9 ms·

There are only a few really good places to live for an educated worker. Japan, Australia, Western and Northern Europe, Canada, and the US. I will operationalize

There are only a few really good places to live for an educated worker. Japan, Australia, Western and Northern Europe, Canada, and the US. I will operationalize "good" as "an intelligent worker can make an exceptional living relative to their country of origin." Each of these places only take a limited amount of immigrants each year. Some are more difficult based on the national language -- learning Danish isn't more difficult than English or French, but there are fewer learning resources to do so. So, your best options for the greatest amount of opportunity is to learn English -- you have the UK, America, Canada, and Australia as potential landing spots. (This is, of course, not universal. Developing countries with French as a national language will prefer France, for example.) So, the answer is that it's a way out.

JamesArgo 13y ago
Canada will take anyone with an engineering degree.
- avmich 13y ago
  What do you mean by "take"? Canadian employers aren't very familiar with a concept of working visa in practice - they prefer you to first have a permanent residence, then they can talk about hiring you. To get permanent residence, you have to pass the process, which is many months long. Am I substantially missing something?
  - refurb 13y ago
    I think the gp is referring to Canada's point system. As long as you have enough points, then you will be admitted into Canada.
    - avmich 13y ago
      But how long is the wait? In US, if - and that's a big if - you're lucky enough to win H-1b early April, you may start working early October. Is there anything as fast with Canada? Without employer agreeing to hire you even though you don't have a working visa - i.e., you have to apply for one?
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    Yes. Skilled worker visas which don't require employer sponsorship, and are open ended.
    - avmich 13y ago
      Hmm, http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/perm/skilled-fed.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/perm/skilled-... lists processing times in months. Options with many months of wait are known, but are there anything faster? Say, 90 days?
      - Mikeb85 13y ago
        Not really. To get sponsored by an employer you need a labour market opinion and there are certain conditions (like no Canadian candidates applying for said position during a certain time period).
- turar 13y ago
  Nope. Unless anyone is someone who has 1 year experience (not just a degree) in one of just 24 allowed occupations, AND can get an application before a small cap is reached. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/complete-applications.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/complete-appl...
ollysb 13y ago
As a developer you can live anywhere that has a decent internet connection. That's a pretty large portion of the planet these days...
- scv119 13y ago
  Sorry, there is no DECENT internet connection in China
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    And yet, I still am able to work here. Barely, but still (helps that we have our own line from the office).
- nowarninglabel 13y ago
  I've traveled pretty extensively across the world for work and very few places have an internet connection that compares to even a modest broadband connection in the US. Not only that, I deal with this problem weekly from our partners in 75 countries across the world who don't have good internet connections. As well, you're discounting the world's oceans. I've worked on a ship where we provided an extremely limited internet connection that would not be suitable for rapid development work. I'd say it's a pretty small portion of the planet that has a decent internet connection, but the detail is how you define "decent".
- ollysb 13y ago
  "Large portion of the planet"... you've got North America, South America(some exceptions), Europe, a good chunk of Asia and Australasia. That's a pretty reasonable selection of places to live isn't it?
lolwutf 13y ago
With the advent of remote work upon us, I find it hard that you'd be limited to those countries. In fact, literally the ENTIRE WORLD is your oyster, assuming you can reliably, regularly find power, wifi, and a team that'll work with you on your timezone's timeframe.
- JetSpiegel 13y ago
  > In fact, literally the ENTIRE WORLD is your oyster, assuming you can reliably, regularly find power, wifi, and a team that'll work with you on your timezone's timeframe. So, this is about what the parent said.
- chc 13y ago
  The "advent of remote work" may be upon us, but a lot of places aren't really on-board yet. Go look at any job listings site — remote work is very much not the rule.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Remote work is lowering some barriers, but others aren't so easily fixed. I'm a first-gen immigrant. My family originally moved because of rampant pollution due to unrestrained industrialization, as well as geopolitical risks (having air/bomb raid drills in school isn't really that fun). Telecommuting doesn't really fix these. Suffice it to say, emigration/immigration is a Big Deal for the people who do it, and for the most part it isn't being done simply because the jobs are better. There are usually far more fundamental concerns behind the decision, a better economy is just one factor out of many.
- ebiester 13y ago
  It's not that easy to emigrate from developing world to slightly more advanced developing world in many cases. Sometimes, it's easier to go straight to the top 20.
- PhasmaFelis 13y ago
  Those are some pretty big assumptions.
thmcmahon 13y ago
