7 ms·

Except they've added all that metro crap to the already cluttered start menu. Their UI team is still a long way from acknowledging the failure of integrating m

by soup10 13y ago

Except they've added all that metro crap to the already cluttered start menu. Their UI team is still a long way from acknowledging the failure of integrating metro with the desktop; and windows 8 will continue to be a mess until they do.

sonnyz 13y ago
Hopefully they'll have an option to use a smaller start menu, like in the past.
bratsche 13y ago
Metro itself wasn't the problem though, imo. It's the UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks that is the problem. Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? Go to the start screen. Click your name, sign out, click the screen so it 'opens', click the power button, click restart or shutdown from the menu.
- TheCoreh 13y ago
  Or just go to the bottom right corner of the screen, wait for the charms bar to pop up, click the Preferences icon then shutdown. Which still doesn't make a lot of sense, but is simpler than what you described.
  - jsight 13y ago
    Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. There are a lot of things about Metro that I dislike, but killing the "don't touch the power button on a computer" idiom is one that I do like.
    - stan_rogers 13y ago
      Except that that gets you precisely one option, which isn't even normally the one I'm looking for. When pressing the power button somehow gives the the restart/sleep/shutdown option, then it will make sense.
    - T-hawk 13y ago
      This has been around forever, since at least Windows 2000. The power button signals the OS through ACPI to shut down correctly. It wasn't always reliable on all hardware and BIOSes, and didn't always default to that behavior until set in Control Panel - Power Options, but soft power-off is supposed to have been working for a long time and is hardly new.
      - yuhong 13y ago
        Yea, Windows has required ACPI to boot since Vista.
    - akandiah 13y ago
      > Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. No it doesn't. Pressing the power button implements what the PC maker wants to implement. In many cases (especially on laptops) it's for the computer to go to sleep.
      - renata 13y ago
        Nope. Settings -> Power Options -> Change what the power button does.
  - bratsche 13y ago
    Who would have guessed restart/shutdown would be under the settings?
    - piyush_soni 13y ago
      I actually had to Google "How to restart Windows 8?" - How can 'restart/shut down' be a setting. That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen about Windows in all these years.
    - estel 13y ago
      I think I heard their justification once was that they thought it was a bit of an anachronism that we'd press a hardware button to turn a PC on, but would have to go through a software route in order to turn it off. Every other electrical device usually has a single on/off button, and in a world of ACPI it's entirely reasonable for that to be the same as a default "turn off" action on a PC. Initiating a manual restart or true shutdown then becomes more of a power-user thing that, yes, perhaps it does make sense as a Settings panel.
  - tracker1 13y ago
    Yeah, and it's really f*cking annoying to try to do that on a remote desktop to a Win2012 server with the same horrible UI. On a desktop you can just drag your cursor to the bottom right.. in an RDP window, it isn't so easy. Beyond that, Metro is horrible when you have more than one large monitor. The UI simple doesn't scale well in that environment. It looks like 8.1 update 1 will finally be much closer to how it should have been. It reminds me of Vista, where half the control panel UI was updated, and half wasn't, and it was just a bad mix of old/new. I don't mind a new UI. For that matter, I'm really digging Ubuntu's Unity interface, ymmv on that. I think that Windows 7 had a really nice UI, and that metro should have been an option on top of that from the beginning. Trying to make a unifying UX for interfaces from your phone to tablet to dual-monitor desktops just doesn't work that well. You really need two options, and making the UI work for those metro apps in the desktop context makes more sense.
    - yuhong 13y ago
      Yeah, and it's really fcking annoying to try to do that on a remote desktop to a Win2012 server with the same horrible UI. On a desktop you can just drag your cursor to the bottom right.. in an RDP window, it isn't so easy. And the Server 2012 R2 upgrade was not free unlike Win8.1. While at it, don't forget the lack of IE11 too.
    - steve-howard 13y ago
      Over RDP, I'd just use the Windows+C shortcut. Haven't been a huge fan of "Modern UI," but you can learn to work with it. Disclaimer: MSFT employee, opinions my own.
      - spacelizard 13y ago
        That doesn't work if you're RDPing from another Win8 machine, the local OS swallows the keybind. What you actually need to press is Alt + Home or Alt + Delete (good luck figuring that out without doing a web search). I'm actually really confused why this is, it seems to be such an important use case. I would not be surprised if they didn't even test WS2012.
  - jyrkesh 13y ago
    Or even better, right-click the bottom left corner of the screen, go to Shutdown or Sign-out. Along with a ton of other stuff that power users want most of the time.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Aldo_MX 13y ago
  The UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks wasn't the problem, forcing Metro without a Touchscreen was the problem.
- sonnyz 13y ago
  I do this all the time. Just right click the windows icon in the bottom LEFT corner. A context menu pops up with an option to shutdown, restart, log out, or sleep.
- three14 13y ago
  Or press the Windows Key together with I.
- bananas 13y ago
  Win+x, U, U Much better than ANY other version of windows ever. Then again I'm a power user.
