the few "good" recruitment companies in London in my opinion. I've never dealt with Abdul directly, but I've met with some of his colleagues over the years and hold them in higher regard than the bigger agencies. At least he's making an effort to understand the landscape in which he operates, which is more effort than most recruiters in London put in!
- smrtinsert 13y ago
  Usually the recruiter prefaces everything with "I'm nawwwwt reaaally a technical guuy, like I know code, dabbled a bit." A post like this is refreshing imo, at least he's looking to understand the landscape.
dons 13y ago
The Haskell logo is backwards...
fredley 13y ago
Is this the latest tactic of aggressive technical recruiters? Interesting though this article is, forgive me for calling out Oxford Knight here. For those not in the know they are just a recruitment company. One of those that are a constant hassle on LinkedIn. It seems telling them multiple times that I am not interested in a job in finance does not stem the flow of "Forgive me, you must get this all the time, but..." connection requests and InMails, or creepy profile views.
- romanovcode 13y ago
  > connection requests and InMails, or creepy profile views. Isn't LinkedIn suppose to be precisely for this? Also - creepy profile views? Wat.
  - iopq 13y ago
    You can just like feel that they're looking at your profile and salivating over your qualifications. Gross!
yawz 13y ago
Who would design such a Web site (I'm trying to read it with Chrome so I'm not sure if it's a rendering issue specific to Chrome). What could be the purpose of squishing the content in the middle of a useless left column and gigantic, always-visible feedback form?
- jackalope 13y ago
  The space bar also can't be used to advance the content (in the three browsers I tried). I've been seeing this a lot lately in blogs and it's quite frustrating!
  - hyperpape 13y ago
    It can, once you add focus to that little content pane (and you have to do the same for the mouse wheel). Still baffling design, but slightly less broken.
NathanKP 13y ago
I'm flagging this as recruiter spam.
- boothead 13y ago
  I don't think it's spam. Insight into tends in technology adoption are pretty interesting to me. Shouldn't we also encourage recruiters that give any kind of a shit about the tech they recruit for? If there was more of that around maybe I'd get less of the monkey "I see you haz teh skillz" type spam I get in my inbox all the time!
  - gaius 13y ago
    Of course it's spam - normal people wouldn't capitalise Banks like that. Also no one says high freq when they mean HFT. And most HFT shops aren't really hedge funds, they're prop traders...
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  > If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- piokuc 13y ago
  It is not a spam, I can assure you. I found that article and thought it was interesting just because of the subject of it. I thought the trend of functional programming becoming popular in banks would be interesting to other HN readers, too, that's the only reason I've submitted the link. I'm a programmer, not a recruiter, and I'm not affiliated with Oxford Knights or any other recruitment agency.
0xdeadbeefbabe 13y ago
I'd believe the headline "The fall of COBOL programming in Banks" but this one just makes me laugh.
lispm 13y ago
> Easier to write concurrent programs Yeah, sure.
- gaius 13y ago
  The funny thing is, they were worried about concurrent programming in the 80s too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer Guess what, there was no real crisis then either...
  - muhit2002 13y ago
    But hasn't CPU speed peaked? Moors law? Meaning that future performance is going to come from concurrency? Abdul Muhit
    - gaius 13y ago
      They thought that in the 80s too! Read the page... There is nothing new in computing, every 10 years the same things come round again and again. That's why old geezers like me become cynics.
      - muhit2002 13y ago
