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EU court rejects requirement to keep data of telecom users
- eis 13y agoGreat news, though I guess politicians will find loop holes in this decision that will let them do it anways, albeit slightly differently. I also wonder if this could have implications on drag net data collections by intelligence agencies.
- xmpir 13y agoBy now the ISPs/Telcos had to save the data. When the directive came into action the ISPs/Telcos protested as they had additional costs nobody covered. So loop holes will not help if the data is not stored in the first place.
- Maakuth 13y agoUnless there's some sort of "full feed copy" wiretap forwarding everything to a spy agency. Isn't this the way it's done in case of NSA and GCHQ, not by stealing archived traffic data off telecom servers?
- xmpir 13y agoAre there any leaks about European (except UK-GCHQ) governments spying on their citizens? By now they did not have to because it was done by the ISPs anyway.
- agapos 13y agoNot all of these about 'self-spying', but it is sure as hell they got some tips on their own people from the US. http://www.globalresearch.ca/swedish-intelligence-service-spying-on-russia-for-us-national-security-agency/5362967 http://www.globalresearch.ca/swedish-intelligence-service-sp... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-officials-internet-users-real-time-law http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-official... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/30/spain-colluded-nsa-spying-citizens-spanish-el-mundo-us http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/30/spain-colluded-... http://cphpost.dk/news/snowden-leak-confirms-denmark-spying-deal-with-us.8185.html http://cphpost.dk/news/snowden-leak-confirms-denmark-spying-... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-agencies-used-nsa-spying-program-a-912173.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intellige... http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_11_20/Norwegian-surveillance-scandal-hardly-surprising-expert-4554/ http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_11_20/Norwegian-surveillance-s... http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/impact-of-the-leaks/334/sweden-a-close-partner-in-nsa-surveillance/22686/ http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/impact-of-the-leaks/334/swede...
- frik 13y agoas of yesterday, add Austria to the list: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7552356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7552356
- tripzilch 13y agoIf the ISPs already complained about extra costs, I wonder if most EU national secret agencies could pull it off on their own. Even if they had direct access, the infrastructure for the storage and querying of all (header) data of all the ISPs. They don't all have billion dollar budgets like the NSA+GHCQ (which is the main reason I think it's fair to be infuriated with people that are okay with the global privacy breaches as long as it's not US citizens because "the secret agency in my country is doing just the same"--except they're not, they'd love to[0], but they don't have the resources to pull it off on the frankly insane and megalomaniac scale as NSA+GHCQ do). That's the benefit of decentralizing, I guess. [0] for the Dutch-reading HNers, in case you thought our AIVD are really basically just nice guys, check Louis Seveke's story http://www.vn.nl/Standaard-Media-Pagina/Louis-Seveke-kwelgeest-van-de-geheime-dienst.htm http://www.vn.nl/Standaard-Media-Pagina/Louis-Seveke-kwelgee... (and no Seveke was absolutely no saint either, but they went too far and back in those days you had to physically tail someone, so at least it didn't scale very well)
- rossng 13y agoMost likely the individual countries will keep doing it - even if EU may no longer require them to.
- kitd 13y agoYes, exactly. Sadly, it has come to the point where I can't even imagine the UK government willingly give up this option.
- JackpotDen 13y agoThis is a worry. At least some decent decisions are being made. Does this stop forcing the ISP/telecoms from monitoring, or can they still monitor if they want?
- eis 13y agoCan they do this though? It would be against EU law after all.
- malka 13y agoSome countries (such as France) shit on EU laws and prefer to pay fines with the citizen taxes. Yay.
- digitalengineer 13y agoSame here in Holland. We have an extra tax (called BPM) on all new cars. It is so high (25K on a BMW X5) we are fined by the EU every year. But it is so profitable our government pays the fine smiling.
- koyote 13y agoProbably paying the fine using the BPM; thus going in a full circle.
- SEMW 13y agoNah. The CFREU (Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU) is binding on EU bodies, and national bodies only when they are implementing EU law. It doesn't directly bind other things national bodies do. That's the job of the ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights), which is not part of the EU. The CJEU ruling relies on proportionality and the competence of the EU to legislate what it did. We're not about to get a ruling from the ECtHR that keeping telecoms data for two years violates the ECHR. tldr: (!mandatory) =/=> (illegal)
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- eik3_de 13y agoEU Court of Justice press release: english http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014-04/cp140054en.pdf http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014... german http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014-04/cp140054de.pdf http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014... Full verdict text: english https://netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/c_293_c_594-1.pdf https://netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/c_293_c_594-1.pdf german https://netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/C_0293_2012-DE-ARR.pdf https://netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/C_0293_2012-DE-ARR.pdf (Edit: direct link instead of scribd, thx eis. Added full verdict text.)
- ctolsen 13y agoThe Advocate General's opinion which is the basis for the ruling: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=145562&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=250039 http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&doc...
- eis 13y agoPrimary source: http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014-04/cp140054en.pdf http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014...