  - greyskull 13y ago
    If you really want mouse clicks, you can right click the "start button" and get the Win+X menu.
- gnopgnip 13y ago
  Press windows key + X and click shutdown. Or press the power button
- MBCook 13y ago
  > Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? I've been out of Windows for a long time, is this something that comes up much? Even with a laptop, I'd think you mostly be suspending it by closing the lid. Can you still use the physical power button to bring up the shutdown menu?
  - rikkus 13y ago
    It's something you hardly ever do. Even if there's been some kind of installation/update that requires a reboot, it tends to be able to trigger that itself (which can cause other pain, but that's for another day). There are some people who like to shut down their machines, though. I think they haven't forgotten the days when a good reboot once a day was necessary to clear out cobwebs.
    - MBCook 13y ago
      That's what I figured. I reboot my Mac when updates require it, and every once in a while if something weird is going on I might reboot it, but by and large my computer has uptime's in the weeks.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      > Even if there's been some kind of installation/update that requires a reboot Oh so they still have those in Win8. I didn't miss that when I moved to Linux. Reboots for Updates is a broken concept.
      - MBCook 13y ago
        I wonder if they're true reboots. On OS X it's somewhat rare for an update for require a reboot. Often they don't actually reboot the machine but just log you out, perform the update, and then log you back in. While these updates feel like a reboot since you lose your desktop environment state, you can tell the difference if you're paying close enough attention.
        13y ago
- kyledilger 13y ago
  I just go to the desktop (win+d)and hit alt+f4
toxicityj 13y ago
I don't know if I really mind the metro crap being there. Some of the "at a glance" stuff will be really useful (weather, mail, social, etc.) for quick views. In some ways that stuff already is useful, but having to roll out the big start menu that incompasses my entire screen to view was a bit silly, imo.
bushido 13y ago
8.1 has the option to boot to desktop, they could enable that by default. Personally I don't see Metro as a UI failure, my productivity actually increased with metro. I rarely need to use the mouse, which is great. Also, hitting the windows key to switch screens is not a big deal, my grand parents complain about it a little, but the pains of having to explain finding stuff in the start menu to them and other older relatives has stopped happening. Additionally with the docking capability of the task bar aka "pin program to task bar" had made the start menu quite redundant since win 7.
- iaskwhy 13y ago
  With 8.1 Update 1 booting to desktop will be the default.
- lugg 13y ago
  My mother recently got a new laptop and wanted that new "windows 8.1 thingy and a touch screen" I dont think she even noticed that the start menu was gone.
- daigoba66 13y ago
  > my productivity actually increased with metro How so? What productivity enhancements exist in Win8 that do not in Win7? This is a genuine question. I upgraded to and use Win8 daily for about 14 months now because I like running the latest stable software (from any vendor). But, with the exception of no longer being able to search without going full screen, it's exactly the same. Edit There is one fairly big enhancement I completely forgot about: the "power users menu" accessible via right-click in the bottom left corner or by pressing Windows-X. Of course this has nothing to do with "metro".
  - greyskull 13y ago
    > no longer being able to search without going full screen Press WindowsKey + S to slide in a sidebar on your current monitor. It took me a short while to adjust but I use it naturally now.
    - 13y ago
yaeger 13y ago
Exactly. I don't see MS as humble here at all. They are backtracking because they are forced to backtrack as it is evident that their idea of an OS does not work. But do they backtrack in the right fashion? No. "As little as possible" seems to be the mission statement. People want the old start menue back. They voice their opinions as "Where is the start button?" To anyone with half a brain it should be clear that they didn't just mean the UI element of that button but the functionality behind it. And as much as I hate Microsoft's shortcomings as of late, I doubt that they really believed "Well, if they just want that button, give them the button but once clicked it'll still do the same shift to metro it did before. That should give people what they want" I doubt anybody could be that dense. And even this "return of the old start menue" is not what people want. As they still keep on with the Metro part of things. A simple choice during install. Is all that is needed. "Do you want touch or desktop?" Touch meaning Metro and desktop meaning, well, desktop. Without any metro tile nonsense what-so-ever. Done. All of the issues with Win8 and I mean all of them would be gone. But that doesn't fit with Microsoft's vision of having tiles everywhere. So, by the way they are "fixing" win8 and refusing to acknowledge that metro needs to die, at least on the desktop, I really doubt that "Win9" would be any better. We finally get off the "every other version of windows is usable" because now, every version of windows will be worse than its predecessor.

by soup10 13y ago

sonnyz 13y ago

Hopefully they'll have an option to use a smaller start menu, like in the past.

bratsche 13y ago

Metro itself wasn't the problem though, imo. It's the UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks that is the problem. Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? Go to the start screen. Click your name, sign out, click the screen so it 'opens', click the power button, click restart or shutdown from the menu.

