8 ms·

Why don't you read a fucking ADHD support forum and wonder whether the suffering caused by poor executive functioning/nervous system disorder is real? Why didn

Why don't you read a fucking ADHD support forum and wonder whether the suffering caused by poor executive functioning/nervous system disorder is real? Why didn't they mention how many more times you are likely to die in a vehicular accident than non-adhd users? http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=10&q=adhd&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=10&q=adhd&hl=en&as_s... Google scholar for ADHD, why don't you realize that these ADHD articles are more akin to anti-vaccination articles?

jonah 13y ago
Why don't we try to get to the root causes of these "behavioral issues" instead of treating the symptoms.
- gizmo686 13y ago
  Isn't that what ADHD medication tries to do. If the root cause is a chemical imbalance, then treating is as a behavioural problem is only treating the symptoms.
  - gress 13y ago
    There is no valid support for the chemical imbalance theory of mental illness. The reasoning is circular - "if chemicals reduce the symptoms, a chemical imbalance must have been the cause" Edit: seriously downvotes? This isn't news: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_imbalance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_imbalance
    - dalke 13y ago
      Or read http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/03/psychiatry-admits-wrong-big-ways-can-change-chat-robert-whitaker/ http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/03/psychiatry-admits-wrong-... : > BL: In Anatomy of an Epidemic, you also discussed the pseudoscience behind the “chemical imbalance” theories of mental illness—theories that made it easy to sell psychiatric drugs. In the last few years, I’ve noticed establishment psychiatry figures doing some major backpedaling on these chemical imbalance theories. For example, Ronald Pies, editor-in-chief emeritus of the Psychiatric Times stated in 2011, “In truth, the ‘chemical imbalance’ notion was always a kind of urban legend—never a theory seriously propounded by well-informed psychiatrists.” ... > RW: In a sense, Ronald Pies is right. Those psychiatrists who were “well informed” about investigations into the chemical imbalance theory of mental disorders knew it hadn’t really panned out, with such findings dating back to the late 1970s and early 1980s. But why then did we as a society come to believe that mental disorders were due to chemical imbalances, which were then fixed by the drugs? ... RW then goes on to list a couple of likely reasons.
  - jonah 13y ago
    I'll bite. Where does the imbalance come from? It doesn't come from not taking your medications.
com2kid 13y ago
Thank you. As I've stated before, either ADHD is real, or psychologists have found the world's best predictive test for auto accidents. People with untreated ADHD have 3x the likelihood of being in an auto accident. 56% rate of substance abuse. Think about that for a moment. 56%. Holy shit. These are the people who instead of getting help, were told that they are "lazy" and "needed to get up off their asses." Except that advice didn't work, what it does lead to is depression and dependency issues. Oh then there is the fact that there are large structural brain differences. I won't disagree that ADHD is over-diagnosed at times. I am horrified with how easily some people get an ADHD diagnosis, your general MD should not be making that call. There are multitudes of proper psychological tests for ADHD that should be chosen from, a 30 minute patient interview should not be the sole determining factor.
- gress 13y ago
  Perhaps the tendency to call people "lazy" and "need to get up off your ass", is a personality disorder that should be treated with strong medication.
- legutierr 13y ago
  > Oh then there is the fact that there are large structural brain differences. Are these structural differences used in diagnosis?
  - com2kid 13y ago
    > Are these structural differences used in diagnosis? Unfortunately testing costs money, I've rarely to never heard of it being used, but my sole experience is in helping people on ADHD support forums.
    - dalke 13y ago
      When you say it is a "fact that there are large structural brain differences", which differences did you mean? I may be focusing on the wrong thing. What I've found (brain size) doesn't have a clear enough difference to be used as part of diagnosis. For example, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2859218/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2859218/ notes that head circumference and cross-sectional MRI measurements of brain size show that children diagnosed with autism have (on average) a larger brain size. However, looking at the charts (for a head circumference chart, see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3869044/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3869044/ ), while the data may be statistically significant, there's no clear separation between those diagnosed with autism and those with no indication of autism. Many of those with autism have a size smaller than the average of those without, and many of those without autism have a size larger than those with. This means that head size or simple cross-sectional MRIs can't be used as a reliable diagnostic test. Which structural differences where you meaning?
DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
Your response doesn't actually address the article, which acknowledges that ADHD is a real condition, but suggests that fewer than 1 in 5 boys have it, and that a large number of misdiagnosed cases is bad, considering that they're given serious drugs because of it. In fact, the only number it suggests as being inaccurate (based on an old study) is 25% of cases - that 1 in 4 cases is misdiagnosed. However, given the number of total cases, that means something like 5% of boys are being given serious drugs for potentially no reason. I think that deserves serious consideration, and not your knee-jerk, strawman response.
- gress 13y ago
  Also it's worth pointing out that if 1 in 5 boys have it, it's not a disorder. It's part of the normal range.
  - epx 13y ago
    Chebychev inequality!
  - joeyo 13y ago
    I'm not sure if it's that black and white. Roughly 25% of deaths in the US are due to heart disease. Should we not intervene because heart disease is part of the normal range?
    - gress 13y ago
      You're affirming the consequent.
    - amirmc 13y ago
      I agree that it's probably not that black and white but a comparison with heart disease isn't a fair one. The grandparent post does make a point. If such a large proportion of the population has a 'condition' is it really a condition or perhaps just how we (as a species) are? Especially in the case of something that's psychiatric/psychological. For example, I've heard estimates that around 10% of the population is homosexual and for many years people wanted to 'fix' them. Around 10%-12% of people are left-handed and (I believe) that historically this was also something that people tried to 'fix'. I doubt many of us think twice about these anymore. To a sibling comment that suggested what if 1 in 5 boys were born deaf, I'd say that the world would be a vastly different place. So different that we may not even entertain such a question. If, instead, 1/5th of boys were beginning to be born deaf, there would be a medical emergency. Unfortunately, in the case of things like ADHD it's difficult to know if we've always been this way or if there's really been a change.
sheepmullet 13y ago
Nobody is saying that ADHD is not a real condition. The article is suggesting a lot of American boys are diagnosed with ADHD when they don't in fact have it. Imagine if 30% of people undergoing chemo for cancer treatment had never even had cancer. I'd like to see what the rates are compared to other western countries. If its 5% in Canada and 20% in the US it suggests something is wrong
im_a_lawyer 13y ago
no one here is saying that ADHD condition is not real.. It's just that some people like me have a problem with the way they decide to treat it. Pretending that this is all "genetics" written in stone and the only way to not go crazy and end up a poor underachiever in jail is by taking these expensive pills and call it "treatment". Your body has absolutely zero need for pharmaceuticals. Drugs are only masking the problem up and as soon as you stop taking it, all your symptoms will come back. How do you people not fucking get it? Why not get to the root cause of this condition instead of taking an easy way out?