- sentenza 13y agoThis decision has immediate consequences for us here in Germany. As our own constitutional court ruled that the law implementing the directive was invalid, we did not have a data retention law for some time now, since lawmakers wanted to wait out this decision. So data retention is dead here in Germany and will fall in many other European countries. It is still possible that the court will allow for a severely restricted version of data retention and of course the police can access ISP billing logs if they have a court order, but blind mass-surveillance is a thing of the past. Yay!
- dan_bk 13y ago> blind mass-surveillance is a thing of the past. Don't forget the fact that the NSA is everywhere, can intercept and store everything and is above the law (or at least: above the law as it should be (or be interpreted)). Germany still allows the presence of several huge NSA surveillance sites. Having them inside the country certainly allows for easy tapping of German infrastructure.
- stfu 13y agoExperience tells me that it would be foolish to assume a court decision can tame the data hungry beast that we call government.
- skrause 13y agoAt least in Germany it wasn't the government collecting the data, they simply forced the ISPs to do so. And when the court ruled the law invalid the ISPs were more than happy to stop the data retention because it cost them a lot of money.
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- haakon 13y agoIn Norway, politicians have promised that they want to go ahead with data retention regardless of the legality of the EU directive. It has been postponed multiple times due to cost and technical issues, but we'll probably get it eventually :-(
- danbruc 13y agoThen just join the EU and the problem is solved.
- widdershins 13y agoThis ruling just means that the law requiring ISPs to retain data is invalid. It doesn't ban national governments from passing their own laws to the same effect.
- danbruc 13y agoThere are probably a lot of technical details involved but I don't think you can make such national laws or in case you can you probably can challenge them and get them retracted. The decision is more or less based on universal human rights and they should apply to EU and national law in the same way.
- ctolsen 13y agoThe Data Retention Directive has already been struck down locally in every state where it has reached the highest courts, so especially after this, a similar law will probably not survive. It might actually be better if a high court deems the national law to be just fine, since you might get a verdict in the European Court of Human Rights.
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- higherpurpose 13y agoThat's probably pretty unconstitutional in most countries, though. And if the EU court has a problem with ISPs keeping this data for privacy/human rights reasons, I would imagine it would be even more aggressive against governments doing that.
- frik 13y agoRelated news: NSA allegedly listening to everything in Austria As part of "Mystic" apparently the NSA monitored not only all communications in Iraq, but also in Austria. The basis for this was a secret treaty, by which the government knew about it, writes an Austrian magazine. [...] http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fmeldung%2FNSA-hoert-angeblich-auch-Oesterreich-komplett-ab-2165101.html&edit-text=&act=url http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pre... [heise.de, news article from yesterday evening] Austria has implemented the data retention law and officially stores "connection"-data for 6 months, apparently NSA stores "everything" and is working together with the Austrian telekom companies and government.
- Zigurd 13y agoI predict that it will eventually come out that other European nations have similar secret treaties, and that their sovereignty is circumscribed by such treaties. This is why you hear complaints, but see no action. It will be interesting to see if any popular movements against such agreements arise.
- tempodox 13y agoSo, contrary to well-founded despair in the U.S. of A. & the U.K., there are still civilized regions on this planet. This gives me hope.
- NicoJuicy 13y agoActually, the U.K. is part of the EU, so this should affect them...
- Tyrannosaurs 13y agoYes, but if we don't already we'll soon have our own national law requiring this data be collected. This government aren't at all liberal in this regard and would never have been wild about trusting the EU to do this (or anything else) in the first place.
- NicoJuicy 13y agoYes, you have your own censorship law, but protesters now have a legal standing to challenge the law at national level. Because EU law > United kingdom law.
- Tyrannosaurs 13y agoI understand that but that challenge will take years and will potentially still result in nothing happening. Look at prisoner voting rights in the UK. The UK passed a law in 1983 saying prisoners couldn't vote. In 2001 someone mounted a legal challenge to it which was dismissed and arrived in Strasbourg later that year. That court ruled in 2004 saying a blanket ban on prisoner voting was illegal, the UK appealed and lost in 2005. The government messed around before bringing a bill before parliament in 2009 to allow some voting rights - this bill was defeated. And since then.... Nothing. 2014, 13 years after the original case was bought, 5 years after is was won and prisoners have no right to vote and the government have repeatedly stated they aren't going to get the right to vote. And the UK isn't the only country where this happens - I can't remember which but either France (I think) or Italy are notorious for ignoring EU court rulings where it doesn't suit them. EU Courts are great where the national governments feel inclined to do what they say or don't feel too strongly about it but if they don't want to do what the court says, quite simply they don't.
- atmosx 13y agohm. This is important, extremely important. I'm very happy as an EU citizen for the direction the EU has been taking lately on technology matters. I'm not fond of the EU, Brussels or anything, but there's a string of positive decisions in technology related matters that not many people seem to understand. That's good.