        Whilst they may have thought of concurrency problems in the 80s as you outline, the problem of concurrency (and subsequently performance) appears to be a bit more genuine now. Processing power has peaked...fact. Now with most PC's being shipped with multi-processors the need for concurrent software is a real one. I do appreciate that there is an enormous list of things that are important right now, that software engineers have to worry about such as good user experience, proper abstraction, security, encryption, privacy, reusability, reliable data storage, good recovery etc etc However to dismiss concurrency issues in a world with peaked processing powers on a single CPU as something of a fashion-fad! Doesn’t sound to me as in synch with what i've been observing. Would be nice to hear from others on this1
        13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
scrumper 13y ago
"One major American bank is pushing a JVM based language that supports functional programming (Scala) as a firm-wide technology. Another two major banks are using Clojure for both real-time risk and pricing, and risk reporting." Any ideas which banks?
- jamesdutc 13y ago
  "He then gives examples of companies like Morgan Stanley in London adopting Scala heavily. This type of adoption could be a great asset for Scala's adoption or it can be a touchstone of regret that people point to when deciding to use Scala. He fears that Morgan Stanley might have a hard time finding the right Scala developers for their projects, and Scala skills are rare. If, for example, unguided recruiters recruit nascent Scala developers, Scala projects' success could become difficult." http://www.infoq.com/articles/barriers-to-scala-adoption http://www.infoq.com/articles/barriers-to-scala-adoption
  - scrumper 13y ago
    Good find, thanks. You've quoted a good part, too - it's something Scala is particularly prone to given how many ways there are of using it. One thing I've seen is a cautious adoption of Akka in distributed systems in capital markets (grid services for analysis computations being one example). First-class Scala support in Akka is encouraging those banks to take a look for specific projects.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
muhit2002 13y ago
Guys, Not sure how it got picked up, but i don't think it's a creppy stalking of my profile...in fact i am flattered. Thank you for your feedback. Couple of things that I think is worth adding here: 1. This article was the first article i ever wrote for Oxford Knight 2 years ago. The date refresh on our website is wrong. My intention was to give something back to the community I serve, and also learn from feedback. Some of it does look like I am stating the obvious, but at the time it wasn’t obvious to everyone. Furthermore, recruitment isn’t designed to be open-source. It’s all about protecting IP at the lowest level, so to open up even a little bit is a big step for us/recruiters….i hope some of you guys can appreciate that . 2. The article was written looking at how I used to recruit in 2006. Shallow, buzz word chasing, educational profile chasing etc. I like to think I’ve evolved a bit since 2006, but do understand I still have a lot to learn an certainly won’t let my non-technical background get in the way. 3. If you guys are interested in seeing some of my more recent stuff I’ve written, it maybe worth jumping on to my quora profile where I write more actively about the technology trends in london….Quora (Abdul-Muhit). 4. Finally, I do feel the pain of how recruitment operates now. Changing a £4 billion industry is not easy, and no technical innovation is going to make a sector of that size disappear anytime soon. I founded Oxford Knight with the view of creating a legacy not a transaction service business. For a boy that was raised by a single mother on benefits I have all the little things I need now! For me it’s all about creating a legacy….something built to last. Therefore, if we have upset anyone of you guys with below par service then please do feel free to email directly, and I promise I will do my upmost to fix it. Best, Abdul co-founder of Oxford Knight
rurban 13y ago
He missed Erlang, heavily used at Wall Street.