Australia has an uncapped temporary migration program for skilled workers (http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/457.aspx http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/457.aspx), the situation described in this article can not happen in Australia. On a permanent level, Australia has a permanent program of around 180,000 places a year in a country with only 22 million people.
- tibbon 13y ago
  Given that, why aren't more people trying to get to Australia to work? Aside from spiders (a personal fear of mine) it seems to be a pretty awesome place.
  - benjamincburns 13y ago
    Lots of people are moving to Australia. However, one big deterrent is proximity to the rest of the world. If you want to travel home to visit family, or due to an emergency - it's going to cost a lot of money and time. Because of the distance, the logistics of physically moving there are also that much more difficult. Then there are the mainstays - cost of living in/around major cities is quite high (though in the ICT sector earning potential is quite good), there are lots of scary critters, etc.
  - untog 13y ago
    It's far away, and as a developer I don't think you can earn as much as you would in the US. Certainly to be more HN specific, the startup scene is not much to talk about.
    - wyclif 13y ago
      I was interested in migrating to Australia for a while, mostly because it's closer to where my wife's family lives. But it's just so expensive to live in Australia and the pay scale isn't nearly as good as the US or UK. On top of that, they have so many barriers to getting a skills visa it's just not worth it.
  - jedmeyers 13y ago
hrktb 13y ago
I'll add that part of the US has mild weather, and that makes it more attractive than Canada or Northern Europe to a lot of immigrants (someone from Ghana might not want to spend winters in Sweden for instance).
joering2 13y ago
> There are only a few really good places to live for an educated worker. Japan, Australia, Western and Northern Europe, Canada, and the US. You need to pull your eyes out of your ass. The countries you mention are far from being superior; perhaps "good enough", but frankly nothing too fancy. You need to visit Hong Kong or Singapore to see how highly qualified immigrants live there like kings. Japan has serious environmental problems and their government does not stand up to the transparency one would love their government to comply with [1]. They are rolling into huge economical depression too. Australia. Have you ever been there? Spend couple months you will be surprise how alienated you will feel. My friends live there for 15-20 years and they will never be a part of the community. They will always feel like outsiders; mostly recognized by their accent. Australians divide themselves among those who were born here, and all outsiders who came to steal jobs. Its the mentality. It wont change. Australia has their own environmental problems too and politics & taxation goes through the roof (viva la Queen that fixes everything through more taxes). European Union is on a brink of collapse; some countries are openly discussing living EU. Its rotten to its core by very well hidden corruption [2]; Ukraine situation that helps Russia shows their real aspirations does not help either. Canada, they are still under Queen that can suspend the parliment anytime she wants to [3]. Then we come to US. I think its a matter of "the grass that is greener on the other side". I mean, how many of those folks applying for visa know anything about US more than from movies about "land of the free home of the brave?". Politics? How many know who Nancy Pelosy or Henry Reid are? For all they know America has this good man named Obama who gave everyone free healthcare so it can't get better than that. Did they hear about Justina Pelletier, Cliven Bundy, Kelly Thomas or hundred of thousands other cases of governmental abuse? [1] http://enenews.com/japan-times-sources-reveal-fukushima-radiation-cover-up-tepco-has-hid-data-on-about-record-levels-since-july-official-something-like-this-cannot-happen http://enenews.com/japan-times-sources-reveal-fukushima-radi... [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10614864/EU-corruption-costing-economy-100bn-a-year.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10614864... [3] http://stevescomments.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/the-queen-of-england-suspends-canadian-parliment/ http://stevescomments.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/the-queen-of-...
- dang 13y ago
  You need to pull your eyes out of your ass. This is inappropriate language for Hacker News. Please don't address another user this way, regardless of how wrong you think they are.
buzaga41 13y ago
Is `educated worker` some kind of euphemism for genius/top of the game or something? I am an educated worker, and probably everyone else around here.. Seems like a bit-too-broad statement(I for one am not currently interested in immigrating not one bit) Anyway, I always thought the best would want to move to the US because it's there's top work, e.g.: there's no Tesla or SpaceX elsewhere and a top engineer would probably want to be doing this kind of work... Same with scientists that are working on ambitious research. But maybe I'm thinking about H1b as more of `top of the top, get your asses here` and it's more like `ye you're skilled enough you can try`, dunno.
EduardoBautista 13y ago
If I recall correctly, almost all the nordic countries accept English to fulfill their language requirements.
- jpatokal 13y ago
  For temporary workers, sure, But if you want citizenship, better start honing up your Finnish conjugation.
lancewiggs 13y ago
You missed South Africa, Hong Kong, Singapore, China, New Zealand, most of South America, Malaysia, Middle East and so on and on. Personally I put New Zealand on top of the list - as many other lists do along with the Nordic countries.

