11 ms·

It's always nice to see UI/UX people respond to user input and admit when they are wrong, rather than berate their users for not understanding the product. Thi

by Crito 13y ago

It's always nice to see UI/UX people respond to user input and admit when they are wrong, rather than berate their users for not understanding the product. This sort of humbleness seems to be becoming increasingly rare. In the past Microsoft has done well for themselves by listening to their business users and prioritizing their concerns about backwards compatibility. I hope this revert represents a natural continuation of that policy.

soup10 13y ago
Except they've added all that metro crap to the already cluttered start menu. Their UI team is still a long way from acknowledging the failure of integrating metro with the desktop; and windows 8 will continue to be a mess until they do.
- sonnyz 13y ago
  Hopefully they'll have an option to use a smaller start menu, like in the past.
- bratsche 13y ago
  Metro itself wasn't the problem though, imo. It's the UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks that is the problem. Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? Go to the start screen. Click your name, sign out, click the screen so it 'opens', click the power button, click restart or shutdown from the menu.
  - TheCoreh 13y ago
    Or just go to the bottom right corner of the screen, wait for the charms bar to pop up, click the Preferences icon then shutdown. Which still doesn't make a lot of sense, but is simpler than what you described.
    - jsight 13y ago
      Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. There are a lot of things about Metro that I dislike, but killing the "don't touch the power button on a computer" idiom is one that I do like.
      - stan_rogers 13y ago
        Except that that gets you precisely one option, which isn't even normally the one I'm looking for. When pressing the power button somehow gives the the restart/sleep/shutdown option, then it will make sense.
      - T-hawk 13y ago
        This has been around forever, since at least Windows 2000. The power button signals the OS through ACPI to shut down correctly. It wasn't always reliable on all hardware and BIOSes, and didn't always default to that behavior until set in Control Panel - Power Options, but soft power-off is supposed to have been working for a long time and is hardly new.
        yuhong 13y ago
        Yea, Windows has required ACPI to boot since Vista.
      - akandiah 13y ago
        > Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. No it doesn't. Pressing the power button implements what the PC maker wants to implement. In many cases (especially on laptops) it's for the computer to go to sleep.
        renata 13y ago
        Nope. Settings -> Power Options -> Change what the power button does.
    - bratsche 13y ago
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - Aldo_MX 13y ago
    The UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks wasn't the problem, forcing Metro without a Touchscreen was the problem.
  - sonnyz 13y ago
    I do this all the time. Just right click the windows icon in the bottom LEFT corner. A context menu pops up with an option to shutdown, restart, log out, or sleep.
  - three14 13y ago
    Or press the Windows Key together with I.
  - bananas 13y ago
    Win+x, U, U Much better than ANY other version of windows ever. Then again I'm a power user.
    - greyskull 13y ago
      If you really want mouse clicks, you can right click the "start button" and get the Win+X menu.
  - gnopgnip 13y ago
    Press windows key + X and click shutdown. Or press the power button
  - MBCook 13y ago
    > Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? I've been out of Windows for a long time, is this something that comes up much? Even with a laptop, I'd think you mostly be suspending it by closing the lid. Can you still use the physical power button to bring up the shutdown menu?
    - rikkus 13y ago
      It's something you hardly ever do. Even if there's been some kind of installation/update that requires a reboot, it tends to be able to trigger that itself (which can cause other pain, but that's for another day). There are some people who like to shut down their machines, though. I think they haven't forgotten the days when a good reboot once a day was necessary to clear out cobwebs.
      - MBCook 13y ago
        That's what I figured. I reboot my Mac when updates require it, and every once in a while if something weird is going on I might reboot it, but by and large my computer has uptime's in the weeks.
      - ekianjo 13y ago
        > Even if there's been some kind of installation/update that requires a reboot Oh so they still have those in Win8. I didn't miss that when I moved to Linux. Reboots for Updates is a broken concept.
