5 ms·

> Developers have steadily marched upwards from Assembly to C to Java to, today, scripting languages like Ruby and Python. Since when does being a dynamic lang

> Developers have steadily marched upwards from Assembly to C to Java to, today, scripting languages like Ruby and Python. Since when does being a dynamic language and not having to have a main() function make you a "scripting language?" I didn't know people still said those words.

giblaz 13y ago
>scripting language It's just a categorization. Not an insult.
- rubiquity 13y ago
  It's a categorization that was created to be an insult.
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  It's a categorization with no meaningful difference. There's no honest reason to create something like that.
harryh 13y ago
It's not the dynamism, or the lack of a main() that makes Ruby & Python scripting languages. It's the fact that you don't have to compile them before executing them.
- mappu 13y ago
  The phrase "scripting language" makes less and less sense in a world where C interpreters exist (e.g. Ch, CSL, picoc, CINT, tcc -run), and in a world where Ruby, Python and PHP have compiled implementations (both JIT and AOT against various virtual machines and native targets).
  - pokpokpok 13y ago
    what terminology do you think is more appropriate for these high level "glue" languages?
    - rurounijones 13y ago
      I think the point is that you cannot group them like that. Static typed languages vs dynamic type languages is a much better separation but even then it is grey. The pejorative "scripting language" was a term that Sun pushed really hard a while ago to separate them from "real" languages (i.e. Java) that you would trust your company to. [Edit] I may have mis-remembered and it it might have been Oracle rather than Sun trying to dismiss "scripting languages" as toy languages at the time.
      - mappu 13y ago
        > The pejorative "scripting language" was a term that Sun pushed really hard a while ago to separate them from "real" languages (i.e. Java) that you would trust your company to. Fascinating. I do believe this without hesitation, but for the sake of sharing this in other social circles, is it the sort of claim that's possible to find a citation for?
        rurounijones 13y ago
        As soon as I wrote it I have tried to find a source I can link to but my google-fu is failing me. I will keep looking. It may have been Oracle rather than Sun.
        aethertron 13y ago
        Here's this from Oracle (I think), might be relevant: http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/java_javascript.xml http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/java_javascript.xml
        rurounijones 13y ago
        I remember reading about it in an article where they got their hands on a "guideline document" for an expo (One of the big Java ones) for Sun/Oracle people. In it it basically talked about the need for constant low-level differentiation and playing-down of scripting languages. The link you posted above is the kind of thing this encouraged. Don't be actively hostile but more "Oh, a scripting language? How cute"
CmonDev 13y ago
Because they are more often used for scripting then anything else. Let's not add political correctness to programming.
- illumen 13y ago
  "Because they are more often used for scripting then anything else. Let's not add political correctness to programming." Citation? You're just making stuff up.
  - CmonDev 13y ago
    python.org Look at main page: "Python is a programming language that lets you work quickly and integrate systems more effectively." - it's about integration (where dynamic scripting can shine). Look into history: https://docs.python.org/2/faq/general.html#id6 https://docs.python.org/2/faq/general.html#id6 "It occurred to me that a scripting language with a syntax like ABC but with access to the Amoeba system calls would fill the need." - it was created as a scripting language. Look into FAQ about compilation: https://docs.python.org/2/faq/design.html#can-python-be-compiled-to-machine-code-c-or-some-other-language https://docs.python.org/2/faq/design.html#can-python-be-comp... "Can Python be compiled ...? Not easily. ... a “compiled” Python program would probably consist mostly of calls into the Python run-time system, even for seemingly simple operations like x+1. ... ... improves the start-up time of Python scripts. ... Note that the main script executed by Python ... Usually main scripts are quite short, so this doesn’t cost much speed." - no comments. Of course now it's increasingly being marketed as a general purpose programming language because it makes devs feel better.
    - illumen 13y ago
      Marketing is not evidence. Stop making stuff up. Mods: Please delete my account. I'm done.
- rubiquity 13y ago
  Right, because people aren't building real systems with Python and Ruby. We're just building toy systems, duh! Scripting language is a pejorative.

