9 ms·

Michael Lewis hits back

69 points by rberger 13y ago

socrates1998 13y ago
I applaud Lewis' effort and maybe it will sink in this time, but this is not really news for a lot of people. The story is that Wall Street big powerful trading firms have an inside edge against retail (middle class) customers. It's not exactly new. This has been happening for decades. They did it before computers with information, now they are doing it with fiber cable.
- mhb 13y ago
  If they're using their edge to reduce the bid/ask spread of the retail customers to a penny instead of the 25 cents or more that it used to be, how is that hurting retail customers?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - doktrin 13y ago
    Are you referring to decimalization? If so, that doesn't really have any direct relation with HFT. The NYSE famously used to list prices in fractions of 1/8th, and converted to the decimal system around 2001. edit : coolio, I misunderstood the parent's comment.
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      No, he's referring to the lower bid/ask spread that HFTs cause. http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/faculty/milne/322/IIROC_FeeChange_submission_KM_AP3.pdf http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/faculty/milne/322/IIROC_FeeCh...
      - firebones 13y ago
        Related, how do you feel about sub-penny slicing as mentioned here: http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/3519.html http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/3519.html I wish there were more debates between HFT/exchange folks with Hunsader out there because I think it would be illuminating. Both sides seem to stand on their soapboxes and shout, but never truly debate the details.
        yummyfajitas 13y ago
        That's a weird article. Nanex of all people is complaining that people are jumping ahead of HFT with negligible price improvements, making the hfts investment in low latency useless. I mean they pretend its about retail, but the people who lose from subpenny trades are hfts. That's who investor b is, most likely - the fastest HFT. Personally I believe we should re-decimalize - allow quotes at 0.01 cents. This will induce HFT to focus less on latency and more on price improvement.
  - asdfologist 13y ago
    No one is arguing that all HFT firms are bad. But the ones who give kickbacks to exchanges to fulfill orders at worse prices aren't doing anybody a service.
  - MikeCapone 13y ago
    If that was all they were doing, that'd be fine. But read the book. Some exchanges have 150 types of orders that are mostly undocumented and unknown to most regular players, created specifically so that HFT can not do what they publicly appear to be doing, or take incentives without providing liquidity, etc. The public price that everybody seems is outdated compared to the private prices that HFTers see, so they can risklessly front-run people because they already know if a price has dropped or rise, etc. All that stuff isn't just fast market-making.
    - NkVczPkybiXICG 13y ago
      Undocumented? http://cdn.batstrading.com/resources/membership/BATS_FIX_Specification.pdf http://cdn.batstrading.com/resources/membership/BATS_FIX_Spe... The "public price that everyone else sees" is the same price as the HFTs see. These are available on the direct feeds from the various exchanges, and there's no discrimination against non-HFTs. Anyone who pays for it can get it. It's an equivalent advantage to having a Bloomberg - more data, faster.
      - MikeCapone 13y ago
        It isn't. The SIP is much slower than what the HFTers can put together. Read the book, it's in there.
- doktrin 13y ago
  > this is not really news for a lot of people. As a counterpoint, the fact that the NSA was monitoring electronic communication wasn't "news" either. Shifts in opinion and popular consciousness is often times a matter of momentum & critical mass. This book will probably do more to stimulate popular interest in this issue than just about anything that's come before it. As a side note, I'm currently reading Flash Boys and have previously read Dark Pools. So far, I would definitely consider the Lewis book to be the better of the two.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
kolbe 13y ago
I will admit that Lewis has rustled my jimmies. But if he's interpreting this "punching in the balls" as a good guy punching the bad guys, he's mixed up. Electronic trading is the present, and it should be the future. In fact, every market that still exists as a network of people calling one-another or standing in a pit would be made many factors better by opening them up to the public and allowing trades to take place on electronic exchanges. I get scared of what Lewis is saying in the same way it scares me when I hear of school districts banning the teaching of evolution. I'm not scared that Lewis is right. I'm scared that his misinformed screed will actually gain traction.
- diek 13y ago
  I don't think anyone has an issue with electronic trading. It's high frequency trading that has a lot of people (including myself) very worried.
  - fr0sty 13y ago
    What is your definition of HFT? Why exactly does it worry you?
- hristov 13y ago
  That was a rather transparent straw man argument you came up with there. Lewis is not against electronic trading. And he is certainly not trying to bring back the pits. He is against high frequency trading, or the ability of some insiders to obtain an advantage over the ordinary investor.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    ...obtain an advantage over the ordinary investor. Big investor. If you are a retail investor, the HFTs don't know about you until after your 2 lot trade is finished.
    - doktrin 13y ago
      > Big investor. If you are a retail investor, the HFTs don't know about you until after your 2 lot trade is finished. Doesn't that obfuscate the fact that most retail investors interact with the market via various funds and intermediaries - which in turn collectively makes them a "big" investor?
