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Credit Card payments in person can be great - swipe and go, why not? Online, it's 23 digits that you don't know, and then 3-23 more fields (shipping address, b

Credit Card payments in person can be great - swipe and go, why not? Online, it's 23 digits that you don't know, and then 3-23 more fields (shipping address, billing address, name, email, etc. etc.) That sucks. Even at it's best in the Stripe Checkout model, it's less than ideal and extremely unsafe - it's so unsafe that American Express is RUNNING COMMERCIALS ADVERTISING HOW UNSAFE THEIR PROCESS IS! For your convenience, let's 2.9% and $0.30 of every transaction. That's a huge drain on the margin for a business of any size, but especially someone with checkout size about 10-50 bucks and margins of 10-40%. So to summarize - online it's bad for consumers, bad for businesses, but it's the only way right now because hell if I know my account and routing number, and if I do the business still needs 3 days to make sure I own that account. That's the problem we've solved (I believe) but it's in its nascent stages. Bitcoin could potentially lend a lot of relief there too, which is why this is so exciting.

mikeash 13y ago
I let my password manager handle the multiple fields required, although it's still not the best solution ever. What are these commercials that AmEx is running? I assume they're presenting it as "convenient" rather than "unsafe" but it's obvious enough if you know what's going on?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
tomasien 13y ago
Can't respond to individual comments - chargeback protection is NOT a credit-card thing - it's a consumer protection called Regulation E that all payment processors must have. We have it for ACH for example.
- srdev 13y ago
  That seems to be at odds with how Bitcoin works with the handful of large retailers that accept it. Reading online experiences, there are a subset where they order something at Overstock/Tiger Direct, the order does not go through, but the Bitcoins are sent, and they are told to complain to Coinbase. The alternative is I spend 5 minutes on the phone with a third party to issue a chargeback. ACH are also reversible by a third party (the bank). Is my understanding flawed? How does a chargeback work when a third party does not exist and the protocol does not allow chargebacks. Edit: Note that the merchant itself doing a refund is not equivalent. The important feature of a chargeback is that its a third party issuing it.
- gamblor956 13y ago
  Regulation E only applies to specified forms of electronic funds transfer. For example, it would not apply to prepaid cards. It is not clear that Regulation E would apply to Bitcoin transactions, and so far most retailers and BTC payment processors have taken the stance that Regulation E does not apply to BTC transactions.
  - tomasien 13y ago
    Solid point. Sometimes I forget if I'm talking about Knox or BTC - either way, Reg E is NOT a CC thing
srdev 13y ago
> Online, it's 23 digits that you don't know, and then 3-23 more fields (shipping address, billing address, name, email, etc. etc.) That sucks. Shipping address, name, and email are necessary even if you use bitcoin. Billing address is usually the same as shipping address. That leaves the CC number, in which case the equivalent is your bitcoin address. So there's no real win here. And if you're using a regular online shop, then they probably have all these details saved. With Amazon, I can buy things with one click. With Newegg and other stores that I use regularly, its two. I haven't seen any bitcoin experience that matches that. Reading up on "experiences" people have with Overstock and Tiger Direct, it all seems very roundabout and inconvenient. And then you're hit with shit like no refunds to top it off. > Even at it's best in the Stripe Checkout model, it's less than ideal and extremely unsafe - it's so unsafe that American Express is RUNNING COMMERCIALS ADVERTISING HOW UNSAFE THEIR PROCESS IS! Pull is less safe than push, yes. Bitcoin is undoubtedly more secure than giving your CC number. But pull is more convenient for consumers, as I outlined above. There's work-arounds for credit cards, such as virtual card numbers, but they haven't gained broader consumer penetration for the exact reason that they're inconvenient. In practice, the "unsafe but you can get the charges reversed" system works well enough that promoting a new system based on the fact that its safer isn't really enough. > For your convenience, let's 2.9% and $0.30 of every transaction. That's a huge drain on the margin for a business of any size, but especially someone with checkout size about 10-50 bucks and margins of 10-40%. Not every business charges 2.9%. Many get rates as low as 1% (this is what we charged large corporations, if I remember correctly). With bitcoin, you're going to get hit with transaction fees, exchange fees, and exchange spread. For small shops, its likely that will come out less than the CC fees, but for bigger stores its questionable. Edit: Note that I hope these problems will be solved. Ideally, we see the Bitcoin protocol and ecosystem mature such that it is as convenient as a credit card and safer to boot.
- evv 13y ago
  > Shipping address, name, and email are necessary even if you use bitcoin. Billing address is usually the same as shipping address. That leaves the CC number, in which case the equivalent is your bitcoin address. Maybe I'm confused. Why is the address, name and email necessary for BTC payments? Is it a stripe requirement? And, as you probably know, a bitcoin address is WAY more secure than a CC#. They are nowhere near "equivalent"
Guvante 13y ago
Bitcoin is equivalent to cash, of course businesses want a cash equivalent as their method of online payment. However many consumers have gotten used to the protections credit cards offer.
- pbreit 13y ago
  No it's not. Since businesses have to convert most or all of it to real cash and it can take hours or days for this process to complete, there would be padding built in to account for the volatility.