        MBCook 13y ago
        I wonder if they're true reboots. On OS X it's somewhat rare for an update for require a reboot. Often they don't actually reboot the machine but just log you out, perform the update, and then log you back in. While these updates feel like a reboot since you lose your desktop environment state, you can tell the difference if you're paying close enough attention.
        13y ago
  - kyledilger 13y ago
    I just go to the desktop (win+d)and hit alt+f4
- toxicityj 13y ago
  I don't know if I really mind the metro crap being there. Some of the "at a glance" stuff will be really useful (weather, mail, social, etc.) for quick views. In some ways that stuff already is useful, but having to roll out the big start menu that incompasses my entire screen to view was a bit silly, imo.
- bushido 13y ago
  8.1 has the option to boot to desktop, they could enable that by default. Personally I don't see Metro as a UI failure, my productivity actually increased with metro. I rarely need to use the mouse, which is great. Also, hitting the windows key to switch screens is not a big deal, my grand parents complain about it a little, but the pains of having to explain finding stuff in the start menu to them and other older relatives has stopped happening. Additionally with the docking capability of the task bar aka "pin program to task bar" had made the start menu quite redundant since win 7.
  - iaskwhy 13y ago
    With 8.1 Update 1 booting to desktop will be the default.
  - lugg 13y ago
    My mother recently got a new laptop and wanted that new "windows 8.1 thingy and a touch screen" I dont think she even noticed that the start menu was gone.
  - daigoba66 13y ago
    > my productivity actually increased with metro How so? What productivity enhancements exist in Win8 that do not in Win7? This is a genuine question. I upgraded to and use Win8 daily for about 14 months now because I like running the latest stable software (from any vendor). But, with the exception of no longer being able to search without going full screen, it's exactly the same. Edit There is one fairly big enhancement I completely forgot about: the "power users menu" accessible via right-click in the bottom left corner or by pressing Windows-X. Of course this has nothing to do with "metro".
    - greyskull 13y ago
      > no longer being able to search without going full screen Press WindowsKey + S to slide in a sidebar on your current monitor. It took me a short while to adjust but I use it naturally now.
      - 13y ago
- yaeger 13y ago
  Exactly. I don't see MS as humble here at all. They are backtracking because they are forced to backtrack as it is evident that their idea of an OS does not work. But do they backtrack in the right fashion? No. "As little as possible" seems to be the mission statement. People want the old start menue back. They voice their opinions as "Where is the start button?" To anyone with half a brain it should be clear that they didn't just mean the UI element of that button but the functionality behind it. And as much as I hate Microsoft's shortcomings as of late, I doubt that they really believed "Well, if they just want that button, give them the button but once clicked it'll still do the same shift to metro it did before. That should give people what they want" I doubt anybody could be that dense. And even this "return of the old start menue" is not what people want. As they still keep on with the Metro part of things. A simple choice during install. Is all that is needed. "Do you want touch or desktop?" Touch meaning Metro and desktop meaning, well, desktop. Without any metro tile nonsense what-so-ever. Done. All of the issues with Win8 and I mean all of them would be gone. But that doesn't fit with Microsoft's vision of having tiles everywhere. So, by the way they are "fixing" win8 and refusing to acknowledge that metro needs to die, at least on the desktop, I really doubt that "Win9" would be any better. We finally get off the "every other version of windows is usable" because now, every version of windows will be worse than its predecessor.
tsunamifury 13y ago
I agree, however some user-loved UX paradigms hold you back from moving the product forward (Faster buggy problem) and listening to your users complain about nostalgia slowly makes you less competitive once some other company launches a better, newer UX. That being said, nothing is an excuse for a bad or confusing UX pattern -- and Windows 8 had plenty of those on TOP of removing the start button, making people less forgiving of its removal.
camus2 13y ago
makes me wonder,what kind of A/B testing they did before launching W8 at first place, or ModernUI was supposed to replce it, or was it just because some executive decided people did not need a start menu anymore. Any input on that?