RodericDay 13y ago
>> “What is true,” says Lewis, “is that the sums of money involved — if you spread it across the market — are trivial, it’s a penny a trade. But it’s offensive as hell that rich people are stealing from middle-class people — even if it’s just a penny. There’s also the issue of what HFT does to the stability of the marketplace as a whole. And then there’s the question of the whole screwed-up model it creates for success in life, when the guys who get rich do so by skimming on the market, so all of a sudden the young people at the best schools want to go skimming in the market — like that’s a noble career path.” >> “I don’t understand that argument. The little guy is the big guy. The little guy is not the day trader on eTrade; it’s all the money packed up in pension funds and college endowment funds and mutual funds. The savings of the country is in big institutions.” Michael Lewis seems like a solid guy and I love how there's endless attempts to portray him as a sinister, self-interested actor.
- throwaway201404 13y ago
  Lewis may be a solid guy -- I don't know him, so I can't say. I can say with a great deal of certainty that he hasn't read, or doesn't understand, any of the contemporary literature on market quality. If he did, he'd know that the efficient realization of market impact (you buy and the price goes up) is a property of effective markets. In the absence of actors to ensure this process of price discovery, all traders will pay unfair prices as small changes in supply and demand remain undigested. I would also suggest that "young people at the best schools want to go skimming in the market" is reductio ad absurdum at best and ad hominem at worst, which sours my opinion of his ability to make a cogent argument without resorting to the Wall-Street-bogeyman trope. Then again, I suppose that's his job as a writer -- a story about the meek Canadian David battling the establishment equities market Goliath makes for a better read than a nuanced look at the role of various players in a complex ecosystem. (Throwaway because my views are not necessarily those of my employer.)
  - ganeumann 13y ago
    I'm not sure I understand your argument. Arbitrageurs help with price-discovery and are useful agents, though much maligned. HFT, as Lewis describes it, is not arbitrage, it's front-running. This doesn't add to market quality, it's just information theft.
consz 13y ago
So if the one particular strategy Lewis describes in his book -- inter-exchange arbitrage that inadvertendly beats someone's split up order -- was stopped/prevented, is that the end of it? There are many, many strategies across a million different products that HFTs run that have nothing to do with trying to "front-run" someone's order, many of them market making a product that only trade on one exchange (so no inter-exchange arbitrage to front run anyone) on products that trade an order of magnitude more dollar volume than US equities, e.g. E-mini S&P futures, US or german bond futures complex, etc. Are all HFT strategies bad, or does Michael Lewis have a hard on for this single, particular strategy? My guess is that the overwhelming majority of profits of any HFT firm do not have anything to do with the particular strategy described in his book.
- MaysonL 13y ago
  What do you mean inadvertently? No way is that by accident.
  - consz 13y ago
    When one exchange's offer or bid is taken out (fully traded), there is no guarantee that the same offer or bid will continue to trade on all remaining exchanges. If you took out the remaining shares on all remaining exchanges every time any one exchange's offer or bid traded out, you will lose money -- I've tested this exact strategy before.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- joe_the_user 13y ago
  Well, One could argue that giving someone latency for money is an inherent disservice to every other investor - whatever strategy you are following, you're getting opportunities before everyone else. One approach would be to have exactly one kind of connection to an exchange with a fixed delay level that everyone has to live with. Another approach is to have a small on every kind of transaction (Edit: other claim HFT pay a small fee and I am no expert but it's clear one could decrease HFT by raising transaction fees).
yummyfajitas 13y ago
The phrase "hits back" implies he somehow addressed the arguments against him, as opposed to merely saying "yay publicity".
- asdfologist 13y ago
  Umm, all week he and Katsuyama have been in the media addressing the criticism, e.g. the CNBC debate [0]. [0] http://www.cnbc.com/id/101544772 http://www.cnbc.com/id/101544772
svedlin 13y ago
Folks interested in HFT might like this - HFT firm Virtu has a nearly flawless daily trading record over the past 3.4 years: http://www.businessinsider.com/virtu-hft-only-one-losing-day-2014-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/virtu-hft-only-one-losing-day... Prospectus: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1592386/000104746914002070/a2218589zs-1.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1592386/000104746914... Looking at the S&P 500, it was positive for 55.8% of the trading days between 2010 and 2013: http://www.crestmontresearch.com/docs/Stock-Yo-Yo.pdf http://www.crestmontresearch.com/docs/Stock-Yo-Yo.pdf BofA had 10 trading day losses in 2013: http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2014/02/28/goldmans-trading-revenue-more-daily-losses-fewer-outsize-gains/ http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2014/02/28/goldmans-tra... US equity HFT revenues are around $1.3 billion, making it a pretty small niche compared to wider market activity: "TABB Group estimates that US equity HFT revenues have declined from approximately $7.2 billion in 2009 to about $1.3 billion in 2014."
- NkVczPkybiXICG 13y ago
  Law of large numbers. This is not surprising. EDIT: Law of large numbers. Not central limit theorem. I blame alcohol.
  - asdfologist 13y ago