JamesArgo 13y ago

Canada will take anyone with an engineering degree.

avmich 13y ago
What do you mean by "take"? Canadian employers aren't very familiar with a concept of working visa in practice - they prefer you to first have a permanent residence, then they can talk about hiring you. To get permanent residence, you have to pass the process, which is many months long. Am I substantially missing something?
- refurb 13y ago
  I think the gp is referring to Canada's point system. As long as you have enough points, then you will be admitted into Canada.
  - avmich 13y ago
    But how long is the wait? In US, if - and that's a big if - you're lucky enough to win H-1b early April, you may start working early October. Is there anything as fast with Canada? Without employer agreeing to hire you even though you don't have a working visa - i.e., you have to apply for one?
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  Yes. Skilled worker visas which don't require employer sponsorship, and are open ended.
  - avmich 13y ago
    Hmm, http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/perm/skilled-fed.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/perm/skilled-... lists processing times in months. Options with many months of wait are known, but are there anything faster? Say, 90 days?
    - Mikeb85 13y ago
      Not really. To get sponsored by an employer you need a labour market opinion and there are certain conditions (like no Canadian candidates applying for said position during a certain time period).
turar 13y ago
Nope. Unless anyone is someone who has 1 year experience (not just a degree) in one of just 24 allowed occupations, AND can get an application before a small cap is reached. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/complete-applications.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/complete-appl...

ollysb 13y ago

As a developer you can live anywhere that has a decent internet connection. That's a pretty large portion of the planet these days...

scv119 13y ago
Sorry, there is no DECENT internet connection in China
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  And yet, I still am able to work here. Barely, but still (helps that we have our own line from the office).
nowarninglabel 13y ago
I've traveled pretty extensively across the world for work and very few places have an internet connection that compares to even a modest broadband connection in the US. Not only that, I deal with this problem weekly from our partners in 75 countries across the world who don't have good internet connections. As well, you're discounting the world's oceans. I've worked on a ship where we provided an extremely limited internet connection that would not be suitable for rapid development work. I'd say it's a pretty small portion of the planet that has a decent internet connection, but the detail is how you define "decent".
ollysb 13y ago
"Large portion of the planet"... you've got North America, South America(some exceptions), Europe, a good chunk of Asia and Australasia. That's a pretty reasonable selection of places to live isn't it?

lolwutf 13y ago

With the advent of remote work upon us, I find it hard that you'd be limited to those countries. In fact, literally the ENTIRE WORLD is your oyster, assuming you can reliably, regularly find power, wifi, and a team that'll work with you on your timezone's timeframe.

JetSpiegel 13y ago
> In fact, literally the ENTIRE WORLD is your oyster, assuming you can reliably, regularly find power, wifi, and a team that'll work with you on your timezone's timeframe. So, this is about what the parent said.
chc 13y ago
The "advent of remote work" may be upon us, but a lot of places aren't really on-board yet. Go look at any job listings site — remote work is very much not the rule.
potatolicious 13y ago
Remote work is lowering some barriers, but others aren't so easily fixed. I'm a first-gen immigrant. My family originally moved because of rampant pollution due to unrestrained industrialization, as well as geopolitical risks (having air/bomb raid drills in school isn't really that fun). Telecommuting doesn't really fix these. Suffice it to say, emigration/immigration is a Big Deal for the people who do it, and for the most part it isn't being done simply because the jobs are better. There are usually far more fundamental concerns behind the decision, a better economy is just one factor out of many.
ebiester 13y ago
It's not that easy to emigrate from developing world to slightly more advanced developing world in many cases. Sometimes, it's easier to go straight to the top 20.
PhasmaFelis 13y ago
Those are some pretty big assumptions.

thmcmahon 13y ago

Australia has an uncapped temporary migration program for skilled workers (http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/457.aspx http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/457.aspx), the situation described in this article can not happen in Australia. On a permanent level, Australia has a permanent program of around 180,000 places a year in a country with only 22 million people.

