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My Heart Bleeds for OpenSSL
- ForHackernews 13y agoYour site (blogspot's site?) breaks my back button something fierce.
- dredmorbius 13y agoThat's Blogspot / Blogger. Hell, I don't even see any content with JS disabled. Enabling it, as you note, is worse. From past experience, it's got to do with the dynamic themes Blogger offers. I can't be arsed to even investigate.
- ivanca 13y agoIn Google (search) you can write `cache:` plus the URL and it shows you a static version (regardless if JS is disabled).
- rquirk 13y agoWell until Google breaks this feature you can see most blogger sites without Javascript using the RSS feed (in Firefox at least): http://coderinaworldofcode.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss&path=/2014/04/my-heart-bleeds-for-openssl.html http://coderinaworldofcode.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?... In other browsers it might not render the RSS XML feed as a page, Chrome just shows the raw XML. I use this bookmarklet for the process: javascript:window.location=window.location.protocol+"//"+window.location.host+"/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss&path="+window.location.pathname;
- dredmorbius 13y agoThanks, though I avoid Google where possible these days.
- chomp 13y agoThis whole thing was totally mismanaged. Cloudflare had 1 week's notice from these codenomicon guys, and they patched it and stayed silent (NDA?). Then the codenomicon came up with a fancy name, bought a domain that I'm guessing they paid a fair sum for (for publicity?) and publicized it without notifying anyone (Amazon? Yahoo?, any Linux distro?) I mean, openssl.org's own website was vulnerable until not too long ago. I don't appreciate having to build custom RPMs in the middle of the night because my distribution had no prior warning. I really don't appreciate this spectacle to advertise a security services firm.
- tptacek 13y agoEverybody wants prior warning, but very early in the process you hit a point where secret notices create more harm than help. The worst situation you can be in is where everyone knows something is going on, but only a small group of people know what it is. At that point, the incentives strongly favor the attackers, who will work quickly to join the in-crowd and exploit the window of time where they know how to exploit the flaw, and site operators don't know enough about it to take it seriously. It's especially hard to stage-manage these updates with open source software. Look at the patch; to someone who takes exploit code seriously, the vulnerability is instantly obvious. How was anyone supposed to give you a heads up without tipping off attackers?
- parennoob 13y ago> At that point, the incentives strongly favor the attackers, who will work quickly to join the in-crowd and exploit the window of time where they know how to exploit the flaw, and site operators don't know enough about it to take it seriously. Has this sort of behaviour been observed for other vulnerabilities in the wild that can be cited? I would think that the patch is small enough that a co-ordinated deployment to all the distros could have been managed so that they had packages ready before attackers could exploit the vulnerability. Not sure that the correct solution is to announce it with a corporate blog post and a vanity web site instead.
- frandroid 13y ago
- tptacek 13y agoDepending on how deep we go, we could end up throwing everything away, the CA infrastructure, the cipher suite flexibility, the vast quantities of knowledge that surround the OpenSSL ecosystem and allow thousands of developers to work in a more secure manner than would otherwise be possible. I want to cover the cipher suite flexibility quickly, just to point out how much of a fantastic idea it is. The server and client tell each other what their most-prefered ciphers are, then they agree on the strongest one that they both support. This has massive benefits, for instance, when BEAST et. al. came along and effectively broke block cipher based OpenSSL for a while, we could jump to RC4 for a little while. When that was broke, we all hauled ass back to AES. This gives incredibly flexibility when dealing with many attacks, by simply being able to circumvent the affected parts. This is frustrating. All three of the major ciphersuite problems in SSL/TLS (BEAST, RC4, Lucky13) were well-known in the literature prior to their discovery. The BEAST vulnerability --- chaining IVs across messages instead of making them explicit and thus unpredictable --- was described years before BEAST was published, and was presaged by Phil Rogaway in discussions about IPSEC. It is possible that RC4 was known to be vulnerable all the way from the moment it was leaked to Usenet. Certainly, the statistical biases were well-known. Not just apocryphally, but in the academic literature. Lucky13 was a product of MAC-then-encrypt constructions, and an instance of a specific attack Vaudenay described in the early 2000s. TLS has "ciphersuite flexibility" that has enabled the protocol to hop from one vulnerability to another. Meanwhile, fundamental fixes (either explicit encrypt-then-MAC, or AEAD modes like GCM, or secure native stream ciphers) have demanded fundamental protocol changes, not just new entries in a list of ciphersuites.
- 0x0 13y agoI never realized RC4 was leaked onto Usenet and a mailing list anonymously: http://web.archive.org/web/20080404222417/http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00304.html http://web.archive.org/web/20080404222417/http://cypherpunks... It's interesting to read the very first reactions and evaluations: http://web.archive.org/web/20070423042054/http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00386.html http://web.archive.org/web/20070423042054/http://cypherpunks...