69 points by piokuc 13y ago

"Finally, whilst I have never coded, because Clojure/Scala is on the JVM it’s very easy to pick up for a good Java developer." I guess it's another recruiter wondering why he gets no respect from the cattle he handles...

chronid 13y ago
Maybe they were talking about how easy is to find existing libraries that do what you need with that "pick up", instead how easy is "to learn" those languages for a Java dev? Otherwise it makes little sense to me too. :)
- cafard 13y ago
  " They are low risk simply because Scala/Clojure are built upon the JVM …meaning if tomorrow Scala/Clojure become obsolete, you get to retain the JVM." Oh, well, of course.
tom_b 13y ago
Interesting - I mentally parsed that as "easy to try in my environment" and skipped right by the implication of "on the JVM it's very easy" as a Clojure/Scala degree-of-difficulty qualifier. I actually found this article from a non-technical recruiter informative and do respect this effort from the author. It's nice to read from a recruiter who has taken, at first glance, a deeper look at functional programming in the marketplace and shares some insights. There's some hyperbole in the article, but it seems to be coming from a honest perspective.
- brohee 13y ago
  Actually that may also be a side effect of the half lies techies tell to sell some technical orientations to management... Someone wanting to use Clojure or Scala will certainly use the JVM familiarity as a selling point.
gone35 13y ago
Oxford Knight is a technical recruitment agency. None of our consultants have written a line of code... yet. So it seems to be a company-wide feature. It's hard to see though how technically semi-literate technical recruiters can be a good thing at all. Perhaps this explains in part this other telling quote from the article: I recall the candidate in question being perfect in every aspect (CompSci from top university, sound understanding of data structures, algorithms, complexity... coupled with actual practical programming experience, and oh yeah – decent knowledge of Exotic Risk and Pricing). Note the order of qualifications, suggesting that having top marks from Oxford is just as relevant/important as knowing how to crank through data structures/algorithms questions; with having actual programming or domain/relevant experience as just a nice plus. Very telling of their mindset, but also understandable if they are not qualified enough to assess the technical competence of candidates on technical terms alone.
- AnimalMuppet 13y ago
  I got the impression that this was someone just out of college. "Knowing how to crank through data structures/algorithms questions" probably means knowing how to talk about them in an interview, not lots of real-world experience. If that's the case, top marks from Oxford may in fact be the most relevant fact about the candidate.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    I agree - it sounded very much like someone trying to be "out there writing" rather than a real expert. It was just written like an amateur. That said, who am I to pick on someone trying to improve their online presence?
mseebach 13y ago
I worked with Adbul when I got my current job. He's very capable and professional and I can strongly recommend him.
boothead 13y ago
Oxford Knight are one of the few "good" recruitment companies in London in my opinion. I've never dealt with Abdul directly, but I've met with some of his colleagues over the years and hold them in higher regard than the bigger agencies. At least he's making an effort to understand the landscape in which he operates, which is more effort than most recruiters in London put in!
smrtinsert 13y ago
Usually the recruiter prefaces everything with "I'm nawwwwt reaaally a technical guuy, like I know code, dabbled a bit." A post like this is refreshing imo, at least he's looking to understand the landscape.

dons 13y ago

The Haskell logo is backwards...

fredley 13y ago

Is this the latest tactic of aggressive technical recruiters? Interesting though this article is, forgive me for calling out Oxford Knight here. For those not in the know they are just a recruitment company. One of those that are a constant hassle on LinkedIn. It seems telling them multiple times that I am not interested in a job in finance does not stem the flow of "Forgive me, you must get this all the time, but..." connection requests and InMails, or creepy profile views.

romanovcode 13y ago
> connection requests and InMails, or creepy profile views. Isn't LinkedIn suppose to be precisely for this? Also - creepy profile views? Wat.
- iopq 13y ago
  You can just like feel that they're looking at your profile and salivating over your qualifications. Gross!

yawz 13y ago

Who would design such a Web site (I'm trying to read it with Chrome so I'm not sure if it's a rendering issue specific to Chrome). What could be the purpose of squishing the content in the middle of a useless left column and gigantic, always-visible feedback form?

jackalope 13y ago
The space bar also can't be used to advance the content (in the three browsers I tried). I've been seeing this a lot lately in blogs and it's quite frustrating!
- hyperpape 13y ago
  It can, once you add focus to that little content pane (and you have to do the same for the mouse wheel). Still baffling design, but slightly less broken.

NathanKP 13y ago

I'm flagging this as recruiter spam.

boothead 13y ago
I don't think it's spam. Insight into tends in technology adoption are pretty interesting to me. Shouldn't we also encourage recruiters that give any kind of a shit about the tech they recruit for? If there was more of that around maybe I'd get less of the monkey "I see you haz teh skillz" type spam I get in my inbox all the time!
- gaius 13y ago
  Of course it's spam - normal people wouldn't capitalise Banks like that. Also no one says high freq when they mean HFT. And most HFT shops aren't really hedge funds, they're prop traders...
steveklabnik 13y ago
> If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
piokuc 13y ago
It is not a spam, I can assure you. I found that article and thought it was interesting just because of the subject of it. I thought the trend of functional programming becoming popular in banks would be interesting to other HN readers, too, that's the only reason I've submitted the link. I'm a programmer, not a recruiter, and I'm not affiliated with Oxford Knights or any other recruitment agency.