    Um, what? If anything, applying the theorem in this case would say that profits should be normally distributed, whereas it's fairly common for market makers to have perfect/near-perfect trading records.
    - NkVczPkybiXICG 13y ago
      Sorry, that was vague. My point was that market participants who make many trades will rapidly converge on their mean return, with little fluctuation. If you sample a normal distribution 10M times with a mean of 0.01%, you will very rarely see a negative sum of the samples.
      - 13y ago
JackFr 13y ago
Billy Beane still hasn't been to a World Series let alone won one. Michael Oher was illegally recruited by an Ole Miss booster who skirted NCAA rules by adopting him. Michael Lewis is Malcolm Gladwell with normal hair. He does seem like a solid guy who really knows what he's talking about. That's how he sells books.
- MikeCapone 13y ago
  That's strange logic. Whatever happened or not with Billy Beane, he's absolutely right about the HFT-bank-broker strategies that he singles out in his book. Most of the critics of the book seem to not have read it, sadly..
  - JackFr 13y ago
    I suppose my comment was silly and snarky. Clearly Michael Lewis is a gifted writer. But he's not a journalist, and he takes sides. He uses his enormous talent to demonize some and lionize others, when often the facts of the case could easily be viewed from another perspective. The problem isn't simply that Lewis's critics don't have the facts on their side; it's that they lack his eloquence and his podium. To that end, referring to The Blind Side, the fact that Lewis was a schoolmate of Tuohy at an elite prep school in New Orleans, and the NCAA did investigate the Tuohy-Oher relationship, its not beyond the realm of possibility that Tuohy got away with something in adopting Oher. As to Billy Beane, thanks to Michael Lewis he's touted as a visionary who literally changed the game of baseball, except the teams he put together have never been to the World Series, and over his GM career, the A's are slightly over .500. It's possible that he's not so revolutionary. This is not to say the Lewis gets his facts wrong. He doesn't by and large. But non-fiction is like photography in that it is not a clinical representation, and the same event from different perspectives can be understood very differently.
doktrin 13y ago
Tangential question : What are the barriers to entry to HFT? Or, put differently - how well funded would a venture have to be to realistically compete in this space? Assuming talent (e.g. market knowledge, quantitative skills, ML competence) was not an issue - how realistic would it be to get access to the fiber & real estate necessary to compete with the very few market leaders?
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  Fees million at most. Real estate + connections are commoditized - tens of thousands a month for starting out.
  - doktrin 13y ago
    > tens of thousands a month for starting out. I couldn't find any reports of prices that low. According to one article, at least, Spread [1] charges ~$300k a month.[2] [1] http://spreadnetworks.com/network-map/ http://spreadnetworks.com/network-map/ [2] http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/high-frequency-trading-danger-risk-wall-street http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/high-frequency-t...
    - fr0sty 13y ago
      spread has an interconnect between Chicago and New York but that is not generally useful for HFT stock trading since nearly every execution venue is in New Jersey.
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      My NDA prevents me from discussing pricing. If you look up my resume and do some sleuthing, you can probably piece together the details of where to go for it.
signet 13y ago
Has anyone read the criticism of the book in question? The Amazon review linked to in the article is very informative. I just finished the book and it read like an advertisement for IEX. http://www.amazon.com/review/R3PJO6KJGRMWUE/ref%3Dcm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3PJO6KJGRMWUE http://www.amazon.com/review/R3PJO6KJGRMWUE/ref%3Dcm_cr_pr_v...
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  The review is fantastic. From a quick skim it is spot on in every point - I can detect far fewer factual errors in the review than in the hype about Lewis's book.
  - doktrin 13y ago
    I agree, it appears to be well thought out. I have it bookmarked, and will return to it once I finish the book.
  - firebones 13y ago
    Out of curiosity, since you're a strong defender of HFT here, have you read Lewis' book yet? You mention the hype, but I've found the hype and the substance of the book to be quite different. A lot of the hype on both sides seems to start and end around the first few chapters (one of which was excerpted publicly) and the "60 Minutes" piece. When I finally finished the book, I didn't get the sense that his target was HFT alone. He heaps plenty of criticism on the bankers, the dark pools, the brokers selling order flow of their customers, the SEC's revolving door and apathy, and (implicitly, with exercise left to the reader) the conflicts of interest of the people selling the SEC the systems (MIDAS) that purport to keep the market fair. It's the defensiveness of the HFTs and exchanges (like Direct Edge's O'Brien) that has me a little bewildered at why they feel persecuted in particular, when a better strategy might be acknowledging that there are some systemic flaws and look to fix them before another ill-thought out regulatory approach is put into place. I don't see IEX as a pure white knight, but I do give them props for getting into the arena with a solution for one part of the problem instead of complaining bitterly, spreading FUD and launching ad hominem attacks on authors who are shining light on a whole slew of questionable practices as a lot of the people in the hype machine have done on the financial news channels since the book has been out.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

