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Here's the better idea. Get a 9 to 5 six figure job. It will be boring, I know. Life sucks like that sometimes. Most of us have one. Next, live like a paup

Here's the better idea. Get a 9 to 5 six figure job. It will be boring, I know. Life sucks like that sometimes. Most of us have one. Next, live like a pauper, saving 60-70+% of that income. Spend your free time doing exactly 3 things 1. working on a side project 2. spending time with your girlfriend. 3. exercise (never count this out, no matter what your life circumstances otherwise) Then just wait 5 more years. You will either have something going from your side project or you will have enough money saved to legitimately work full time on something without worrying about bills As far as the idea, go for something as boring as possible. Preferably something that someone else is already paying money for but that the incumbent product is shitty or lacking in some major way. Fix it or make it signficantly cheaper. Business is just a wrapper around value. Create value, get paid. That's how capitalism works.

cyphunk 13y ago
sound advice but may not fit if the OP was being driven by something other than making money. Also, some people have been doing the side project route for long enough to feel it is not working and they need to devote more time. i applaud the OP for pushing themselves but also agree that a well paying job is an option they may consider. Better yet, just variate between them. Spend a couple years trying to find collaborators and push projects, then a couple moving slow and steady on the side.
- emmelaich 13y ago
  That's ok, there's a whole spectrum of boring/interesting, well-paid/not so well-paid jobs. pyrrhotech's advice is exactly the one I was going to give. Work on some side project at the same time. And you know what? You might even like it, gain some skills and friends at work which will put in get stead for the rest of your life. The genius artist in an attic is a seductive myth.
cko 13y ago
I agree with this, probably because it fits my situation so well. I work a mind numbing pharmacist job, save 85% of my income and am working in side projects. One project is medical software because everything out there is currently very shitty. The savings are invested cash flowing securities. In five years you will have built up decent cash reserves. Now, you won't necessarily be living like a pauper. Just stop buying stupid shit and buy bare necessities.
- radnam 13y ago
  Hey CKO, Can you share what you are doing? Also I might have few pharma related questions for you.
blrgeek 13y ago
Exactly this. If you do not have a problem or product you are passionate about, then just work for someone else who is able to generate much better value out of your time. Read earlyretirementextreme or mrmoneymustache to see how you can get out of the rat race as fast as possible, and get back into doing startups (if that's what is exciting to you)
- noel82 13y ago
  Perfectly agree with that. And that's exactly what I'm doing so far: working for someone could be useful for improve yourself not only in what you'd like to do: side projects will benefit from this, believe me. I noticed improvements event in terms of analysis of problem solving.
vonseel 13y ago
Up-vote this, 1000x. Exercise changed my life, not long ago. :)
- rehack 13y ago
  Truly, exercise for Entrepreneurs can't be recommended enough. Before starting my Startup journey in 2006 I was 82-83 kgs (at around 6 feet, its sort of Okay). Went to 88 kgs, and felt bad in 2009. At present I am 80 kgs and feel much better. My routine: Runing: 7 kms on Tuesday and Thursday. 10 kms on Saturday. Strength: Just body weight - push ups and pull ups and crunches - on Monday and Friday Sprint runs: on Wednesday followed by some strength. Overall time spend is about 1.5 hours each day (because I don't hurry, and a relaxed stretching session after running) edit: format
hisyam 13y ago
What about us who live in developing nations and get paid less than USD1000 per month working as a dev? Saving money is hard over here.
- jkaljundi 13y ago
  In many developing nations you can save a lot even from a $1k salary. If not, dedicate some time to freelancing, either locally or via elance/odesk. Shoot let's say for $40k per hour and do 2-3 hours per evening of that, plus some time on weekends. 20 hours = $400 per week, $1600 per month additional. Do that for a year and you will have money to live on saved funds for 1,5 years.
  - dous 13y ago
    Depending on which country you live in, taxes can be a real pain and will only leave you with a small bit of your salary. Not to mention transportation could eat up a lot your otherwise "free time" in the evenings. :( I do agree that freelancing would definitely give some nice extra income but only if you're disciplined enough to find time for it.
- CmonDev 13y ago