mikeash 13y ago

I let my password manager handle the multiple fields required, although it's still not the best solution ever. What are these commercials that AmEx is running? I assume they're presenting it as "convenient" rather than "unsafe" but it's obvious enough if you know what's going on?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

tomasien 13y ago

Can't respond to individual comments - chargeback protection is NOT a credit-card thing - it's a consumer protection called Regulation E that all payment processors must have. We have it for ACH for example.

srdev 13y ago
That seems to be at odds with how Bitcoin works with the handful of large retailers that accept it. Reading online experiences, there are a subset where they order something at Overstock/Tiger Direct, the order does not go through, but the Bitcoins are sent, and they are told to complain to Coinbase. The alternative is I spend 5 minutes on the phone with a third party to issue a chargeback. ACH are also reversible by a third party (the bank). Is my understanding flawed? How does a chargeback work when a third party does not exist and the protocol does not allow chargebacks. Edit: Note that the merchant itself doing a refund is not equivalent. The important feature of a chargeback is that its a third party issuing it.
gamblor956 13y ago
Regulation E only applies to specified forms of electronic funds transfer. For example, it would not apply to prepaid cards. It is not clear that Regulation E would apply to Bitcoin transactions, and so far most retailers and BTC payment processors have taken the stance that Regulation E does not apply to BTC transactions.
- tomasien 13y ago
  Solid point. Sometimes I forget if I'm talking about Knox or BTC - either way, Reg E is NOT a CC thing

srdev 13y ago

> Online, it's 23 digits that you don't know, and then 3-23 more fields (shipping address, billing address, name, email, etc. etc.) That sucks. Shipping address, name, and email are necessary even if you use bitcoin. Billing address is usually the same as shipping address. That leaves the CC number, in which case the equivalent is your bitcoin address. So there's no real win here. And if you're using a regular online shop, then they probably have all these details saved. With Amazon, I can buy things with one click. With Newegg and other stores that I use regularly, its two. I haven't seen any bitcoin experience that matches that. Reading up on "experiences" people have with Overstock and Tiger Direct, it all seems very roundabout and inconvenient. And then you're hit with shit like no refunds to top it off. > Even at it's best in the Stripe Checkout model, it's less than ideal and extremely unsafe - it's so unsafe that American Express is RUNNING COMMERCIALS ADVERTISING HOW UNSAFE THEIR PROCESS IS! Pull is less safe than push, yes. Bitcoin is undoubtedly more secure than giving your CC number. But pull is more convenient for consumers, as I outlined above. There's work-arounds for credit cards, such as virtual card numbers, but they haven't gained broader consumer penetration for the exact reason that they're inconvenient. In practice, the "unsafe but you can get the charges reversed" system works well enough that promoting a new system based on the fact that its safer isn't really enough. > For your convenience, let's 2.9% and $0.30 of every transaction. That's a huge drain on the margin for a business of any size, but especially someone with checkout size about 10-50 bucks and margins of 10-40%. Not every business charges 2.9%. Many get rates as low as 1% (this is what we charged large corporations, if I remember correctly). With bitcoin, you're going to get hit with transaction fees, exchange fees, and exchange spread. For small shops, its likely that will come out less than the CC fees, but for bigger stores its questionable. Edit: Note that I hope these problems will be solved. Ideally, we see the Bitcoin protocol and ecosystem mature such that it is as convenient as a credit card and safer to boot.

evv 13y ago
> Shipping address, name, and email are necessary even if you use bitcoin. Billing address is usually the same as shipping address. That leaves the CC number, in which case the equivalent is your bitcoin address. Maybe I'm confused. Why is the address, name and email necessary for BTC payments? Is it a stripe requirement? And, as you probably know, a bitcoin address is WAY more secure than a CC#. They are nowhere near "equivalent"

Guvante 13y ago

Bitcoin is equivalent to cash, of course businesses want a cash equivalent as their method of online payment. However many consumers have gotten used to the protections credit cards offer.

pbreit 13y ago
No it's not. Since businesses have to convert most or all of it to real cash and it can take hours or days for this process to complete, there would be padding built in to account for the volatility.