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Jony Ive shakes up Apple’s software design group
- outside1234 13y agoThis is starting to be a pattern. Although Jony is obviously talented, he sure has driven a lot of talent from the company. At some point, that leaving talent points to a problem with Jony. And then it will be Jony's turn.
- hugi 13y agoWhat talent has Ive driven from the company apart from Scott Forstall and this guy?
- cwe 13y agoJon Rubenstein had plenty of conflict with him (via the Jobs and Ive biographies), and Tony Fadell as well [1]. [1] http://www.cultofmac.com/262334/feud-jony-ive-keep-tony-fadell-returning-apple/ http://www.cultofmac.com/262334/feud-jony-ive-keep-tony-fade...
- pietro 13y agoThat’s enough.
- fidotron 13y agoHe may not get on with Ive, but Apple Maps was Forstall's downfall.
- christoph 13y agoI wonder how possible that would be given the quote in the Jobs biography: "He told Isaacson that Ive had 'more operational power' at Apple than anyone else besides Jobs himself — that there's no one at the company who can tell Ive what to do," the report said. "That, says Jobs, is 'the way I set it up.'"
- outside1234 13y agosee Steve Ballmer
- adventured 13y agoThe only actual legal structure protecting Ive's position at Apple is one in which Cook voluntarily complies with Jobs' stated wishes. That is to say, there is nothing stopping Cook from firing Ive tomorrow, changing his job title or control inside the company. Jobs may have also secured the board's agreement to protect Ive, but that too would rest merely on their voluntary compliance with such. In the corporate world, there's no such thing as a truly untouchable employee. The CEO, the board, or shareholders, someone can always get rid of you.
- gress 13y agoHow many people did Steve Jobs drive from the company on his return? (answer: the CEO, the whole board, and 1000's of employees)
- sirkneeland 13y agoAt some point the Western intellectual canon of rhetorical tropes and logical fallacies will need to be expanded to add the "because Steve Jobs" fallacy which seems to justify anything on the basis of Steve Jobs having done it (without regard to context, or that the party in question is not Steve Jobs)
- gress 13y agoThe point is that Jony pushing a few people out* as he takes control is hardly cause for concern. What would be cause for concern is if the people obviously responsible for Apple, I.e. I've and Cook, were timidly playing corporate politics instead of decisively leading. (* although it seems that the story of Christie leaving because of disagreement with Jony is actually a fabrication) [edit: downvote away, but it would be interesting to know what you disagree with)
- lttlrck 13y agoIt's a bit hard to judge from the outside isn't it?
- droob 13y agoThey mean "falling out", right?
- eli 13y agoFunny looking word, but it's not wrong. Fallout is the noun: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fallout http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fallout
- nardi 13y agoNo, "fallout" is not a noun form of "falling out." For one, "falling out" is already a noun phrase. Secondly, "fallout" refers to the lingering effects of some larger event. It doesn't apply here.
- ScottWhigham 13y agoNot entirely true, as indicated by the link to Webster's Dictionary provided.
- vacri 13y agoRead the definition again, it agrees with nardi's comment.
- ScottWhigham 13y agoI did read it. The usage is correct and the dictionary entry shows that "fallout" is indeed a noun showing "a bad effect or result of something". Sorry - I think you need to read it again because you've clearly downvoted my response in error.
- vacri 13y ago"a secondary and often lingering effect" The "falling out" described in the original comment is not a secondary effect - it is the primary driver of the action. The fallout from the falling out is that Christie left the organisation. A falling out can be the fallout from another action, but that's not the context used here.
- Holbein 13y agoI didn't like those inconsistent style-over-substance design decisions in iOS7. Maybe Forstall and Christie just wanted to be a voice of reason and got sacked for it?
- bluthru 13y agoAre you kidding? iOS 7 strips down graphical elements so that the substance is the style. iOS 6 and earlier was stuffed to the gills with stylization.
- onmydesk 13y agoOutside of the valley bubble skeuomorphism is what people require in order to use the devices. A button needs to look like a button or people are confused. Im talking about customers. Not the people that designed it and live the technology and are bored with it after a few short years. 7 is a travesty, the beginning of the end.
- pcurve 13y agoI own mac, pc, android, ios. With each revision, ios has become harder to use because they keep adding new things without considering holistic experience. Take a look at the Settings in ios7. It's nothing but a list of identical looking settings that go on for pages. Everything is nothing but text and thin lines. A simple color-coded organization, categorization, and minor variation in fonts would've gone a long way. Android's settings isn't much better, but at least things are better marked with text labels and clearer icons. Apple has long crossed that line of less-is-more. They are firmly in the less-is-less territory. Both companies are leaving a lot on the table by being too boxed-in in their thinking, but Android is at least taking more humble approach.
- archagon 13y ago"Take a look at the Settings in ios7. It's nothing but a list of identical looking settings that go on for pages. Everything is nothing but text and thin lines." Err, it's pretty much always been like this.