  Typically devs earn way more than national average in developing nations though? At least in none-EU Eastern Europe.
- orkoden 13y ago
  Go and work in a developed nation for a couple of years?
  - jtheory 13y ago
    This is easier said than done. Most developed nations have all kinds of barriers and quotas in place to make it difficult for aliens to fill jobs that might otherwise be filled by citizens. Sometimes the right connections, company sponsorship, etc. can get you in; but if you're imagining just flying to the UK or wherever and getting a job, that's not possible. Even if a company there wants to hire you and is willing to jump through legal hoops it still may not be possible.
greenyoda 13y ago
The job won't necessarily even be boring. It's possible that you'll find a job working with smart people that you can learn useful things from.
- adrianhoward 13y ago
  Indeed. Every place I've worked - small or large - has been fun in one way or another, made me some friends, and taught me things I didn't know going in. I even made a few neat things that made people's lives better along the way. Yeah - I run my own company now. Because it gives me some other things that I value. But the idea that a normal job is always a terrible boring experience really does depend on the job. Not every employer on the planet is an asshat. Working for other people can be fun.
sitkack 13y ago
Don't work on the side project. Do _nothing_ .... go live life. Build skills, think, create, but don't work on an exit, how Christian.
- mercule 13y ago
  Sounds like he is building skills, thinking, and living life to me. He is failing at his current endeavor, but that is fine. Failure is good, builds character.
  - sitkack 13y ago
    Failure is excellent, wish I failed in bigger ways as a child, it gets more expensive as you age. Continuing to work on side projects is a still a sure way to burnout. Side projects of pure personal enrichment (exercise, art, etc) are what repower a person for greatness.
    - CmonDev 13y ago
      I am glad people like Wozniak chose to work on side projects.
      - madmadjo 13y ago
        Heh... +1 for this one.
      - sitkack 13y ago
        We are discussing side projects in the context of taking a 9-5 job because of constant startup burnout from grinding. I am not arguing against side projects. Your comment was a cheap shot, offtopic strawman, who is going to disagree with your statement? No one.
pawelkomarnicki 13y ago
You mister should write a book on how to be sane — I see many, many (actually everyone I know) ambitious people being wrecked by this "startup bullshit", believing they have to slave off, skip everything in life, because "success" ;)
- Taurenking 13y ago
  Only to find themselves empty-handend
shtolcers 13y ago
This advice is true gold! 100% agree with it.
pattle 13y ago
Agree with all of this but a "six figure job". I work in a developed nation and I'm not even close to that!
- kelnos 13y ago
  Depends on where you live, I guess. I imagine you could get yourself a 5-figure tech job and still save a lot if you live in a place where the cost of living is lower than somewhere like Silicon Valley.
Myrmornis 13y ago
Sadly, as I've got older, I've found that exercise tires me out so that I can not work productively in the entire section of the day which follows. I suppose exercise more gently, or later in the day. Never been much into night exercise though.
buraksarica 13y ago
does "exercise" means physical? running etc?
- chmike 13y ago
  yes. This has a well known positive effect on mood, psychic energy and morale. Of course one should not over do it. As anything, in excess it can harm.
thaumasiotes 13y ago
> Get a 9 to 5 six figure job. > Next, live like a pauper, saving 60-70+% of that income. I had a job in San Francisco with a baseline salary of $90k and total cashlike compensation (stocks / annual bonus) raising it just over $100k. Low end, but that's six figures. Largest single item on my budget: taxes, at roughly 35% of my pay. Saving 70% of my nominal "income" would have been grossly illegal.
- Kurtz79 13y ago
  He probably meant 60/70% of that income after taxes. Still, it's kind of hard. Usually places with six figures jobs tend to have high rents. I'm nowhere near that figure, and more than a fourth of my monthly net income goes towards paying the rent.
Cthulhu_ 13y ago
A six-figure job is shooting a bit high (although tbph I have no clue what the average wage is in the Valley or wherever your point of reference comes from), but besides that, this is pretty much what I was going to say. A stable life and supporting yourself, your mental status and your family or whatever is, imho, more important than trying to live some fairy tale where you build a chat app and get bought out by Facebook. The startup success stories are all basically lottery winners, probably with similar odds.
davedx 13y ago