- rdl 13y ago
- Aqueous 13y ago"The only way to get that level of assurance would be to build an automated verification suite, or similar." Wait.....what? OpenSSL doesn't have an automated verification suite? What the? Well there you go. That's step #1. I completely disagree with others' calls for a rewrite, and I really don't like their attacks on OpenSSL developers (not that I know them or even know who they are.) How many of you have written software that has been tested as thoroughly in the real world as OpenSSL? Some, but not very many, I presume. OpenSSL has an installed base of billions and billions of machines, and it is mostly successful, and any software that sees that much use (and the corresponding scrutiny) is going to have vulnerabilities revealed. We should absolutely not, not, not rewrite the software and open ourselves up to whole new bugs, or worse, bugs that were in OpenSSL and patched years ago. It would be fine to start a new piece of software, with the hope of competing for SSL, but a widespread campaign to replace OpenSSL would be foolish. The only possible caveat to this would be if it was developed more like clean room software a la NASA's probe/shuttle software, with every change agreed upon by a large committee of people, and no change made without weeks of planning. If it was replaced by a process so rigorous that it would not admit any bugs the new software might have a chance of competing with OpenSSL. And even then, a committee can't think of everything. Everyone is starting from the reference point of perfect security and yet perfect security is impossible. Literally the best you can do is to have software that has been subjected to attacks over and over and over again and though it may have been flawed it has also been patched.
- dkarapetyan 13y agoYou don't need a committee to build rock solid software. There are all sorts of formal verification and modeling tools for specifying machine checkable specifications. The overhead in many cases is high so you're not gonna use it when writing a web 2.0 application but not when you're writing software that is a fundamental part of internet infrastructure then the bar needs to be higher. 1000 eyes making all bugs shallow is not the right approach in such cases.
- Aqueous 13y agoWell, the 1000 eyes approach has worked with other open source, mission critical software, like Linux, which also doesn't have an official testing suite. If you have enough people invested in making sure something works, there's a strong incentive to uncover bugs now matter how obscure. Security's always going to be an arms race in software.
- rdl 13y agoIf we could throw away CAs, cipher suite flexibility, ASN.1, general baroqueness, C, and the horrible cross-layer pain of SSL, I'd be fine with the hard incompatibility with legacy SSL.
- mixedbit 13y agoWhat language other than C would allow code to be used from all mainstream languages/frameworks? This is a critical requirement for a lib like openssl, having N such libs for N languages would be a nightmare.
- TillE 13y agoWrite it in safe, modern C++, with an extern C API. I'm sure that leaves out a few rare cases on embedded platforms where they only have a C compiler, but they could continue using existing libraries.
- mixedbit 13y agoI can't see why C++ would be any safer than C. For example Heartbleed like bugs in C++ are still very much possible.
- amalcon 13y agoIt's possible to define a subset of C++ that can be statically verified to not have this sort of problem. This can also be done with C, but it's more difficult. There are actually people who write in overrun-proof subsets of C++.
- christopherl 13y agoWow, I wish posts like yours weren't so rare. There is way too much undeserved hate heaped on C++ due to (imo) C programmers that pretend to code C++.
- michh 13y ago
- ademarre 13y agoThe author seems to discuss OpenSSL as if it were the protocol itself, not an implementation of it. OpenSSL != SSL != TLS
- jeffdavis 13y agoI generally agree that rewrites are a bad idea. However: 1. Competition is good. Business, open source... doesn't matter; some competition almost always leads to improvements. 2. Sometimes a rewrite can be justified when there's a real difference of design behind it. For instance, using a different language with greater safety (type safety and/or memory safety) might be the only way to get this to the level of security we expect.
- tetha 13y agoAlso if you're able to e.g. inject a deterministic random number generator into both libraries, you should be able to cross-check the crypto primitives. Just create a server that spends all day and night throwing random inputs at the bleeding edge and released versions of all the libraries and see if they output the same values (i.e, either they are all equally broken or they all work).
- lucian1900 13y agoAll PRNGs have a seed, so you can always make them deterministic if you want.
- tetha 13y agoHm. I'll start looking into this if this could be turned into a general crypto/SSL/TSL-cross verification service. I'd need to wrap the various components of libraries into sandboxed REST-like webservices to enable more languages to take part and then I'd need some system to just generate semi-structured junk to throw at those implementations.
- dfc 13y agoI would love to know the price tags, ballpark informed guesstimates, for the following: * Audit of openssl * Audit of openssl + remediation work * Brand new implementation of ssl library (100% feature parity not required)
- _pmf_ 13y ago> Brand new implementation of ssl library Which will take some years to reach the security level of the current OpenSSL implementation (if at all).
- dfc 13y agoGetting an idea of the effort/resources that have gone into openssl is a large part of why I asked the question.