0xdeadbeefbabe 13y ago

I'd believe the headline "The fall of COBOL programming in Banks" but this one just makes me laugh.

lispm 13y ago

> Easier to write concurrent programs Yeah, sure.

gaius 13y ago
The funny thing is, they were worried about concurrent programming in the 80s too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer Guess what, there was no real crisis then either...
- muhit2002 13y ago
  But hasn't CPU speed peaked? Moors law? Meaning that future performance is going to come from concurrency? Abdul Muhit
  - gaius 13y ago
    They thought that in the 80s too! Read the page... There is nothing new in computing, every 10 years the same things come round again and again. That's why old geezers like me become cynics.
    - muhit2002 13y ago
      Whilst they may have thought of concurrency problems in the 80s as you outline, the problem of concurrency (and subsequently performance) appears to be a bit more genuine now. Processing power has peaked...fact. Now with most PC's being shipped with multi-processors the need for concurrent software is a real one. I do appreciate that there is an enormous list of things that are important right now, that software engineers have to worry about such as good user experience, proper abstraction, security, encryption, privacy, reusability, reliable data storage, good recovery etc etc However to dismiss concurrency issues in a world with peaked processing powers on a single CPU as something of a fashion-fad! Doesn’t sound to me as in synch with what i've been observing. Would be nice to hear from others on this1
      - 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

scrumper 13y ago

"One major American bank is pushing a JVM based language that supports functional programming (Scala) as a firm-wide technology. Another two major banks are using Clojure for both real-time risk and pricing, and risk reporting." Any ideas which banks?

jamesdutc 13y ago
"He then gives examples of companies like Morgan Stanley in London adopting Scala heavily. This type of adoption could be a great asset for Scala's adoption or it can be a touchstone of regret that people point to when deciding to use Scala. He fears that Morgan Stanley might have a hard time finding the right Scala developers for their projects, and Scala skills are rare. If, for example, unguided recruiters recruit nascent Scala developers, Scala projects' success could become difficult." http://www.infoq.com/articles/barriers-to-scala-adoption http://www.infoq.com/articles/barriers-to-scala-adoption
- scrumper 13y ago
  Good find, thanks. You've quoted a good part, too - it's something Scala is particularly prone to given how many ways there are of using it. One thing I've seen is a cautious adoption of Akka in distributed systems in capital markets (grid services for analysis computations being one example). First-class Scala support in Akka is encouraging those banks to take a look for specific projects.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

muhit2002 13y ago

Guys, Not sure how it got picked up, but i don't think it's a creppy stalking of my profile...in fact i am flattered. Thank you for your feedback. Couple of things that I think is worth adding here: 1. This article was the first article i ever wrote for Oxford Knight 2 years ago. The date refresh on our website is wrong. My intention was to give something back to the community I serve, and also learn from feedback. Some of it does look like I am stating the obvious, but at the time it wasn’t obvious to everyone. Furthermore, recruitment isn’t designed to be open-source. It’s all about protecting IP at the lowest level, so to open up even a little bit is a big step for us/recruiters….i hope some of you guys can appreciate that . 2. The article was written looking at how I used to recruit in 2006. Shallow, buzz word chasing, educational profile chasing etc. I like to think I’ve evolved a bit since 2006, but do understand I still have a lot to learn an certainly won’t let my non-technical background get in the way. 3. If you guys are interested in seeing some of my more recent stuff I’ve written, it maybe worth jumping on to my quora profile where I write more actively about the technology trends in london….Quora (Abdul-Muhit). 4. Finally, I do feel the pain of how recruitment operates now. Changing a £4 billion industry is not easy, and no technical innovation is going to make a sector of that size disappear anytime soon. I founded Oxford Knight with the view of creating a legacy not a transaction service business. For a boy that was raised by a single mother on benefits I have all the little things I need now! For me it’s all about creating a legacy….something built to last. Therefore, if we have upset anyone of you guys with below par service then please do feel free to email directly, and I promise I will do my upmost to fix it. Best, Abdul co-founder of Oxford Knight

rurban 13y ago

He missed Erlang, heavily used at Wall Street.