TheCoreh 13y ago
Or just go to the bottom right corner of the screen, wait for the charms bar to pop up, click the Preferences icon then shutdown. Which still doesn't make a lot of sense, but is simpler than what you described.
- jsight 13y ago
  Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. There are a lot of things about Metro that I dislike, but killing the "don't touch the power button on a computer" idiom is one that I do like.
  - stan_rogers 13y ago
    Except that that gets you precisely one option, which isn't even normally the one I'm looking for. When pressing the power button somehow gives the the restart/sleep/shutdown option, then it will make sense.
  - T-hawk 13y ago
    This has been around forever, since at least Windows 2000. The power button signals the OS through ACPI to shut down correctly. It wasn't always reliable on all hardware and BIOSes, and didn't always default to that behavior until set in Control Panel - Power Options, but soft power-off is supposed to have been working for a long time and is hardly new.
    - yuhong 13y ago
      Yea, Windows has required ACPI to boot since Vista.
  - akandiah 13y ago
    > Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. No it doesn't. Pressing the power button implements what the PC maker wants to implement. In many cases (especially on laptops) it's for the computer to go to sleep.
    - renata 13y ago
      Nope. Settings -> Power Options -> Change what the power button does.
- bratsche 13y ago
  Who would have guessed restart/shutdown would be under the settings?
  - piyush_soni 13y ago
    I actually had to Google "How to restart Windows 8?" - How can 'restart/shut down' be a setting. That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen about Windows in all these years.
  - estel 13y ago
    I think I heard their justification once was that they thought it was a bit of an anachronism that we'd press a hardware button to turn a PC on, but would have to go through a software route in order to turn it off. Every other electrical device usually has a single on/off button, and in a world of ACPI it's entirely reasonable for that to be the same as a default "turn off" action on a PC. Initiating a manual restart or true shutdown then becomes more of a power-user thing that, yes, perhaps it does make sense as a Settings panel.
- tracker1 13y ago
  Yeah, and it's really f*cking annoying to try to do that on a remote desktop to a Win2012 server with the same horrible UI. On a desktop you can just drag your cursor to the bottom right.. in an RDP window, it isn't so easy. Beyond that, Metro is horrible when you have more than one large monitor. The UI simple doesn't scale well in that environment. It looks like 8.1 update 1 will finally be much closer to how it should have been. It reminds me of Vista, where half the control panel UI was updated, and half wasn't, and it was just a bad mix of old/new. I don't mind a new UI. For that matter, I'm really digging Ubuntu's Unity interface, ymmv on that. I think that Windows 7 had a really nice UI, and that metro should have been an option on top of that from the beginning. Trying to make a unifying UX for interfaces from your phone to tablet to dual-monitor desktops just doesn't work that well. You really need two options, and making the UI work for those metro apps in the desktop context makes more sense.
  - yuhong 13y ago
    Yeah, and it's really fcking annoying to try to do that on a remote desktop to a Win2012 server with the same horrible UI. On a desktop you can just drag your cursor to the bottom right.. in an RDP window, it isn't so easy. And the Server 2012 R2 upgrade was not free unlike Win8.1. While at it, don't forget the lack of IE11 too.
  - steve-howard 13y ago
    Over RDP, I'd just use the Windows+C shortcut. Haven't been a huge fan of "Modern UI," but you can learn to work with it. Disclaimer: MSFT employee, opinions my own.
    - spacelizard 13y ago
      That doesn't work if you're RDPing from another Win8 machine, the local OS swallows the keybind. What you actually need to press is Alt + Home or Alt + Delete (good luck figuring that out without doing a web search). I'm actually really confused why this is, it seems to be such an important use case. I would not be surprised if they didn't even test WS2012.
- jyrkesh 13y ago
  Or even better, right-click the bottom left corner of the screen, go to Shutdown or Sign-out. Along with a ton of other stuff that power users want most of the time.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Aldo_MX 13y ago
The UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks wasn't the problem, forcing Metro without a Touchscreen was the problem.
sonnyz 13y ago
I do this all the time. Just right click the windows icon in the bottom LEFT corner. A context menu pops up with an option to shutdown, restart, log out, or sleep.
three14 13y ago
Or press the Windows Key together with I.
bananas 13y ago
Win+x, U, U Much better than ANY other version of windows ever. Then again I'm a power user.
- greyskull 13y ago
  If you really want mouse clicks, you can right click the "start button" and get the Win+X menu.
gnopgnip 13y ago
Press windows key + X and click shutdown. Or press the power button
MBCook 13y ago
> Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? I've been out of Windows for a long time, is this something that comes up much? Even with a laptop, I'd think you mostly be suspending it by closing the lid. Can you still use the physical power button to bring up the shutdown menu?
- rikkus 13y ago
  It's something you hardly ever do. Even if there's been some kind of installation/update that requires a reboot, it tends to be able to trigger that itself (which can cause other pain, but that's for another day). There are some people who like to shut down their machines, though. I think they haven't forgotten the days when a good reboot once a day was necessary to clear out cobwebs.
  - MBCook 13y ago
    That's what I figured. I reboot my Mac when updates require it, and every once in a while if something weird is going on I might reboot it, but by and large my computer has uptime's in the weeks.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > Even if there's been some kind of installation/update that requires a reboot Oh so they still have those in Win8. I didn't miss that when I moved to Linux. Reboots for Updates is a broken concept.
    - MBCook 13y ago
      I wonder if they're true reboots. On OS X it's somewhat rare for an update for require a reboot. Often they don't actually reboot the machine but just log you out, perform the update, and then log you back in. While these updates feel like a reboot since you lose your desktop environment state, you can tell the difference if you're paying close enough attention.
      - 13y ago
kyledilger 13y ago
I just go to the desktop (win+d)and hit alt+f4