69 points by rberger 13y ago

socrates1998 13y ago

I applaud Lewis' effort and maybe it will sink in this time, but this is not really news for a lot of people. The story is that Wall Street big powerful trading firms have an inside edge against retail (middle class) customers. It's not exactly new. This has been happening for decades. They did it before computers with information, now they are doing it with fiber cable.

mhb 13y ago
If they're using their edge to reduce the bid/ask spread of the retail customers to a penny instead of the 25 cents or more that it used to be, how is that hurting retail customers?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- doktrin 13y ago
  Are you referring to decimalization? If so, that doesn't really have any direct relation with HFT. The NYSE famously used to list prices in fractions of 1/8th, and converted to the decimal system around 2001. edit : coolio, I misunderstood the parent's comment.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    No, he's referring to the lower bid/ask spread that HFTs cause. http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/faculty/milne/322/IIROC_FeeChange_submission_KM_AP3.pdf http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/faculty/milne/322/IIROC_FeeCh...
    - firebones 13y ago
      Related, how do you feel about sub-penny slicing as mentioned here: http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/3519.html http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/3519.html I wish there were more debates between HFT/exchange folks with Hunsader out there because I think it would be illuminating. Both sides seem to stand on their soapboxes and shout, but never truly debate the details.
      - yummyfajitas 13y ago
        That's a weird article. Nanex of all people is complaining that people are jumping ahead of HFT with negligible price improvements, making the hfts investment in low latency useless. I mean they pretend its about retail, but the people who lose from subpenny trades are hfts. That's who investor b is, most likely - the fastest HFT. Personally I believe we should re-decimalize - allow quotes at 0.01 cents. This will induce HFT to focus less on latency and more on price improvement.
- asdfologist 13y ago
  No one is arguing that all HFT firms are bad. But the ones who give kickbacks to exchanges to fulfill orders at worse prices aren't doing anybody a service.
- MikeCapone 13y ago
  If that was all they were doing, that'd be fine. But read the book. Some exchanges have 150 types of orders that are mostly undocumented and unknown to most regular players, created specifically so that HFT can not do what they publicly appear to be doing, or take incentives without providing liquidity, etc. The public price that everybody seems is outdated compared to the private prices that HFTers see, so they can risklessly front-run people because they already know if a price has dropped or rise, etc. All that stuff isn't just fast market-making.
  - NkVczPkybiXICG 13y ago
    Undocumented? http://cdn.batstrading.com/resources/membership/BATS_FIX_Specification.pdf http://cdn.batstrading.com/resources/membership/BATS_FIX_Spe... The "public price that everyone else sees" is the same price as the HFTs see. These are available on the direct feeds from the various exchanges, and there's no discrimination against non-HFTs. Anyone who pays for it can get it. It's an equivalent advantage to having a Bloomberg - more data, faster.
    - MikeCapone 13y ago
      It isn't. The SIP is much slower than what the HFTers can put together. Read the book, it's in there.
doktrin 13y ago
> this is not really news for a lot of people. As a counterpoint, the fact that the NSA was monitoring electronic communication wasn't "news" either. Shifts in opinion and popular consciousness is often times a matter of momentum & critical mass. This book will probably do more to stimulate popular interest in this issue than just about anything that's come before it. As a side note, I'm currently reading Flash Boys and have previously read Dark Pools. So far, I would definitely consider the Lewis book to be the better of the two.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

