5 ms·

I rarely agree with the author of this blog post : - "Don't bother mentioning your G.P.A." : I know firms are only interested in your diploma's name, but it ca

by luch 13y ago

I rarely agree with the author of this blog post : - "Don't bother mentioning your G.P.A." : I know firms are only interested in your diploma's name, but it can be an advantage to mention you passed summa cum laude whereas another barely made it by coasting and offloading his share of works on others students (which is unfortunately a useful skill in the workplace). - "Don't bother using verbs other than "made" for programming projects." : I completely disagree. Using the exact verb to describe your work show your understanding of the tasks which fell onto you, but also your writing proficiency (which will be reflected in the quality of your comments). - "Answer this: where can I look at some stuff you built?" Github is a nice place to show-off your skill but not everyone is interested in open-source side-projects, so it's not a silver bullet. - "Answer this: which languages and databases do you prefer?" Well, if you want to pass the résumes' automatic parser used by the HR dep., you need to stuff your application with keywords anyway. - "Don't bring up your hobbies." : This one really raised my hair. Not everyone is tweeting every part of their life (I certainly don't) so hobbies are a great way to lighten the mood during the interview and assessing the interviewee's personality.

boobsbr 13y ago
> Answer this: where can I look at some stuff you built? You can't, it's closed source proprietary internal stuff. And I'm not allowed to talk too much about it because I had to sign a NDA.
- zimpenfish 13y ago
  I don't have NDAs but I have the same kind of problem - lots of things I've done have been internal tools/systems which aren't visible or wouldn't make sense to anyone outside the relevant companies.
  - johnward 13y ago
    I see the same but the job hunt seems to favor OSS. if you can't share code you write at work then the other option I'd to give up free/family time to do some side project you can share.
- yen223 13y ago
  Either that, or it's code that runs machines that most people haven't even heard of. Not everyone builds web-apps for a living.
- bicx 13y ago
  This. And while learning is important, I really am getting tired of the bullshit line about everyone needing open-source side projects (and this is coming from a guy who enjoys side projects). How many other professionals need side projects for legitimization? My mechanical engineering friends build stuff too, but no one's expecting them to bring in a home-made contraption for their interviews.
  - Qworg 13y ago
    Anecdote: A guy who wanted one of our open mechanical/embedded positions came in with something he built and programmed. It was super impressive side work and helped him stand out. Sadly, when you're competing against the world for many positions, you need every possible advantage.
  - JazCE 13y ago
    Fully agree. I wouldn't discount anyone for not having a github project. I have a life outside of work, i enjoy going out and being with friends and family. I spend most of my waking hours during the week at my machine coding, it's not something I want to do at the weekend, and that doesn't make me a bad coder.
- NKCSS 13y ago
  There's always something to tell. Even when under NDA, you can link to the company/product you worked on, can't you? I did on my 'about' page ( http://nickkusters.com/About http://nickkusters.com/About ) for stuff that was under NDA and I haven't had any comments.
  - mrsteveman1 13y ago
    Did you know some of the links at the bottom are spitting out 500's? But hey that's a lot of interesting stuff you've worked on :)
- neverminder 13y ago
  I have to second that. When you work in a team of >20 on a closed source enterprise software which is also not public facing - there's little to nothing to show. I can't help but think that only a small fraction of programmers are actually lucky enough to work on some open source projects that make a difference and there's something to show.
eshvk 13y ago
> "Don't bring up your hobbies." : This one really raised my hair. Not everyone is tweeting every part of their life (I certainly don't) so hobbies are a great way to lighten the mood during the interview and assessing the interviewee's personality. I think it is fluff. Unless you are going to put something strikingly like juggling live swords, it is something I would glaze over. There are other ways to lighten the mood (like small talk) during the interview. > - "Don't bother mentioning your G.P.A." : I know firms are only interested in your diploma's name, but it can be an advantage to mention you passed summa cum laude whereas another barely made it by coasting and offloading his share of works on others students (which is unfortunately a useful skill in the workplace). Only if you are close to fresh out of school. If someone has five years of experience and mentions his GPA, I either think he has not updated that portion of his resume (which is OK) or that he still thinks I care about what he did five years ago in an ivory tower (which I really don't).
- _puk 13y ago
  > I think it is fluff. You may think so, but you've no idea who is ultimately reading your resume. Granted keep it short, but more than once this has got someone from the "maybe" pile into the "we'll take a look cos he plays bass" pile.
alttab 13y ago
As a hiring manager, I actually care about your GPA. There is some self-selection with those that have a 3.9+. It means they cared about the topic, they went to class consistently, and they performed well during tests (under pressure). I'd much rather have the motivated, driven guy who wants to dot his I's and cross his T's than a programmer who thinks that learning big-O notation isn't worth it, that learning software engineering methodology is a waste of time, and operating systems is dumb because all hiring positions want Java programmers. High GPAs come with certain attitudes built in. It is not the only indicator of success, but when I see anything less than a 3.5 it makes me question the candidate's grit. Is that how you are going to behave when you are given work you don't like, or do not deem is important? We are paying you "A+" salaries, we want A+ work. Not night-before C- "I turned it in" software.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Do you weight against school and course load? It's easy to get a 3.9 GPA and it's easy to take a few upper division math classes taught by a top field professor and get much less than that. The 3.0 I got in my upper level discrete math was more meaningful than the 4.0 that I got in most of my upper level CS courses (and with a phd, it's all moot now a anyways). I see so many 4.0 students from top schools that it doesn't even turn my eye anymore (grade inflation is a bad problem in china).
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Right, and I keep remembering schoolmates saying "you're taking that? But this is an easy A..."
- nraynaud 13y ago
  It's also a very good indicator of obedience. Someone who cares about painting in the lines, and pleasing authority. Which is very important in some companies.
- MetaCosm 13y ago
  As a non-hiring manager, who has hired 159 software developers and interviewed probably over 1000. I have found high GPA to have negative correlation with success. When I started, I had absolutely no idea how to hire -- so I just kept track of good hires and bad and looked for correlations to help me hire better in the future. Two biggest things in my personal experience that ended up with amazing hires. Unashamed to admit they don't know something in the interview, treat it as a matter of simple fact - they don't know yet, but can find out. Program in multiple languages / explore languages / can speak about strengths and weaknesses across languages. In my (obviously limited) experience, high GPAs have correlated to poor or even poisonous personalities. Often arrogant without merit, unable to change positions because of ego, and with an inability to adapt and learn. Google appears to have done an experiment on a much grander scale and come to similar (but IMHO a little better written up) conclusions: http://qz.com/180247/why-google-doesnt-care-about-hiring-top-college-graduates/ http://qz.com/180247/why-google-doesnt-care-about-hiring-top...
sergiotapia 13y ago
I think GPA is actually important as well - but only if you're straight out of school. If you have work experience and have proven to be an asset to the company you work for, who cares about a silly school number? C's get degrees my friend.
danielweber 13y ago
Database preference is almost silly, once you have figured out the general type of DB you need. If you are in the realm of open-source RDBMS, "do you prefer MySQL or Postgres?" seems designed to just start a religious war. (Yes, there are differences, and I could tell them to you. If you want the differences, ask.) Added: How are you using hobbies to evaluate the person's personality matters? Does someone who coaches his son's ultimate Frisbee team have a better personality than someone who plays with his Raspberry Pi?
dllthomas 13y ago
"it can be an advantage to mention you passed summa cum laude whereas another barely made it by coasting and offloading his share of works on others students" Coasting and offloading work don't necessarily negatively correlate with GPA. Some of the people I knew in school who cared most about GPA would 1) pick the easiest classes they could find and 2) push as much of the work as they could onto others, neither of which was particularly impressive.