- lern_too_spel 13y agoWhat is all this rewrite talk about? Just use NSS. Done.
- dfc 13y agoNot done. Would it surprise you to learn that "all this rewrite talk"--which was merely one question--was simple curiosity? I did not realize that asking a question would be such a problem for you. I have seen different suggestions of crowdfunding an audit/rewrite and I have have no concept of the price tag for such complex projects.
- lern_too_spel 13y agoBy "all this rewrite talk," I meant the article, your comment, and several other comments in this thread together. What about my comment indicated that your question was a problem for me? "Done," answered your question. $0.
- dfc 13y ago
- pohl 13y agorewriting is almost always a mistake I'd make an exception for rewriting in a language that prioritizes safety towards the top... http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/22gppc/when_life_hands_you_lemons_is_this_rusts_time_to/ http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/22gppc/when_life_hands...
- JetSpiegel 13y agoI thought Rust was old hat? Haven't we all moved on to Node.js? Or it was Grep ou Gulp or something. I find it hard to keep up.
- lipoicacid 13y agoIsn't Rust a newer language with a ton of recent activity? Isn't it in a different space than Node.js? I'm not following your comment.
- jmspring 13y agoThis particular breach is very bad. That said, for a piece of software as widely used as this, what is the actual count of vulnerabilities found? I've spent quite a bit of time in the openssl code base for various projects over the years. I find it generally readable, but then I've seen some pretty odd ball C code over the years.
- bbwharris 13y agoLook at it this way. If it was closed source, the fix would take longer, and the realization may have never come. Honestly, seems like we are forgetting our roots on this. Dump it? Yeah and throw out years of stability and bug fixes. No thanks!
- sp332 13y agoBeing widely used is a problem. Monoculture leads to exactly this kind of mass vulnerability.
- JetSpiegel 13y ago"But crypto is hard! Don't roll your own", say everyone, ever.
- jussij 13y agoBy coincidence, I remembered someone pointing this out to the Go developers no too long ago, after he found out they did in fact roll their own: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/golang-nuts/openssl/golang-nuts/0za-R3wVaeQ/dOWHSpZK7-cJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/golang-nuts/opens... In light of the current issue I looks like the D guys did the right thing.
- bbwharris 13y agoStandards are important. For all practical purposes OpenSSL has become a standard. TCP can be exploited, it doesn't mean we ditch TCP for another differently exploitable solution. I see your point but I don't think of OpenSSL as monoculture the same way that Windows or OSX are.
- sp332 13y agoOpenSSL isn't a standard any more than winsock. And fortunately, OpenSSL isn't the only library that implements SSL.
- higherpurpose 13y agoActually, this post reinforced my belief that we should dump SSL and replace it with something better and safer. It's just not worth the trouble at this point. The flexibility will arrive over the coming years, if there's an alternative with a lot more enthusiasm and resources put into it.
- chc 13y agoI do not want my customers' security to be based on "enthusiasm," and I can't see any way you could get something with more resources put into it than SSL in a near-future time frame.
- thefreeman 13y agoSomeone with more knowledge please correct me if this is inaccurate, but from what I have been able to understand this basically exposed 16kb of random memory each heartbeat? So the fear would be that a persistent attacker I guess could continuously run this and scan the output trying to match things like security certificates? While I am sure this could be used on high value targets with enough resources, as a small web service outside of the tech industry I feel pretty confident that no one would invest those kind of resources to steal our SSL cert. Is that misguided?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- sliverstorm 13y agoMaybe misguided, maybe not, but it's not too hard to get a new cert from your CA, especially if they revoke+reissue for free.
- sp332 13y agoYes. It doesn't take a lot of resources. It's already been noted on Twitter that someone - possibly quite a lot of people - were using HTTPS Everywhere lists to find interesting targets. Mass hacking and drive-bys are trivial. And remember, it's not just certificates! It's anything that is in your sever processes memory (the process that implemented SSL), so it could be passwords or other credentials.
- na85 13y agoI don't think "progenerator" is a word. Did the author mean "progenitor"?
- jrochkind1 13y agoIs OP intermingling discussion of OpenSSL (a particular codebaes implementation) from SSL/TLS the protocol(s), in a confusing way? Or am I confused?
- lern_too_spel 13y agoYou're not confused. OP is confused.
- narrowrail 13y agoNPR is covering this story and confusing the library and protocol as well. I suppose most people that need to understand this will not be getting their info from these people.