kolbe 13y ago

I will admit that Lewis has rustled my jimmies. But if he's interpreting this "punching in the balls" as a good guy punching the bad guys, he's mixed up. Electronic trading is the present, and it should be the future. In fact, every market that still exists as a network of people calling one-another or standing in a pit would be made many factors better by opening them up to the public and allowing trades to take place on electronic exchanges. I get scared of what Lewis is saying in the same way it scares me when I hear of school districts banning the teaching of evolution. I'm not scared that Lewis is right. I'm scared that his misinformed screed will actually gain traction.

diek 13y ago
I don't think anyone has an issue with electronic trading. It's high frequency trading that has a lot of people (including myself) very worried.
- fr0sty 13y ago
  What is your definition of HFT? Why exactly does it worry you?
hristov 13y ago
That was a rather transparent straw man argument you came up with there. Lewis is not against electronic trading. And he is certainly not trying to bring back the pits. He is against high frequency trading, or the ability of some insiders to obtain an advantage over the ordinary investor.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  ...obtain an advantage over the ordinary investor. Big investor. If you are a retail investor, the HFTs don't know about you until after your 2 lot trade is finished.
  - doktrin 13y ago
    > Big investor. If you are a retail investor, the HFTs don't know about you until after your 2 lot trade is finished. Doesn't that obfuscate the fact that most retail investors interact with the market via various funds and intermediaries - which in turn collectively makes them a "big" investor?

RodericDay 13y ago

>> “What is true,” says Lewis, “is that the sums of money involved — if you spread it across the market — are trivial, it’s a penny a trade. But it’s offensive as hell that rich people are stealing from middle-class people — even if it’s just a penny. There’s also the issue of what HFT does to the stability of the marketplace as a whole. And then there’s the question of the whole screwed-up model it creates for success in life, when the guys who get rich do so by skimming on the market, so all of a sudden the young people at the best schools want to go skimming in the market — like that’s a noble career path.” >> “I don’t understand that argument. The little guy is the big guy. The little guy is not the day trader on eTrade; it’s all the money packed up in pension funds and college endowment funds and mutual funds. The savings of the country is in big institutions.” Michael Lewis seems like a solid guy and I love how there's endless attempts to portray him as a sinister, self-interested actor.

throwaway201404 13y ago
Lewis may be a solid guy -- I don't know him, so I can't say. I can say with a great deal of certainty that he hasn't read, or doesn't understand, any of the contemporary literature on market quality. If he did, he'd know that the efficient realization of market impact (you buy and the price goes up) is a property of effective markets. In the absence of actors to ensure this process of price discovery, all traders will pay unfair prices as small changes in supply and demand remain undigested. I would also suggest that "young people at the best schools want to go skimming in the market" is reductio ad absurdum at best and ad hominem at worst, which sours my opinion of his ability to make a cogent argument without resorting to the Wall-Street-bogeyman trope. Then again, I suppose that's his job as a writer -- a story about the meek Canadian David battling the establishment equities market Goliath makes for a better read than a nuanced look at the role of various players in a complex ecosystem. (Throwaway because my views are not necessarily those of my employer.)
- ganeumann 13y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your argument. Arbitrageurs help with price-discovery and are useful agents, though much maligned. HFT, as Lewis describes it, is not arbitrage, it's front-running. This doesn't add to market quality, it's just information theft.