> As far as the idea, go for something as boring as possible. Preferably something that someone else is already paying money for but that the incumbent product is shitty or lacking in some major way. Fix it or make it signficantly cheaper. Business is just a wrapper around value. I made something boring: https://invoicerunner.com https://invoicerunner.com Nobody wants to use it because most people make boring things. The market of boring things is saturated in most cases. I feel like I'm back at square 1 personally. Building a successful business is hard. You don't just "build it and they will come". There is no one-line answer to success.
- HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
  Nobody's buying it because you're not marketing it. This "Start managing your invoices today. Take the stress out of tracking what's due, when, and to who" should be at the top of the page. The photo of a woman at a computer does absolutely nothing to explain what you're selling. It was pure curiosity that made me page down enough to figure out what you were selling. Most people who come across the page after googling "invoice management" or the like will just hit the back button. Typing fast, gotta leave, don't mean to be rude, but that's my feedback.
  - davedx 13y ago
    Thanks for the feedback! It's appreciated. I'm going to remove the woman with the iPad.
- avenger123 13y ago
  How many clients do you have? Get out there and spend time with the companies that might want your product. Work with them to add whatever extra features are needed to make it really worthwhile. Toyota can build the best Corolla but they still need to spend millions every year marketing it so it sells.
  - davedx 13y ago
    None. I had one potential client who I used to build the product, but they decided they need a custom in-house solution that also lets them send invoices as well as managing payables. I've approached several and also chased some leads from my network but had no luck, nobody has even given me feedback. I should work harder on getting it out there for sure. One challenge is that I think (yes, it's an untested assumption) my customers are probably more retail focused, which means doing some legwork to actually make contact (i.e. offline), something I haven't got time for at the moment. Any suggestions there would be welcome!
bulutcy 13y ago
+1 for this. But the bottom line is that; You will be sooo bored in your daily job so you will end up with incredible ideas that you cannot think about with just brainstorming. It is simple fact. I remember when I was in collage, a night before exam, I was creating lots of ides since studying exam is so boring. So work life is similar. If your daily job becomes not satisfactory for you, your brain will sense the emptiness inside and automatically come up with ideas, about work or something else. The caveat is, this is a way of releasing the vision inside you. If you have no vision in deeps of your brain, it is still not bad at all since you will most probably be in a better station. Just remember, only small amount of people believe they got the success that they deserve. Go for big, but not underestimate small, short time happiness.
avenger123 13y ago
This is great advice and I would say how most companies get started. It's hard to realize that we're our own little techno bubble when we read HN and about start-up's all the time. The fact is that most of the software companies that start, that are actually profitable and make money (not hundreds of millions or possibly millions) but enough are just not sexy enough in either their business model or their story to make it on HN or other blogs. Frankly, I think these companies are too busy running their business to get caught up in all of it.
thomaspientka 13y ago
don't know if you thought deeply when writing your last line. did you ever consider to read some marx?
hpandya 13y ago
Very well said, Rules of startup: 1. One should not quit his/her job until you have been funded very well. Once you get funded it means your idea is credible and fund will help you survive. 2. Never spend a penny from your personal savings. Because it's a slippery slope. Today you took $5000 from your savings, tomorrow you will do more. 3. Fail Fast and move on. Quickly build a prototype and showcase your ideas to your customers, have them on board with minimal viable product. 4. Don't spend your resources and time on things which people are not planning on using. Build based on what your customers wants and they are willing to pay you for it. 5. Make daily goals which is toward a main goal.. we have wasted so much time drifting in wrong direction. Keep your goal steady and only focus on that, nothing else. 6. Get some help, You cant do everything on your own.. get co-founders, try them out for 3 weeks before having them on board. 7. Be honest to yourself and communicate very well with your co founders and team mates.