by luch 13y ago

boobsbr 13y ago

> Answer this: where can I look at some stuff you built? You can't, it's closed source proprietary internal stuff. And I'm not allowed to talk too much about it because I had to sign a NDA.

zimpenfish 13y ago
I don't have NDAs but I have the same kind of problem - lots of things I've done have been internal tools/systems which aren't visible or wouldn't make sense to anyone outside the relevant companies.
- johnward 13y ago
  I see the same but the job hunt seems to favor OSS. if you can't share code you write at work then the other option I'd to give up free/family time to do some side project you can share.
yen223 13y ago
Either that, or it's code that runs machines that most people haven't even heard of. Not everyone builds web-apps for a living.
bicx 13y ago
This. And while learning is important, I really am getting tired of the bullshit line about everyone needing open-source side projects (and this is coming from a guy who enjoys side projects). How many other professionals need side projects for legitimization? My mechanical engineering friends build stuff too, but no one's expecting them to bring in a home-made contraption for their interviews.
- Qworg 13y ago
  Anecdote: A guy who wanted one of our open mechanical/embedded positions came in with something he built and programmed. It was super impressive side work and helped him stand out. Sadly, when you're competing against the world for many positions, you need every possible advantage.
- JazCE 13y ago
  Fully agree. I wouldn't discount anyone for not having a github project. I have a life outside of work, i enjoy going out and being with friends and family. I spend most of my waking hours during the week at my machine coding, it's not something I want to do at the weekend, and that doesn't make me a bad coder.
NKCSS 13y ago
There's always something to tell. Even when under NDA, you can link to the company/product you worked on, can't you? I did on my 'about' page ( http://nickkusters.com/About http://nickkusters.com/About ) for stuff that was under NDA and I haven't had any comments.
- mrsteveman1 13y ago
  Did you know some of the links at the bottom are spitting out 500's? But hey that's a lot of interesting stuff you've worked on :)
neverminder 13y ago
I have to second that. When you work in a team of >20 on a closed source enterprise software which is also not public facing - there's little to nothing to show. I can't help but think that only a small fraction of programmers are actually lucky enough to work on some open source projects that make a difference and there's something to show.