consz 13y ago

So if the one particular strategy Lewis describes in his book -- inter-exchange arbitrage that inadvertendly beats someone's split up order -- was stopped/prevented, is that the end of it? There are many, many strategies across a million different products that HFTs run that have nothing to do with trying to "front-run" someone's order, many of them market making a product that only trade on one exchange (so no inter-exchange arbitrage to front run anyone) on products that trade an order of magnitude more dollar volume than US equities, e.g. E-mini S&P futures, US or german bond futures complex, etc. Are all HFT strategies bad, or does Michael Lewis have a hard on for this single, particular strategy? My guess is that the overwhelming majority of profits of any HFT firm do not have anything to do with the particular strategy described in his book.

MaysonL 13y ago
What do you mean inadvertently? No way is that by accident.
- consz 13y ago
  When one exchange's offer or bid is taken out (fully traded), there is no guarantee that the same offer or bid will continue to trade on all remaining exchanges. If you took out the remaining shares on all remaining exchanges every time any one exchange's offer or bid traded out, you will lose money -- I've tested this exact strategy before.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
joe_the_user 13y ago
Well, One could argue that giving someone latency for money is an inherent disservice to every other investor - whatever strategy you are following, you're getting opportunities before everyone else. One approach would be to have exactly one kind of connection to an exchange with a fixed delay level that everyone has to live with. Another approach is to have a small on every kind of transaction (Edit: other claim HFT pay a small fee and I am no expert but it's clear one could decrease HFT by raising transaction fees).

yummyfajitas 13y ago

The phrase "hits back" implies he somehow addressed the arguments against him, as opposed to merely saying "yay publicity".

asdfologist 13y ago
Umm, all week he and Katsuyama have been in the media addressing the criticism, e.g. the CNBC debate [0]. [0] http://www.cnbc.com/id/101544772 http://www.cnbc.com/id/101544772

svedlin 13y ago

Folks interested in HFT might like this - HFT firm Virtu has a nearly flawless daily trading record over the past 3.4 years: http://www.businessinsider.com/virtu-hft-only-one-losing-day-2014-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/virtu-hft-only-one-losing-day... Prospectus: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1592386/000104746914002070/a2218589zs-1.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1592386/000104746914... Looking at the S&P 500, it was positive for 55.8% of the trading days between 2010 and 2013: http://www.crestmontresearch.com/docs/Stock-Yo-Yo.pdf http://www.crestmontresearch.com/docs/Stock-Yo-Yo.pdf BofA had 10 trading day losses in 2013: http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2014/02/28/goldmans-trading-revenue-more-daily-losses-fewer-outsize-gains/ http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2014/02/28/goldmans-tra... US equity HFT revenues are around $1.3 billion, making it a pretty small niche compared to wider market activity: "TABB Group estimates that US equity HFT revenues have declined from approximately $7.2 billion in 2009 to about $1.3 billion in 2014."

NkVczPkybiXICG 13y ago
Law of large numbers. This is not surprising. EDIT: Law of large numbers. Not central limit theorem. I blame alcohol.
- asdfologist 13y ago
  Um, what? If anything, applying the theorem in this case would say that profits should be normally distributed, whereas it's fairly common for market makers to have perfect/near-perfect trading records.
  - NkVczPkybiXICG 13y ago
    Sorry, that was vague. My point was that market participants who make many trades will rapidly converge on their mean return, with little fluctuation. If you sample a normal distribution 10M times with a mean of 0.01%, you will very rarely see a negative sum of the samples.
    - 13y ago

JackFr 13y ago

Billy Beane still hasn't been to a World Series let alone won one. Michael Oher was illegally recruited by an Ole Miss booster who skirted NCAA rules by adopting him. Michael Lewis is Malcolm Gladwell with normal hair. He does seem like a solid guy who really knows what he's talking about. That's how he sells books.