cyphunk 13y ago

sound advice but may not fit if the OP was being driven by something other than making money. Also, some people have been doing the side project route for long enough to feel it is not working and they need to devote more time. i applaud the OP for pushing themselves but also agree that a well paying job is an option they may consider. Better yet, just variate between them. Spend a couple years trying to find collaborators and push projects, then a couple moving slow and steady on the side.

emmelaich 13y ago
That's ok, there's a whole spectrum of boring/interesting, well-paid/not so well-paid jobs. pyrrhotech's advice is exactly the one I was going to give. Work on some side project at the same time. And you know what? You might even like it, gain some skills and friends at work which will put in get stead for the rest of your life. The genius artist in an attic is a seductive myth.

cko 13y ago

I agree with this, probably because it fits my situation so well. I work a mind numbing pharmacist job, save 85% of my income and am working in side projects. One project is medical software because everything out there is currently very shitty. The savings are invested cash flowing securities. In five years you will have built up decent cash reserves. Now, you won't necessarily be living like a pauper. Just stop buying stupid shit and buy bare necessities.

radnam 13y ago
Hey CKO, Can you share what you are doing? Also I might have few pharma related questions for you.

blrgeek 13y ago

Exactly this. If you do not have a problem or product you are passionate about, then just work for someone else who is able to generate much better value out of your time. Read earlyretirementextreme or mrmoneymustache to see how you can get out of the rat race as fast as possible, and get back into doing startups (if that's what is exciting to you)

noel82 13y ago
Perfectly agree with that. And that's exactly what I'm doing so far: working for someone could be useful for improve yourself not only in what you'd like to do: side projects will benefit from this, believe me. I noticed improvements event in terms of analysis of problem solving.

vonseel 13y ago

Up-vote this, 1000x. Exercise changed my life, not long ago. :)

rehack 13y ago
Truly, exercise for Entrepreneurs can't be recommended enough. Before starting my Startup journey in 2006 I was 82-83 kgs (at around 6 feet, its sort of Okay). Went to 88 kgs, and felt bad in 2009. At present I am 80 kgs and feel much better. My routine: Runing: 7 kms on Tuesday and Thursday. 10 kms on Saturday. Strength: Just body weight - push ups and pull ups and crunches - on Monday and Friday Sprint runs: on Wednesday followed by some strength. Overall time spend is about 1.5 hours each day (because I don't hurry, and a relaxed stretching session after running) edit: format

hisyam 13y ago

What about us who live in developing nations and get paid less than USD1000 per month working as a dev? Saving money is hard over here.

jkaljundi 13y ago
In many developing nations you can save a lot even from a $1k salary. If not, dedicate some time to freelancing, either locally or via elance/odesk. Shoot let's say for $40k per hour and do 2-3 hours per evening of that, plus some time on weekends. 20 hours = $400 per week, $1600 per month additional. Do that for a year and you will have money to live on saved funds for 1,5 years.
- dous 13y ago
  Depending on which country you live in, taxes can be a real pain and will only leave you with a small bit of your salary. Not to mention transportation could eat up a lot your otherwise "free time" in the evenings. :( I do agree that freelancing would definitely give some nice extra income but only if you're disciplined enough to find time for it.
CmonDev 13y ago
Typically devs earn way more than national average in developing nations though? At least in none-EU Eastern Europe.
orkoden 13y ago
Go and work in a developed nation for a couple of years?
- jtheory 13y ago
  This is easier said than done. Most developed nations have all kinds of barriers and quotas in place to make it difficult for aliens to fill jobs that might otherwise be filled by citizens. Sometimes the right connections, company sponsorship, etc. can get you in; but if you're imagining just flying to the UK or wherever and getting a job, that's not possible. Even if a company there wants to hire you and is willing to jump through legal hoops it still may not be possible.