- protonfish 13y ago
  My guess is the same user testing MS always does: ask the suits if they like it.
  - theg2 13y ago
    Oh, are we already jumping on the bash Microsoft band wagon so soon? You seriously think a company like Microsoft did no usability testing? That'd be quite shocking as Metro itself utilizes a ton of new research on UX and interaction design.
    - protonfish 13y ago
      Oh, please. Stop denouncing all criticism as the "bash MS bandwagon." Removing the start menu was a terrible idea that anyone who cared could have predicted - MS screwed up somewhere. But this is no surprise. Their UI design has been consistently poor for decades. Sure maybe they did user studies but their dog ate them. Maybe their initial designs were all so poor that what they rolled out was the best of the bunch. Maybe they had the most amazing UI design but couldn't get it through the office politics. I don't know everything they failed at in their process but it doesn't matter. Whatever it is they are doing doesn't work.
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        "Removing the start menu was a terrible idea that anyone who cared could have predicted" Why?
        protonfish 13y ago
        It's a core paradigm of windows for as long as I remember. If you removed the steering wheel from your car do you think drivers would be surprised? Upset? Confused? If you had any common sense and don't have a case of Microsoft stockholm syndrome you would.
The_Octopode 13y ago
UI - users know what they want Functionality - users think they know what they want
aaronbrethorst 13y ago
It undoubtedly helps that the key people behind the Windows 8 Ux have either left Microsoft or left the Windows org. So perhaps it's less 'we screwed up,' and more 'they screwed up.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Sinofsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Sinofsky http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/exec/larsongreen/default.aspx?Search=true http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/exec/larsongreen/default... http://www.geekwire.com/2013/microsoft-windows-shakeup-continues-app-store-ux-leaders-move-bing-team/ http://www.geekwire.com/2013/microsoft-windows-shakeup-conti...
frik 13y ago
For Win9 we can only hope the UI gets new sane colors! Windows 95, XP, Vista/7 all had nice color choices for their time. The Win8.x metro colors look like chosen by a color blind person. Or to celebrate the 30th anniversary of Windows 1.0 by a retro color theme.
- dragontamer 13y ago
  Wut? Did someone just praise XP's singular color scheme? I guess everything really does look better in hindsight. http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/windows-xp-color-schemes-never-were http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/windows-xp-color-...
  - TillE 13y ago
    Windows XP had a perfectly nice "classic" skin.
    - dragontamer 13y ago
      You are clearly too young to remember the rage people had back then. WinXP was "Busy" compared to Win98. Those who wanted busier, more colorful schemes could always install a color pack or customize their windows as appropriately. WinXP released with basically one colorpack, and removed the option of going back to the older "classier" gray look from Win98 / Win95.
- plaguuuuuu 13y ago
  95 was pretty groundbreaking. Vista was nice tho. But XP felt a bit fisher-price even at launch :p The Win8 colors look like someone ate a color palette and then barfed it all over the wireframes. It's horrible
ekianjo 13y ago
> It's always nice to see UI/UX people respond to user input and admit when they are wrong, rather than berate their users for not understanding the product. This sort of humbleness seems to be becoming increasingly rare. You must be kidding. In a big company like Microsoft I would have hoped they listen to user feedback BEFORE they release stuff, not just after. This is really the wrong way to design UI - they were clearly not humble in the first place when they pushed for the removal of the start button, but they still went on with it.
Fuxy 13y ago
It's about time. Windows 8 with metro is decent on a touch screen but on a device not touch enabled it's a nightmare. Not to mention those touchpad gestures. Removing start from the desktop was the worst move ever in history.
- ryan-allen 13y ago
  I agree, Metro on a small touch device is good, and being able to drop to the desktop to do "computer stuff" is awesome when you need it. On a 27" desktop? Oh god, Metro is a nightmare. I've been using StartIsBack but I'm glad there'll be a properly sanctioned start menu soon. Hopefully it will lead to greater adoption of Win8, as besides that one major blunder, is not too bad at all!