- newman314 13y agoJust think, Zuck could have paid $18bil for WhatsApp and used the $1bil leftover as OpenSSL or like bounty. Better use of money and still of use to FB.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- peterwwillis 13y agoI wonder if this author is aware that OpenSSL was once born from a different project, called SSLeay, started way back in 1995. Abbreviated history lesson: -- People today get pissed off because RSA got paid by the NSA to make crypto weaker, but try living in a time when RSA literally controlled the entire trade of tools used to run the web securely, and could just prevent anyone in the US from using SSL if they didn't pay for it. It's funny that actually all the people who originally worked on getting SSL created or its implementation into free software eventually worked for RSA. Ironically, back in the day NSA invested millions in a campaign to destroy RSA by offering its own competing cryptosystem as the new defacto standard. SSL was basically created by Netscape through the work of Taher Elgamal, whose name you might recognize. In the 80s he created a variety of cryptosystems, many of which we still use today in a variety of applications. SSL was created with RSA's cryptosystems and patented algorithms to provide the most security in the fastest way possible for web users. Since all of RSA's algorithms were patented, nobody could implement them (for commercial purposes) without licensing it from RSA. Strong crypto (anything over 40 bits) was also still considered 'munitions' and not allowed to be exported out of the country. Back then there wasn't a great big free unified toolkit of crypto libraries for anyone to use. The people who were writing crypto software either worked for a university, or a corporation, or a government, and thus all had the tendency to keep their source code to themselves, and code and libraries were licensed instead of given out freely. But a mini revolution had started from the ashes of the homebrew/shareware communities. People started to create free software and give it away at no charge, there were people interested in making web servers and the like, and they could all share one standard library (for things like crypto) so they didn't all have to implement one themselves for every project. SSLeay was created in order to have a free implementation of SSL and its cryptographic algorithms that wouldn't be subject to US export controls. This was reportedly a "clean room" implementation derived only from documentation, written from scratch by Eric Young in Australia in 1995. It was then used by Tim Hudson in America (amongst others) to add SSL support to basically every free application that could use it, like telnet, ftp, ncsa mosaic & httpd, apache, w3c httpd, lynx, mSQL, etc. Both these men later went on to create commerial versions of this library and leave the work on SSLeay behind, and from that was born the OpenSSL project to continue where they left off. At the time it was possible to create and run free software that provided SSL access. Actually, companies like Verisign - the only CA allowed by some browsers, for a while - had to make policy changes to start allowing certs to be generated for Apache-enabled SSL sites. But it was not legal to make free SSL-enabled software in the US because the right algorithms had not been licensed by RSA to use in the states. It also wasn't legal to export any strong crypto from the country. You could only use things like Apache with SSL if you purchased a licensed add-on for use in the US, or applied a mod_ssl patch for use outside of the US. Browsers were in a much worse boat [because they all depended on RSA if they wanted strong encryption] and thus were largely commercial ventures. When Netscape released its source code for the first time under the Mozilla label, all its strong crypto was removed to comply with US laws. A new project (Cryptozilla) had to be created to link SSLeay to the sources. It was then that the rest of the world could finally download a robust, modern, open-source browser with strong crypto. All of this changed in 2000 when the RSA patents fell into the public domain and the US relaxed its export controls on crypto software. Right after that, Mozilla bundled its own RSA implementation in its NSS crypto library, and the rest (for Mozilla) had nothing to do with SSLeay or OpenSSL. But SSLeay (now OpenSSL) continued to be used by software all over the world. -- There were a lot of different implementations of SSL/TLS with varying degrees of compatibility bugs. Most of the time a web server was developed in tandem with a web browser (or other similar client/server tools), and a library was created to implement the protocols they needed. This, of course, led to various problems between different implementations, even though if it was web code it was all using the same RSA toolkit for the relevant ciphers. Even since those days in the mid-1990s, it's been obvious that a single library to handle all the weird implementations is both difficult to implement and very useful to developers. It's never been easy or bug-free. But even at the time, the library was written and re-written to get around things like export controls (the BSAFE SSL-C library was a rewritten version of SSLeay, by its original authors, so their new company could sell it as a non-US-based implementation of a US-patented algorithm). Personally, I don't think it's offensive to the spirit of the original authors (or current developers) to suggest a fork or a rewrite. The main goals of OpenSSL are to have a free software implementation of SSL and TLS, and secondarily to provide a full-strength general-purpose cryptography library. It's not some abominable, indecipherable, impossible task to re-accomplish this. Hell, it was originally done by one ozzie by himself with just docs for reference. I think maybe the entire open source community can handle organizing a do-over. -- (Side note: does anyone else realize that the HTML <keygen> tag has been around since Netscape Navigator 3, and still nobody uses it?)
- blueskin_ 13y agoAnother 'use namecoin's model' suggestion? Please, please, no. I don't want to place authority for issuing certs solely in the hands of people with mining hardware or botnets, or lots of money to buy form the aforementioned.
- lnanek2 13y ago> My Heart Bleeds for OpenSSL Looking at their web site, they have a link right at the top to buy a support contract and another to contract a team member. This level of publicity probably equals big consulting dollars for them.