- _random_ 13y agoHe probably sent him a link to one of those much better iOS flat GUI redesigns from independent artists.
- DatBear 13y agoThe redesigns probably changed the color of the shift button.
- samstave 13y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZp7BvQJnU8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZp7BvQJnU8
- DonGateley 13y agoAwesome video and complete validation of my theory that Ive is trying to eliminate design from user interfaces and make it so that anyone can do it even with MS Word. Lowering the barrier to app creation is all this flat, modern crap is about. The end user's experience is of no consideration at all because they can be easily convinced _anything_ is cool. I can't wait for the backlash. Everyone at apple with taste is either being forced out or quitting so when that backlash comes apple will be left holding an empty bag.
- pseudometa 13y agoJony, please stick to hardware.
- greglindahl 13y agoIt doesn't make any sense to have the hardware and software have opposing designs... that's why they put Jony in charge of both.
- onmydesk 13y agoThe box is the box. The box is supposed to be subtle. The software is the point. Design the software like the box and you have ios7.
- Touche 13y agoHuh, how can hardware and software have "opposing designs"? I'm just an engineer who doesn't understand design so please explain.
- voodoomagicman 13y agoImagine a pink phone w/ a flowery case and a software ui styled to look like starcraft controls.
- pistle 13y agoThis my semi-outsider opinion. Metal. Minimal. Futurism. Refined. Ive. Kitchy. Cozy. Gaudy. Forstall and most things not iOS7 (and iOS7 has compromises) If this includes Christie now, yeah, him too. So much of the UX has seemed to betray the industrial design. It's like Window's old "Hot Dog" color theme. I'm going to guess that Ive pushed to get people in line and the same old flat vs. skeumorphic arguments simmered since that is one specific instance of a larger aesthetic argument. Certain aspects of the OSX are well done, but many parts are dated, klunky, and even garish. Apple hardware looks beautiful sitting somewhere turned OFF or with someone else's app/lication loaded up. The native stuff feels like cheap plastic body kits on refined European sports cars (not the Italian ones).
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- higherpurpose 13y agoWhy? I thought he was in charge of all UX to begin with. The fact that iOS7 came out with such inconsistent design, weird colors, and almost invisible fonts is his fault as much as anyone's, if not more so. He approved everything, and now he's taking it out on the designers because of the bad feedback from the market?
- EGreg 13y agoIve approved it. This was a fiasco second only to the Maps fiasco. Jobs berated those guys. SAD BUT THIS IS HOW THINGS HAPPEN: 1. Apple Maps is headed by Forstall, doesn't get enough resources, comes out sucking. 2. Scott Forstall is forced out the stall... I mean the door. And Steve Jobs passes away. The two biggest advocates of skeumorphism gone. http://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-why-i-fired-scott-forstall-2012-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/tim-cook-why-i-fired-scott-fo... 3. Jony Ive, a hardware guy, takes over the UI. The microsoft-envy kills Apple's mojo. We just have to accept this new crap. OR FOR EXAMPLE: 1. Some people in Florida can't vote properly on a poorly designed butterfly ballot 2. George W Bush comes to power 3. After 9-11, we go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and do nation building (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9SOVzMV2bc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9SOVzMV2bc) 4. US economy falls, many countries start to resent the USA, meanwhile we get Patriot Act and a lot of domestic surveillance 5. All kinds of spy programs and warrantless searches and detaining of citizens is authorized because of "terrorism" And it all started from a butterfly ballot...
- samstave 13y agoWhile that is a wildly crazy comparison... and the conspiracy theorist in me likes it, it is completely naive to think that the war on terror was an emergent event after the butterfly ballot... Cheney, Bush Sr, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz had been decades long been building up to their coup of the US.
- EGreg 13y agoBut if they hadn't been elected, how would they have succeeded if Al Gore's admin was running the show? I'm saying that the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world. Chaos theory :-P
- jusben1369 13y agoI wonder if he's still unemployed.
- jobu 13y agoA quick google search indicates that Greg Christie came up with the "Slide to Unlock" idea: http://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/09/greg-christie-jony-ive-fallout/ http://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/09/greg-christie-jony-ive-f... Hopefully the person that invented the picker wheel control will be next. What a horrible interface.
- owenversteeg 13y agoWhy not link to the source article? http://9to5mac.com/2014/04/09/jony-ive-shakes-up-apples-software-design-group-iphone-interface-creator-greg-christie-departing/ http://9to5mac.com/2014/04/09/jony-ive-shakes-up-apples-soft...
- dang 13y agoThanks. I changed it.