by Crito 13y ago

soup10 13y ago

Except they've added all that metro crap to the already cluttered start menu. Their UI team is still a long way from acknowledging the failure of integrating metro with the desktop; and windows 8 will continue to be a mess until they do.

sonnyz 13y ago
Hopefully they'll have an option to use a smaller start menu, like in the past.
bratsche 13y ago
Metro itself wasn't the problem though, imo. It's the UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks that is the problem. Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? Go to the start screen. Click your name, sign out, click the screen so it 'opens', click the power button, click restart or shutdown from the menu.
- TheCoreh 13y ago
  Or just go to the bottom right corner of the screen, wait for the charms bar to pop up, click the Preferences icon then shutdown. Which still doesn't make a lot of sense, but is simpler than what you described.
  - jsight 13y ago
    Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. There are a lot of things about Metro that I dislike, but killing the "don't touch the power button on a computer" idiom is one that I do like.
    - stan_rogers 13y ago
      Except that that gets you precisely one option, which isn't even normally the one I'm looking for. When pressing the power button somehow gives the the restart/sleep/shutdown option, then it will make sense.
    - T-hawk 13y ago
      This has been around forever, since at least Windows 2000. The power button signals the OS through ACPI to shut down correctly. It wasn't always reliable on all hardware and BIOSes, and didn't always default to that behavior until set in Control Panel - Power Options, but soft power-off is supposed to have been working for a long time and is hardly new.
      - yuhong 13y ago
        Yea, Windows has required ACPI to boot since Vista.
    - akandiah 13y ago
      > Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. No it doesn't. Pressing the power button implements what the PC maker wants to implement. In many cases (especially on laptops) it's for the computer to go to sleep.
      - renata 13y ago
        Nope. Settings -> Power Options -> Change what the power button does.
  - bratsche 13y ago
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Aldo_MX 13y ago
  The UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks wasn't the problem, forcing Metro without a Touchscreen was the problem.
- sonnyz 13y ago
  I do this all the time. Just right click the windows icon in the bottom LEFT corner. A context menu pops up with an option to shutdown, restart, log out, or sleep.
- three14 13y ago
  Or press the Windows Key together with I.
- bananas 13y ago
  Win+x, U, U Much better than ANY other version of windows ever. Then again I'm a power user.
  - greyskull 13y ago
    If you really want mouse clicks, you can right click the "start button" and get the Win+X menu.
- gnopgnip 13y ago
  Press windows key + X and click shutdown. Or press the power button
- MBCook 13y ago
  > Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? I've been out of Windows for a long time, is this something that comes up much? Even with a laptop, I'd think you mostly be suspending it by closing the lid. Can you still use the physical power button to bring up the shutdown menu?
  - rikkus 13y ago
    It's something you hardly ever do. Even if there's been some kind of installation/update that requires a reboot, it tends to be able to trigger that itself (which can cause other pain, but that's for another day). There are some people who like to shut down their machines, though. I think they haven't forgotten the days when a good reboot once a day was necessary to clear out cobwebs.
    - MBCook 13y ago
      That's what I figured. I reboot my Mac when updates require it, and every once in a while if something weird is going on I might reboot it, but by and large my computer has uptime's in the weeks.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      > Even if there's been some kind of installation/update that requires a reboot Oh so they still have those in Win8. I didn't miss that when I moved to Linux. Reboots for Updates is a broken concept.
      - MBCook 13y ago
        I wonder if they're true reboots. On OS X it's somewhat rare for an update for require a reboot. Often they don't actually reboot the machine but just log you out, perform the update, and then log you back in. While these updates feel like a reboot since you lose your desktop environment state, you can tell the difference if you're paying close enough attention.
        13y ago
- kyledilger 13y ago
  I just go to the desktop (win+d)and hit alt+f4
toxicityj 13y ago
I don't know if I really mind the metro crap being there. Some of the "at a glance" stuff will be really useful (weather, mail, social, etc.) for quick views. In some ways that stuff already is useful, but having to roll out the big start menu that incompasses my entire screen to view was a bit silly, imo.
bushido 13y ago
8.1 has the option to boot to desktop, they could enable that by default. Personally I don't see Metro as a UI failure, my productivity actually increased with metro. I rarely need to use the mouse, which is great. Also, hitting the windows key to switch screens is not a big deal, my grand parents complain about it a little, but the pains of having to explain finding stuff in the start menu to them and other older relatives has stopped happening. Additionally with the docking capability of the task bar aka "pin program to task bar" had made the start menu quite redundant since win 7.
- iaskwhy 13y ago
  With 8.1 Update 1 booting to desktop will be the default.
- lugg 13y ago
  My mother recently got a new laptop and wanted that new "windows 8.1 thingy and a touch screen" I dont think she even noticed that the start menu was gone.
- daigoba66 13y ago
  > my productivity actually increased with metro How so? What productivity enhancements exist in Win8 that do not in Win7? This is a genuine question. I upgraded to and use Win8 daily for about 14 months now because I like running the latest stable software (from any vendor). But, with the exception of no longer being able to search without going full screen, it's exactly the same. Edit There is one fairly big enhancement I completely forgot about: the "power users menu" accessible via right-click in the bottom left corner or by pressing Windows-X. Of course this has nothing to do with "metro".
  - greyskull 13y ago
    > no longer being able to search without going full screen Press WindowsKey + S to slide in a sidebar on your current monitor. It took me a short while to adjust but I use it naturally now.
    - 13y ago
yaeger 13y ago
Exactly. I don't see MS as humble here at all. They are backtracking because they are forced to backtrack as it is evident that their idea of an OS does not work. But do they backtrack in the right fashion? No. "As little as possible" seems to be the mission statement. People want the old start menue back. They voice their opinions as "Where is the start button?" To anyone with half a brain it should be clear that they didn't just mean the UI element of that button but the functionality behind it. And as much as I hate Microsoft's shortcomings as of late, I doubt that they really believed "Well, if they just want that button, give them the button but once clicked it'll still do the same shift to metro it did before. That should give people what they want" I doubt anybody could be that dense. And even this "return of the old start menue" is not what people want. As they still keep on with the Metro part of things. A simple choice during install. Is all that is needed. "Do you want touch or desktop?" Touch meaning Metro and desktop meaning, well, desktop. Without any metro tile nonsense what-so-ever. Done. All of the issues with Win8 and I mean all of them would be gone. But that doesn't fit with Microsoft's vision of having tiles everywhere. So, by the way they are "fixing" win8 and refusing to acknowledge that metro needs to die, at least on the desktop, I really doubt that "Win9" would be any better. We finally get off the "every other version of windows is usable" because now, every version of windows will be worse than its predecessor.