giblaz 13y ago

>scripting language It's just a categorization. Not an insult.

rubiquity 13y ago
It's a categorization that was created to be an insult.
marcosdumay 13y ago
It's a categorization with no meaningful difference. There's no honest reason to create something like that.

harryh 13y ago

It's not the dynamism, or the lack of a main() that makes Ruby & Python scripting languages. It's the fact that you don't have to compile them before executing them.

mappu 13y ago
The phrase "scripting language" makes less and less sense in a world where C interpreters exist (e.g. Ch, CSL, picoc, CINT, tcc -run), and in a world where Ruby, Python and PHP have compiled implementations (both JIT and AOT against various virtual machines and native targets).
- pokpokpok 13y ago
  what terminology do you think is more appropriate for these high level "glue" languages?
  - rurounijones 13y ago
    I think the point is that you cannot group them like that. Static typed languages vs dynamic type languages is a much better separation but even then it is grey. The pejorative "scripting language" was a term that Sun pushed really hard a while ago to separate them from "real" languages (i.e. Java) that you would trust your company to. [Edit] I may have mis-remembered and it it might have been Oracle rather than Sun trying to dismiss "scripting languages" as toy languages at the time.
    - mappu 13y ago
      > The pejorative "scripting language" was a term that Sun pushed really hard a while ago to separate them from "real" languages (i.e. Java) that you would trust your company to. Fascinating. I do believe this without hesitation, but for the sake of sharing this in other social circles, is it the sort of claim that's possible to find a citation for?
      - rurounijones 13y ago
        As soon as I wrote it I have tried to find a source I can link to but my google-fu is failing me. I will keep looking. It may have been Oracle rather than Sun.
        aethertron 13y ago
        Here's this from Oracle (I think), might be relevant: http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/java_javascript.xml http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/java_javascript.xml
        rurounijones 13y ago
        I remember reading about it in an article where they got their hands on a "guideline document" for an expo (One of the big Java ones) for Sun/Oracle people. In it it basically talked about the need for constant low-level differentiation and playing-down of scripting languages. The link you posted above is the kind of thing this encouraged. Don't be actively hostile but more "Oh, a scripting language? How cute"

CmonDev 13y ago

Because they are more often used for scripting then anything else. Let's not add political correctness to programming.

illumen 13y ago
"Because they are more often used for scripting then anything else. Let's not add political correctness to programming." Citation? You're just making stuff up.
- CmonDev 13y ago
  python.org Look at main page: "Python is a programming language that lets you work quickly and integrate systems more effectively." - it's about integration (where dynamic scripting can shine). Look into history: https://docs.python.org/2/faq/general.html#id6 https://docs.python.org/2/faq/general.html#id6 "It occurred to me that a scripting language with a syntax like ABC but with access to the Amoeba system calls would fill the need." - it was created as a scripting language. Look into FAQ about compilation: https://docs.python.org/2/faq/design.html#can-python-be-compiled-to-machine-code-c-or-some-other-language https://docs.python.org/2/faq/design.html#can-python-be-comp... "Can Python be compiled ...? Not easily. ... a “compiled” Python program would probably consist mostly of calls into the Python run-time system, even for seemingly simple operations like x+1. ... ... improves the start-up time of Python scripts. ... Note that the main script executed by Python ... Usually main scripts are quite short, so this doesn’t cost much speed." - no comments. Of course now it's increasingly being marketed as a general purpose programming language because it makes devs feel better.
  - illumen 13y ago
    Marketing is not evidence. Stop making stuff up. Mods: Please delete my account. I'm done.
rubiquity 13y ago
Right, because people aren't building real systems with Python and Ruby. We're just building toy systems, duh! Scripting language is a pejorative.