eshvk 13y ago

> "Don't bring up your hobbies." : This one really raised my hair. Not everyone is tweeting every part of their life (I certainly don't) so hobbies are a great way to lighten the mood during the interview and assessing the interviewee's personality. I think it is fluff. Unless you are going to put something strikingly like juggling live swords, it is something I would glaze over. There are other ways to lighten the mood (like small talk) during the interview. > - "Don't bother mentioning your G.P.A." : I know firms are only interested in your diploma's name, but it can be an advantage to mention you passed summa cum laude whereas another barely made it by coasting and offloading his share of works on others students (which is unfortunately a useful skill in the workplace). Only if you are close to fresh out of school. If someone has five years of experience and mentions his GPA, I either think he has not updated that portion of his resume (which is OK) or that he still thinks I care about what he did five years ago in an ivory tower (which I really don't).

_puk 13y ago
> I think it is fluff. You may think so, but you've no idea who is ultimately reading your resume. Granted keep it short, but more than once this has got someone from the "maybe" pile into the "we'll take a look cos he plays bass" pile.

alttab 13y ago

As a hiring manager, I actually care about your GPA. There is some self-selection with those that have a 3.9+. It means they cared about the topic, they went to class consistently, and they performed well during tests (under pressure). I'd much rather have the motivated, driven guy who wants to dot his I's and cross his T's than a programmer who thinks that learning big-O notation isn't worth it, that learning software engineering methodology is a waste of time, and operating systems is dumb because all hiring positions want Java programmers. High GPAs come with certain attitudes built in. It is not the only indicator of success, but when I see anything less than a 3.5 it makes me question the candidate's grit. Is that how you are going to behave when you are given work you don't like, or do not deem is important? We are paying you "A+" salaries, we want A+ work. Not night-before C- "I turned it in" software.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Do you weight against school and course load? It's easy to get a 3.9 GPA and it's easy to take a few upper division math classes taught by a top field professor and get much less than that. The 3.0 I got in my upper level discrete math was more meaningful than the 4.0 that I got in most of my upper level CS courses (and with a phd, it's all moot now a anyways). I see so many 4.0 students from top schools that it doesn't even turn my eye anymore (grade inflation is a bad problem in china).
- dllthomas 13y ago
  Right, and I keep remembering schoolmates saying "you're taking that? But this is an easy A..."
nraynaud 13y ago
It's also a very good indicator of obedience. Someone who cares about painting in the lines, and pleasing authority. Which is very important in some companies.
MetaCosm 13y ago
As a non-hiring manager, who has hired 159 software developers and interviewed probably over 1000. I have found high GPA to have negative correlation with success. When I started, I had absolutely no idea how to hire -- so I just kept track of good hires and bad and looked for correlations to help me hire better in the future. Two biggest things in my personal experience that ended up with amazing hires. Unashamed to admit they don't know something in the interview, treat it as a matter of simple fact - they don't know yet, but can find out. Program in multiple languages / explore languages / can speak about strengths and weaknesses across languages. In my (obviously limited) experience, high GPAs have correlated to poor or even poisonous personalities. Often arrogant without merit, unable to change positions because of ego, and with an inability to adapt and learn. Google appears to have done an experiment on a much grander scale and come to similar (but IMHO a little better written up) conclusions: http://qz.com/180247/why-google-doesnt-care-about-hiring-top-college-graduates/ http://qz.com/180247/why-google-doesnt-care-about-hiring-top...

sergiotapia 13y ago

I think GPA is actually important as well - but only if you're straight out of school. If you have work experience and have proven to be an asset to the company you work for, who cares about a silly school number? C's get degrees my friend.

danielweber 13y ago

Database preference is almost silly, once you have figured out the general type of DB you need. If you are in the realm of open-source RDBMS, "do you prefer MySQL or Postgres?" seems designed to just start a religious war. (Yes, there are differences, and I could tell them to you. If you want the differences, ask.) Added: How are you using hobbies to evaluate the person's personality matters? Does someone who coaches his son's ultimate Frisbee team have a better personality than someone who plays with his Raspberry Pi?

dllthomas 13y ago

"it can be an advantage to mention you passed summa cum laude whereas another barely made it by coasting and offloading his share of works on others students" Coasting and offloading work don't necessarily negatively correlate with GPA. Some of the people I knew in school who cared most about GPA would 1) pick the easiest classes they could find and 2) push as much of the work as they could onto others, neither of which was particularly impressive.