tibbon 13y ago
Given that, why aren't more people trying to get to Australia to work? Aside from spiders (a personal fear of mine) it seems to be a pretty awesome place.
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  Lots of people are moving to Australia. However, one big deterrent is proximity to the rest of the world. If you want to travel home to visit family, or due to an emergency - it's going to cost a lot of money and time. Because of the distance, the logistics of physically moving there are also that much more difficult. Then there are the mainstays - cost of living in/around major cities is quite high (though in the ICT sector earning potential is quite good), there are lots of scary critters, etc.
- untog 13y ago
  It's far away, and as a developer I don't think you can earn as much as you would in the US. Certainly to be more HN specific, the startup scene is not much to talk about.
  - wyclif 13y ago
    I was interested in migrating to Australia for a while, mostly because it's closer to where my wife's family lives. But it's just so expensive to live in Australia and the pay scale isn't nearly as good as the US or UK. On top of that, they have so many barriers to getting a skills visa it's just not worth it.
- jedmeyers 13y ago

hrktb 13y ago

I'll add that part of the US has mild weather, and that makes it more attractive than Canada or Northern Europe to a lot of immigrants (someone from Ghana might not want to spend winters in Sweden for instance).

joering2 13y ago

> There are only a few really good places to live for an educated worker. Japan, Australia, Western and Northern Europe, Canada, and the US. You need to pull your eyes out of your ass. The countries you mention are far from being superior; perhaps "good enough", but frankly nothing too fancy. You need to visit Hong Kong or Singapore to see how highly qualified immigrants live there like kings. Japan has serious environmental problems and their government does not stand up to the transparency one would love their government to comply with [1]. They are rolling into huge economical depression too. Australia. Have you ever been there? Spend couple months you will be surprise how alienated you will feel. My friends live there for 15-20 years and they will never be a part of the community. They will always feel like outsiders; mostly recognized by their accent. Australians divide themselves among those who were born here, and all outsiders who came to steal jobs. Its the mentality. It wont change. Australia has their own environmental problems too and politics & taxation goes through the roof (viva la Queen that fixes everything through more taxes). European Union is on a brink of collapse; some countries are openly discussing living EU. Its rotten to its core by very well hidden corruption [2]; Ukraine situation that helps Russia shows their real aspirations does not help either. Canada, they are still under Queen that can suspend the parliment anytime she wants to [3]. Then we come to US. I think its a matter of "the grass that is greener on the other side". I mean, how many of those folks applying for visa know anything about US more than from movies about "land of the free home of the brave?". Politics? How many know who Nancy Pelosy or Henry Reid are? For all they know America has this good man named Obama who gave everyone free healthcare so it can't get better than that. Did they hear about Justina Pelletier, Cliven Bundy, Kelly Thomas or hundred of thousands other cases of governmental abuse? [1] http://enenews.com/japan-times-sources-reveal-fukushima-radiation-cover-up-tepco-has-hid-data-on-about-record-levels-since-july-official-something-like-this-cannot-happen http://enenews.com/japan-times-sources-reveal-fukushima-radi... [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10614864/EU-corruption-costing-economy-100bn-a-year.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10614864... [3] http://stevescomments.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/the-queen-of-england-suspends-canadian-parliment/ http://stevescomments.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/the-queen-of-...

dang 13y ago
You need to pull your eyes out of your ass. This is inappropriate language for Hacker News. Please don't address another user this way, regardless of how wrong you think they are.

buzaga41 13y ago

Is `educated worker` some kind of euphemism for genius/top of the game or something? I am an educated worker, and probably everyone else around here.. Seems like a bit-too-broad statement(I for one am not currently interested in immigrating not one bit) Anyway, I always thought the best would want to move to the US because it's there's top work, e.g.: there's no Tesla or SpaceX elsewhere and a top engineer would probably want to be doing this kind of work... Same with scientists that are working on ambitious research. But maybe I'm thinking about H1b as more of `top of the top, get your asses here` and it's more like `ye you're skilled enough you can try`, dunno.

EduardoBautista 13y ago

If I recall correctly, almost all the nordic countries accept English to fulfill their language requirements.

jpatokal 13y ago
For temporary workers, sure, But if you want citizenship, better start honing up your Finnish conjugation.

lancewiggs 13y ago

You missed South Africa, Hong Kong, Singapore, China, New Zealand, most of South America, Malaysia, Middle East and so on and on. Personally I put New Zealand on top of the list - as many other lists do along with the Nordic countries.