toxicityj 13y ago

I don't know if I really mind the metro crap being there. Some of the "at a glance" stuff will be really useful (weather, mail, social, etc.) for quick views. In some ways that stuff already is useful, but having to roll out the big start menu that incompasses my entire screen to view was a bit silly, imo.

bushido 13y ago

8.1 has the option to boot to desktop, they could enable that by default. Personally I don't see Metro as a UI failure, my productivity actually increased with metro. I rarely need to use the mouse, which is great. Also, hitting the windows key to switch screens is not a big deal, my grand parents complain about it a little, but the pains of having to explain finding stuff in the start menu to them and other older relatives has stopped happening. Additionally with the docking capability of the task bar aka "pin program to task bar" had made the start menu quite redundant since win 7.

iaskwhy 13y ago
With 8.1 Update 1 booting to desktop will be the default.
lugg 13y ago
My mother recently got a new laptop and wanted that new "windows 8.1 thingy and a touch screen" I dont think she even noticed that the start menu was gone.
daigoba66 13y ago
> my productivity actually increased with metro How so? What productivity enhancements exist in Win8 that do not in Win7? This is a genuine question. I upgraded to and use Win8 daily for about 14 months now because I like running the latest stable software (from any vendor). But, with the exception of no longer being able to search without going full screen, it's exactly the same. Edit There is one fairly big enhancement I completely forgot about: the "power users menu" accessible via right-click in the bottom left corner or by pressing Windows-X. Of course this has nothing to do with "metro".
- greyskull 13y ago
  > no longer being able to search without going full screen Press WindowsKey + S to slide in a sidebar on your current monitor. It took me a short while to adjust but I use it naturally now.
  - 13y ago

yaeger 13y ago

Exactly. I don't see MS as humble here at all. They are backtracking because they are forced to backtrack as it is evident that their idea of an OS does not work. But do they backtrack in the right fashion? No. "As little as possible" seems to be the mission statement. People want the old start menue back. They voice their opinions as "Where is the start button?" To anyone with half a brain it should be clear that they didn't just mean the UI element of that button but the functionality behind it. And as much as I hate Microsoft's shortcomings as of late, I doubt that they really believed "Well, if they just want that button, give them the button but once clicked it'll still do the same shift to metro it did before. That should give people what they want" I doubt anybody could be that dense. And even this "return of the old start menue" is not what people want. As they still keep on with the Metro part of things. A simple choice during install. Is all that is needed. "Do you want touch or desktop?" Touch meaning Metro and desktop meaning, well, desktop. Without any metro tile nonsense what-so-ever. Done. All of the issues with Win8 and I mean all of them would be gone. But that doesn't fit with Microsoft's vision of having tiles everywhere. So, by the way they are "fixing" win8 and refusing to acknowledge that metro needs to die, at least on the desktop, I really doubt that "Win9" would be any better. We finally get off the "every other version of windows is usable" because now, every version of windows will be worse than its predecessor.