jonah 13y ago

Why don't we try to get to the root causes of these "behavioral issues" instead of treating the symptoms.

gizmo686 13y ago
Isn't that what ADHD medication tries to do. If the root cause is a chemical imbalance, then treating is as a behavioural problem is only treating the symptoms.
- gress 13y ago
  There is no valid support for the chemical imbalance theory of mental illness. The reasoning is circular - "if chemicals reduce the symptoms, a chemical imbalance must have been the cause" Edit: seriously downvotes? This isn't news: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_imbalance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_imbalance
  - dalke 13y ago
    Or read http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/03/psychiatry-admits-wrong-big-ways-can-change-chat-robert-whitaker/ http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/03/psychiatry-admits-wrong-... : > BL: In Anatomy of an Epidemic, you also discussed the pseudoscience behind the “chemical imbalance” theories of mental illness—theories that made it easy to sell psychiatric drugs. In the last few years, I’ve noticed establishment psychiatry figures doing some major backpedaling on these chemical imbalance theories. For example, Ronald Pies, editor-in-chief emeritus of the Psychiatric Times stated in 2011, “In truth, the ‘chemical imbalance’ notion was always a kind of urban legend—never a theory seriously propounded by well-informed psychiatrists.” ... > RW: In a sense, Ronald Pies is right. Those psychiatrists who were “well informed” about investigations into the chemical imbalance theory of mental disorders knew it hadn’t really panned out, with such findings dating back to the late 1970s and early 1980s. But why then did we as a society come to believe that mental disorders were due to chemical imbalances, which were then fixed by the drugs? ... RW then goes on to list a couple of likely reasons.
- jonah 13y ago
  I'll bite. Where does the imbalance come from? It doesn't come from not taking your medications.