- junto 13y agoMy assumption is that a UK individual, backed by an organisation such as Liberty will start the long road to the European Court of Human Rights, but first they need to take this to court in the UK (and lose to qualify).
- NicoJuicy 13y agoI'm actually curious about which effects this ruling in the United Kingdom (Brittain). Although they are subject to this regulations, considering their censorship the last years, i don't believe they are willing to coöperate on this (like they are not willing to drop the British pound in favor of the €) Just a thought.
- higherpurpose 13y agoI love EU! US, pay attention. This is how you do civil liberties. It seems EU is becoming the new beacon of democracy and civil liberties in the 21st century (if we ignore UK, which seems more interested in being another US state than an EU one, anyway, but without any rights to vote in the former).
- weavejester 13y agoThere's a vocal anti-EU minority in the UK, but it's still a minority. It just seems larger than it actually is because it's loud, and to some extent act as swing votes (the Conservatives want to avoid losing too many votes to UKIP, for fear of Labour beating them in the next election).
- Silhouette 13y agoThere's a vocal anti-EU minority in the UK, but it's still a minority. That statement is true but potentially misleading. In a poll earlier this month, as reported by the BBC[1], voting intentions if we had an in/out referendum immediately were 35% in, 32% out, 27% undecided, and 6% would not vote. A different poll from back in December, mentioned in the same article, had a result of 32% in and 45% out, so it looks like the balance of opinion on this issue varies considerably over time, too. (Both polls came from reputable sources, so I'm assuming that the sampling was done sensibly.) In short, while it's true that the "anti-EU" group are a minority, the "pro-EU" group appear to be a minority of approximately the same size. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26892237 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26892237
- rmc 13y ago> (the Conservatives want to avoid losing too many votes to UKIP, for fear of Labour beating them in the next election). If only there was some sort of voting system, where people could rank Alternatives so that the right wing voters wouldn't be split... If only...
- Zak 13y agoI love EU! US, pay attention. This is how you do civil liberties. Note that it was the EU that implemented this data retention law in the first place. The US has no such data retention law and attempts to pass one have failed. US law enforcement and intelligence agencies have done plenty of their own privacy invasion, of course, but there is substantial evidence that their counterparts in EU countries have done the same, sometimes conspiring with the US to do so.
- JoachimS 13y agoHard to say how the Swedish government will react. One ISP, Bahnhof immeadetly decided to stop collecting any data as specified by the Swedish DRD laws. And erase anything collected. Press release in Swedish: https://www.bahnhof.se/press/press-releases/2014/04/08/efter-eu-domen-bahnhof-upphor-med-all-datalagring-omedelbart https://www.bahnhof.se/press/press-releases/2014/04/08/efter...
- eurleif 13y agoAre they literally collecting nothing now, not even enough to link IP addresses with subscriber identities? I love privacy as much as everyone else, but real crimes do happen online, and I wonder about the consequences.
- tripzilch 13y agoCollecting and storing all that data indiscriminately is the wrong approach for preventing online crime. We don't chip and tag everyone 24/7 to prevent RL crime, either.
- eurleif 13y agoDo you say that because you know of a practical alternative which allows law enforcement to happen with a similar level of effectiveness?
- tripzilch 13y agoOh, sure. You can implement a curfew and shoot on sight everyone who ventures out on the streets outside government-approved schedule. Then you don't need to chip and tag them. Or did you mean online crime? Outlaw computers, refer to above technique. My point is, just because some type of enforcement has a certain level of effectiveness doesn't mean it's right to have it, nor does it mean that any alternative is required to have the same level of effectiveness, in particular given that it gets rid of something far worse.
- CharlesKCarillo 13y agoGreat news, though I guess politicians will find loop holes in this decision that will let them do it anyways, albeit slightly differently.
- acd 13y agoEU is run by a leader who is an ex Mao communist and the head banker is ex Goldman Sachs. I trust them not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Manuel_Barroso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Manuel_Barroso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Draghi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Draghi
- astrange 13y agoThat sounds like a reasonably trustworthy set of people if they're ideological opponents.
- shmerl 13y agoGreat decision. I hope in US something similar will happen. But somehow I doubt that it will in the current sick climate.
- DanBC 13y agoOne mildly interesting / infuriating pre-Snowden tidbit: the UK was having a national discussion about this kind of mass surveilance. GCHQ were asked for their response a few times. They replied saying things like "it's useful for some crime prevention; you need checks and balances" and so on. What they did 't say was "this isn't relevant to us, because the law already allows us to do it (also, we already are doing it)". With hindsight I can see how carefully they crafted all their answers. It is very frustrating to me that journalists did not read the relevant laws (which clearly list exemptions for GCHQ) and did not question the relevant oversight bodies or GCHQ for more information. I tend to agree that slurping and storing all content data or all metadata is probably the wrong approach. It does make me wonder if the technology got released in any form, even as university research, back to the public. I can understand keeping bomb design documets secret, but better database and better data mining tech is less sensitive.