greenyoda 13y ago

The job won't necessarily even be boring. It's possible that you'll find a job working with smart people that you can learn useful things from.

adrianhoward 13y ago
Indeed. Every place I've worked - small or large - has been fun in one way or another, made me some friends, and taught me things I didn't know going in. I even made a few neat things that made people's lives better along the way. Yeah - I run my own company now. Because it gives me some other things that I value. But the idea that a normal job is always a terrible boring experience really does depend on the job. Not every employer on the planet is an asshat. Working for other people can be fun.

sitkack 13y ago

Don't work on the side project. Do _nothing_ .... go live life. Build skills, think, create, but don't work on an exit, how Christian.

mercule 13y ago
Sounds like he is building skills, thinking, and living life to me. He is failing at his current endeavor, but that is fine. Failure is good, builds character.
- sitkack 13y ago
  Failure is excellent, wish I failed in bigger ways as a child, it gets more expensive as you age. Continuing to work on side projects is a still a sure way to burnout. Side projects of pure personal enrichment (exercise, art, etc) are what repower a person for greatness.
  - CmonDev 13y ago
    I am glad people like Wozniak chose to work on side projects.
    - madmadjo 13y ago
      Heh... +1 for this one.
    - sitkack 13y ago
      We are discussing side projects in the context of taking a 9-5 job because of constant startup burnout from grinding. I am not arguing against side projects. Your comment was a cheap shot, offtopic strawman, who is going to disagree with your statement? No one.

pawelkomarnicki 13y ago

You mister should write a book on how to be sane — I see many, many (actually everyone I know) ambitious people being wrecked by this "startup bullshit", believing they have to slave off, skip everything in life, because "success" ;)

Taurenking 13y ago
Only to find themselves empty-handend

shtolcers 13y ago

This advice is true gold! 100% agree with it.

pattle 13y ago

Agree with all of this but a "six figure job". I work in a developed nation and I'm not even close to that!

kelnos 13y ago
Depends on where you live, I guess. I imagine you could get yourself a 5-figure tech job and still save a lot if you live in a place where the cost of living is lower than somewhere like Silicon Valley.

Myrmornis 13y ago

Sadly, as I've got older, I've found that exercise tires me out so that I can not work productively in the entire section of the day which follows. I suppose exercise more gently, or later in the day. Never been much into night exercise though.

buraksarica 13y ago

does "exercise" means physical? running etc?

chmike 13y ago
yes. This has a well known positive effect on mood, psychic energy and morale. Of course one should not over do it. As anything, in excess it can harm.

thaumasiotes 13y ago

> Get a 9 to 5 six figure job. > Next, live like a pauper, saving 60-70+% of that income. I had a job in San Francisco with a baseline salary of $90k and total cashlike compensation (stocks / annual bonus) raising it just over $100k. Low end, but that's six figures. Largest single item on my budget: taxes, at roughly 35% of my pay. Saving 70% of my nominal "income" would have been grossly illegal.

Kurtz79 13y ago
He probably meant 60/70% of that income after taxes. Still, it's kind of hard. Usually places with six figures jobs tend to have high rents. I'm nowhere near that figure, and more than a fourth of my monthly net income goes towards paying the rent.