com2kid 13y ago

Thank you. As I've stated before, either ADHD is real, or psychologists have found the world's best predictive test for auto accidents. People with untreated ADHD have 3x the likelihood of being in an auto accident. 56% rate of substance abuse. Think about that for a moment. 56%. Holy shit. These are the people who instead of getting help, were told that they are "lazy" and "needed to get up off their asses." Except that advice didn't work, what it does lead to is depression and dependency issues. Oh then there is the fact that there are large structural brain differences. I won't disagree that ADHD is over-diagnosed at times. I am horrified with how easily some people get an ADHD diagnosis, your general MD should not be making that call. There are multitudes of proper psychological tests for ADHD that should be chosen from, a 30 minute patient interview should not be the sole determining factor.

gress 13y ago
Perhaps the tendency to call people "lazy" and "need to get up off your ass", is a personality disorder that should be treated with strong medication.
legutierr 13y ago
> Oh then there is the fact that there are large structural brain differences. Are these structural differences used in diagnosis?
- com2kid 13y ago
  > Are these structural differences used in diagnosis? Unfortunately testing costs money, I've rarely to never heard of it being used, but my sole experience is in helping people on ADHD support forums.
  - dalke 13y ago
    When you say it is a "fact that there are large structural brain differences", which differences did you mean? I may be focusing on the wrong thing. What I've found (brain size) doesn't have a clear enough difference to be used as part of diagnosis. For example, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2859218/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2859218/ notes that head circumference and cross-sectional MRI measurements of brain size show that children diagnosed with autism have (on average) a larger brain size. However, looking at the charts (for a head circumference chart, see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3869044/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3869044/ ), while the data may be statistically significant, there's no clear separation between those diagnosed with autism and those with no indication of autism. Many of those with autism have a size smaller than the average of those without, and many of those without autism have a size larger than those with. This means that head size or simple cross-sectional MRIs can't be used as a reliable diagnostic test. Which structural differences where you meaning?

DerpDerpDerp 13y ago

Your response doesn't actually address the article, which acknowledges that ADHD is a real condition, but suggests that fewer than 1 in 5 boys have it, and that a large number of misdiagnosed cases is bad, considering that they're given serious drugs because of it. In fact, the only number it suggests as being inaccurate (based on an old study) is 25% of cases - that 1 in 4 cases is misdiagnosed. However, given the number of total cases, that means something like 5% of boys are being given serious drugs for potentially no reason. I think that deserves serious consideration, and not your knee-jerk, strawman response.

gress 13y ago
Also it's worth pointing out that if 1 in 5 boys have it, it's not a disorder. It's part of the normal range.
- epx 13y ago
  Chebychev inequality!
- joeyo 13y ago
  I'm not sure if it's that black and white. Roughly 25% of deaths in the US are due to heart disease. Should we not intervene because heart disease is part of the normal range?
  - gress 13y ago
    You're affirming the consequent.
  - amirmc 13y ago
    I agree that it's probably not that black and white but a comparison with heart disease isn't a fair one. The grandparent post does make a point. If such a large proportion of the population has a 'condition' is it really a condition or perhaps just how we (as a species) are? Especially in the case of something that's psychiatric/psychological. For example, I've heard estimates that around 10% of the population is homosexual and for many years people wanted to 'fix' them. Around 10%-12% of people are left-handed and (I believe) that historically this was also something that people tried to 'fix'. I doubt many of us think twice about these anymore. To a sibling comment that suggested what if 1 in 5 boys were born deaf, I'd say that the world would be a vastly different place. So different that we may not even entertain such a question. If, instead, 1/5th of boys were beginning to be born deaf, there would be a medical emergency. Unfortunately, in the case of things like ADHD it's difficult to know if we've always been this way or if there's really been a change.

sheepmullet 13y ago

Nobody is saying that ADHD is not a real condition. The article is suggesting a lot of American boys are diagnosed with ADHD when they don't in fact have it. Imagine if 30% of people undergoing chemo for cancer treatment had never even had cancer. I'd like to see what the rates are compared to other western countries. If its 5% in Canada and 20% in the US it suggests something is wrong

im_a_lawyer 13y ago

no one here is saying that ADHD condition is not real.. It's just that some people like me have a problem with the way they decide to treat it. Pretending that this is all "genetics" written in stone and the only way to not go crazy and end up a poor underachiever in jail is by taking these expensive pills and call it "treatment". Your body has absolutely zero need for pharmaceuticals. Drugs are only masking the problem up and as soon as you stop taking it, all your symptoms will come back. How do you people not fucking get it? Why not get to the root cause of this condition instead of taking an easy way out?