tsunamifury 13y ago

I agree, however some user-loved UX paradigms hold you back from moving the product forward (Faster buggy problem) and listening to your users complain about nostalgia slowly makes you less competitive once some other company launches a better, newer UX. That being said, nothing is an excuse for a bad or confusing UX pattern -- and Windows 8 had plenty of those on TOP of removing the start button, making people less forgiving of its removal.

camus2 13y ago

makes me wonder,what kind of A/B testing they did before launching W8 at first place, or ModernUI was supposed to replce it, or was it just because some executive decided people did not need a start menu anymore. Any input on that?

protonfish 13y ago
My guess is the same user testing MS always does: ask the suits if they like it.
- theg2 13y ago
  Oh, are we already jumping on the bash Microsoft band wagon so soon? You seriously think a company like Microsoft did no usability testing? That'd be quite shocking as Metro itself utilizes a ton of new research on UX and interaction design.
  - protonfish 13y ago
    Oh, please. Stop denouncing all criticism as the "bash MS bandwagon." Removing the start menu was a terrible idea that anyone who cared could have predicted - MS screwed up somewhere. But this is no surprise. Their UI design has been consistently poor for decades. Sure maybe they did user studies but their dog ate them. Maybe their initial designs were all so poor that what they rolled out was the best of the bunch. Maybe they had the most amazing UI design but couldn't get it through the office politics. I don't know everything they failed at in their process but it doesn't matter. Whatever it is they are doing doesn't work.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      "Removing the start menu was a terrible idea that anyone who cared could have predicted" Why?
      - protonfish 13y ago
        It's a core paradigm of windows for as long as I remember. If you removed the steering wheel from your car do you think drivers would be surprised? Upset? Confused? If you had any common sense and don't have a case of Microsoft stockholm syndrome you would.

The_Octopode 13y ago

UI - users know what they want Functionality - users think they know what they want

aaronbrethorst 13y ago

It undoubtedly helps that the key people behind the Windows 8 Ux have either left Microsoft or left the Windows org. So perhaps it's less 'we screwed up,' and more 'they screwed up.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Sinofsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Sinofsky http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/exec/larsongreen/default.aspx?Search=true http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/exec/larsongreen/default... http://www.geekwire.com/2013/microsoft-windows-shakeup-continues-app-store-ux-leaders-move-bing-team/ http://www.geekwire.com/2013/microsoft-windows-shakeup-conti...

frik 13y ago

For Win9 we can only hope the UI gets new sane colors! Windows 95, XP, Vista/7 all had nice color choices for their time. The Win8.x metro colors look like chosen by a color blind person. Or to celebrate the 30th anniversary of Windows 1.0 by a retro color theme.

dragontamer 13y ago
Wut? Did someone just praise XP's singular color scheme? I guess everything really does look better in hindsight. http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/windows-xp-color-schemes-never-were http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/windows-xp-color-...
- TillE 13y ago
  Windows XP had a perfectly nice "classic" skin.
  - dragontamer 13y ago
    You are clearly too young to remember the rage people had back then. WinXP was "Busy" compared to Win98. Those who wanted busier, more colorful schemes could always install a color pack or customize their windows as appropriately. WinXP released with basically one colorpack, and removed the option of going back to the older "classier" gray look from Win98 / Win95.
plaguuuuuu 13y ago
95 was pretty groundbreaking. Vista was nice tho. But XP felt a bit fisher-price even at launch :p The Win8 colors look like someone ate a color palette and then barfed it all over the wireframes. It's horrible

ekianjo 13y ago

> It's always nice to see UI/UX people respond to user input and admit when they are wrong, rather than berate their users for not understanding the product. This sort of humbleness seems to be becoming increasingly rare. You must be kidding. In a big company like Microsoft I would have hoped they listen to user feedback BEFORE they release stuff, not just after. This is really the wrong way to design UI - they were clearly not humble in the first place when they pushed for the removal of the start button, but they still went on with it.

Fuxy 13y ago

It's about time. Windows 8 with metro is decent on a touch screen but on a device not touch enabled it's a nightmare. Not to mention those touchpad gestures. Removing start from the desktop was the worst move ever in history.

ryan-allen 13y ago
I agree, Metro on a small touch device is good, and being able to drop to the desktop to do "computer stuff" is awesome when you need it. On a 27" desktop? Oh god, Metro is a nightmare. I've been using StartIsBack but I'm glad there'll be a properly sanctioned start menu soon. Hopefully it will lead to greater adoption of Win8, as besides that one major blunder, is not too bad at all!