Cthulhu_ 13y ago

A six-figure job is shooting a bit high (although tbph I have no clue what the average wage is in the Valley or wherever your point of reference comes from), but besides that, this is pretty much what I was going to say. A stable life and supporting yourself, your mental status and your family or whatever is, imho, more important than trying to live some fairy tale where you build a chat app and get bought out by Facebook. The startup success stories are all basically lottery winners, probably with similar odds.

davedx 13y ago

> As far as the idea, go for something as boring as possible. Preferably something that someone else is already paying money for but that the incumbent product is shitty or lacking in some major way. Fix it or make it signficantly cheaper. Business is just a wrapper around value. I made something boring: https://invoicerunner.com https://invoicerunner.com Nobody wants to use it because most people make boring things. The market of boring things is saturated in most cases. I feel like I'm back at square 1 personally. Building a successful business is hard. You don't just "build it and they will come". There is no one-line answer to success.

HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
Nobody's buying it because you're not marketing it. This "Start managing your invoices today. Take the stress out of tracking what's due, when, and to who" should be at the top of the page. The photo of a woman at a computer does absolutely nothing to explain what you're selling. It was pure curiosity that made me page down enough to figure out what you were selling. Most people who come across the page after googling "invoice management" or the like will just hit the back button. Typing fast, gotta leave, don't mean to be rude, but that's my feedback.
- davedx 13y ago
  Thanks for the feedback! It's appreciated. I'm going to remove the woman with the iPad.
avenger123 13y ago
How many clients do you have? Get out there and spend time with the companies that might want your product. Work with them to add whatever extra features are needed to make it really worthwhile. Toyota can build the best Corolla but they still need to spend millions every year marketing it so it sells.
- davedx 13y ago
  None. I had one potential client who I used to build the product, but they decided they need a custom in-house solution that also lets them send invoices as well as managing payables. I've approached several and also chased some leads from my network but had no luck, nobody has even given me feedback. I should work harder on getting it out there for sure. One challenge is that I think (yes, it's an untested assumption) my customers are probably more retail focused, which means doing some legwork to actually make contact (i.e. offline), something I haven't got time for at the moment. Any suggestions there would be welcome!

bulutcy 13y ago

+1 for this. But the bottom line is that; You will be sooo bored in your daily job so you will end up with incredible ideas that you cannot think about with just brainstorming. It is simple fact. I remember when I was in collage, a night before exam, I was creating lots of ides since studying exam is so boring. So work life is similar. If your daily job becomes not satisfactory for you, your brain will sense the emptiness inside and automatically come up with ideas, about work or something else. The caveat is, this is a way of releasing the vision inside you. If you have no vision in deeps of your brain, it is still not bad at all since you will most probably be in a better station. Just remember, only small amount of people believe they got the success that they deserve. Go for big, but not underestimate small, short time happiness.

avenger123 13y ago

This is great advice and I would say how most companies get started. It's hard to realize that we're our own little techno bubble when we read HN and about start-up's all the time. The fact is that most of the software companies that start, that are actually profitable and make money (not hundreds of millions or possibly millions) but enough are just not sexy enough in either their business model or their story to make it on HN or other blogs. Frankly, I think these companies are too busy running their business to get caught up in all of it.

thomaspientka 13y ago

don't know if you thought deeply when writing your last line. did you ever consider to read some marx?

hpandya 13y ago

Very well said, Rules of startup: 1. One should not quit his/her job until you have been funded very well. Once you get funded it means your idea is credible and fund will help you survive. 2. Never spend a penny from your personal savings. Because it's a slippery slope. Today you took $5000 from your savings, tomorrow you will do more. 3. Fail Fast and move on. Quickly build a prototype and showcase your ideas to your customers, have them on board with minimal viable product. 4. Don't spend your resources and time on things which people are not planning on using. Build based on what your customers wants and they are willing to pay you for it. 5. Make daily goals which is toward a main goal.. we have wasted so much time drifting in wrong direction. Keep your goal steady and only focus on that, nothing else. 6. Get some help, You cant do everything on your own.. get co-founders, try them out for 3 weeks before having them on board. 7. Be honest to yourself and communicate very well with your co founders and team mates.