MikeCapone 13y ago
That's strange logic. Whatever happened or not with Billy Beane, he's absolutely right about the HFT-bank-broker strategies that he singles out in his book. Most of the critics of the book seem to not have read it, sadly..
- JackFr 13y ago
  I suppose my comment was silly and snarky. Clearly Michael Lewis is a gifted writer. But he's not a journalist, and he takes sides. He uses his enormous talent to demonize some and lionize others, when often the facts of the case could easily be viewed from another perspective. The problem isn't simply that Lewis's critics don't have the facts on their side; it's that they lack his eloquence and his podium. To that end, referring to The Blind Side, the fact that Lewis was a schoolmate of Tuohy at an elite prep school in New Orleans, and the NCAA did investigate the Tuohy-Oher relationship, its not beyond the realm of possibility that Tuohy got away with something in adopting Oher. As to Billy Beane, thanks to Michael Lewis he's touted as a visionary who literally changed the game of baseball, except the teams he put together have never been to the World Series, and over his GM career, the A's are slightly over .500. It's possible that he's not so revolutionary. This is not to say the Lewis gets his facts wrong. He doesn't by and large. But non-fiction is like photography in that it is not a clinical representation, and the same event from different perspectives can be understood very differently.

doktrin 13y ago

Tangential question : What are the barriers to entry to HFT? Or, put differently - how well funded would a venture have to be to realistically compete in this space? Assuming talent (e.g. market knowledge, quantitative skills, ML competence) was not an issue - how realistic would it be to get access to the fiber & real estate necessary to compete with the very few market leaders?

yummyfajitas 13y ago
Fees million at most. Real estate + connections are commoditized - tens of thousands a month for starting out.
- doktrin 13y ago
  > tens of thousands a month for starting out. I couldn't find any reports of prices that low. According to one article, at least, Spread [1] charges ~$300k a month.[2] [1] http://spreadnetworks.com/network-map/ http://spreadnetworks.com/network-map/ [2] http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/high-frequency-trading-danger-risk-wall-street http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/high-frequency-t...
  - fr0sty 13y ago
    spread has an interconnect between Chicago and New York but that is not generally useful for HFT stock trading since nearly every execution venue is in New Jersey.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    My NDA prevents me from discussing pricing. If you look up my resume and do some sleuthing, you can probably piece together the details of where to go for it.

signet 13y ago

Has anyone read the criticism of the book in question? The Amazon review linked to in the article is very informative. I just finished the book and it read like an advertisement for IEX. http://www.amazon.com/review/R3PJO6KJGRMWUE/ref%3Dcm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3PJO6KJGRMWUE http://www.amazon.com/review/R3PJO6KJGRMWUE/ref%3Dcm_cr_pr_v...

yummyfajitas 13y ago
The review is fantastic. From a quick skim it is spot on in every point - I can detect far fewer factual errors in the review than in the hype about Lewis's book.
- doktrin 13y ago
  I agree, it appears to be well thought out. I have it bookmarked, and will return to it once I finish the book.
- firebones 13y ago
  Out of curiosity, since you're a strong defender of HFT here, have you read Lewis' book yet? You mention the hype, but I've found the hype and the substance of the book to be quite different. A lot of the hype on both sides seems to start and end around the first few chapters (one of which was excerpted publicly) and the "60 Minutes" piece. When I finally finished the book, I didn't get the sense that his target was HFT alone. He heaps plenty of criticism on the bankers, the dark pools, the brokers selling order flow of their customers, the SEC's revolving door and apathy, and (implicitly, with exercise left to the reader) the conflicts of interest of the people selling the SEC the systems (MIDAS) that purport to keep the market fair. It's the defensiveness of the HFTs and exchanges (like Direct Edge's O'Brien) that has me a little bewildered at why they feel persecuted in particular, when a better strategy might be acknowledging that there are some systemic flaws and look to fix them before another ill-thought out regulatory approach is put into place. I don't see IEX as a pure white knight, but I do give them props for getting into the arena with a solution for one part of the problem instead of complaining bitterly, spreading FUD and launching ad hominem attacks on authors who are shining light on a whole slew of questionable practices as a lot of the people in the hype machine have done on the financial news channels since the book has been out.

deleted 13y ago

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