- leothekim 13y agoThe Financial Times got confirmation of this from Apple: http://blogs.ft.com/tech-blog/2014/04/apple-confirms-departure-of-prominent-designer-greg-christie/ http://blogs.ft.com/tech-blog/2014/04/apple-confirms-departu... (registration required) Apple's statement: "Greg has been planning to retire later this year after nearly 20 years at Apple. He has made vital contributions to Apple products across the board, and built a world-class Human Interface team which has worked closely with Jony for many years." Clearly downplaying a clash.
- gress 13y agoHow is it clear that it's a clash? It's just as likely that the reporting of a clash is drama added by the media. (Edit: see: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2014/04/09/christie-ive-wsj http://daringfireball.net/linked/2014/04/09/christie-ive-wsj )
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- smackfu 13y agoFunny, he was just on the stand in their patent trial last week.
- EGreg 13y agoJobs and Ive run Apple like a cult of personality. And it seems to have resulted in awesome products. Let's see if that can continue to happen. Because in the last 2 years, Apple's design took a nosedive. I hate to say it but Google's interfaces are now way more pleasant than Apple's. And there is one reason for it: FLAT INTERFACES If it comes to the MacOS, I will probably abandon ship. I liked my iPhone and its familiar look and feel. Jobs got it, Ive didn't. It was all thrown out the window with the word "skeumorphism". Let me be clear: iOS 7 was a leap forward DESPITE the interface, not because of it. It was all the other things, like the drawer on the bottom (whoopee) that made up for the horrible clown-like icons and complete lack of textures. My videos with white backgrounds now are indistinguishable from the controls. At least they fixed the neon-green color of the bar on top when you have a phonecall. The white text was almost impossible to read on it. How did it ever pass design QA at Apple? Probably while Jony Ive was desigining his much-touted icon grid. Apple, your design was so good -- why'd you have to go copy Google and Microsoft after decades of leading design-wise? Why'd you have to break your browser only to fix it in 7.1? Argh.
- ddebernardy 13y ago> Jobs and Ive run Apple like a cult of personality Hello? Earth speaking to whoever is out there. I realize information takes time to reach the end of our solar system and beyond, but Steve Jobs died long ago. He also ceded control to Tim Cook months before doing so.
- EGreg 13y agoOK I omitted a word assuming most people would know what I meant. Steve Jobs HAS run Apple like a cult of personality. Steve Jobs appointed Ive head of everything hardware-design-related and made him untouchable on purpose. He groomed him to lead design at Apple, which is the major department. Steve Jobs would have vehemently disagreed with Ive about skeumorphism and probably wouldn't let him create iOS 7 this way, or if it happened, would chew him out the way he did Forstall, even though he liked him. That said, the reason Ive is now telling everyone it's his way or the highway is a direct extension of how Steve Jobs ran the company. Get it?
- candybar 13y agoThe problem I'm seeing with this whole unification of design across a whole system including hardware and software is that designing a proper UI for software is orders of magnitude more complex than designing UI for hardware. Not only is software far more complex than typical end-user hardware from a functionality standpoint, it's far more malleable, indefinitely extensible and has to work with third-party components over which it has little control. Also, because it takes far longer to learn how to use software, simply being good isn't enough - it has to work within the constraints of people's expectations, far more than a piece of hardware has to. Now, there's certainly commonality between the two but if you were to exaggerate the difference, hardware UI design is like writing a sonnet. The medium is constraining but the compromises you have to make with other people are minimal - if you write a great sonnet, the chance is that people will like it. Software UI design is more like writing a constitution - it's about compromises. You have to weigh the needs of present users against those of future users, usability of old applications against new applications, properly balance the opinions and ideas of a whole bunch of people involved in design and implementation of various features, not to mention third-party developers. No matter what you do, there will be a huge number of inconsistencies, a lot of people will hate it and many others will worship and faithfully copy your mistakes, in a way that makes correcting your mistakes difficult. Edit: Btw, when I say hardware UI, I actually mean the hardware as seen and directly manipulated by the user without software as the intermediary. If by hardware, we mean software interface to the hardware, the above points also apply to hardware, though hardware is still considerably simpler and the work is done almost entirely at the component level that has nothing to do with Jony Ive. At the whole system level, which is where Jony Ive comes in, hardware UI design is inherently simple. Simple doesn't mean easy - it just means you're judged by different standards.
- kingnight 13y agoI'd argue all your points regarding software are true for hardware but with the added difficulty of needing to get it right the first time.
- kingnight 13y agoEdit: Re your edit, I still think that designing the actual hardware that the user interacts with directly is equally difficult to design as the software at any level. The fact that the iPhone has 4 buttons and a switch is a huge design decision. The size, shape, texture, reflectiveness, responsiveness, and tactile feedback are parts of the design that need to be considered and are not malleable once released.
- w1ntermute 13y agoGoogle should hire this dude, just to give Sir Jony the middle finger.
- sscalia 13y agoComplete conjecture.
- blazespin 13y agoIve will be the next CEO of Apple. Anyone who doesn't bow at the alter of Ive like they bow at the altar of Steve, will be gone.