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Can you, JS People, please stop calling your apps "real time"? If you've ever written one true real time application, you would not be calling your web apps "rt

Can you, JS People, please stop calling your apps "real time"? If you've ever written one true real time application, you would not be calling your web apps "rt" (Action Stations, Action Stations - Downvoting imminent. Prepare for impact)

650REDHAIR 13y ago
Near real time --> "real time" for web apps. How would you implement "real" rt in JS?
- mariusz79 13y ago
  I wouldn't. And here is the problem JS folks are having.. Real Time does not mean "happening as fast as possible" but "deterministic". If I tell the process to turn something on and off every 1ms, the rt system will do everything in it's power to do it.
  - Joeboy 13y ago
    > Real Time does not mean "happening as fast as possible" That's not the meaning that's being used here. Here it means "events are shown at the time when they occur". Which is a very common meaning of the expression "real time".
    - rubiquity 13y ago
      No, the meaning used here (and to the OP's defense every JavaScript/WebSockets library uses this definition) is a persistent connection where events are pushed instead of pulled.
      - Joeboy 13y ago
        That is the mechanism by which events are shown at the time when they occur.
  - lgas 13y ago
    Well, that's not a meaningful distinction, because if I tell a javascript web app to turn something on and off every 1ms, the javascript web app will do everything in it's power to do it also. It just doesn't have much power to do it. The real distinction is that a RT system is designed through and through to have a lot of power to do it.
kasey_junk 13y ago
Seriously. Generally I don't get freaked out about the dynamic nature of language, but in a technical/computing context real time means something specific & web socket libraries aren't it.
- Kiro 13y ago
  What does it mean?
  - davidw 13y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing is pretty good. Think "stuff that controls your car" or some components of a mars rover, or some medical devices. It needs to respond within hard time limits or Bad Things can happen.
  - collyw 13y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing along the lines of: responses are guaranteed within a certain time
Joeboy 13y ago
I think the word just has two different meanings, like "hacker". It's kind of schizophrenic. Edit: Although I admit that I very much associate the "rt" suffix with the "runs in deterministic time" kind of realtime.
luch 13y ago
Agreed. An app which does not rely on RTOS/kernel can hardly qualify for "real-time".
ceejayoz 13y ago
Even Google doesn't care about this level of pedantry. Analytics has a "real-time" dashboard now. Like it or not, "gay" means "homosexual" as well as "happy", "hacker" means more than just people tinkering with electronics, etc. these days.
- lgieron 13y ago
  Well, people who do the actual real time systems (for mission-critical firmware, high-frequency trades etc.) certainly do care about it.
  - Joeboy 13y ago
    And people who work for Mattel probably take care to avoid abbreviating the word "barbecue".
  - kristiandupont 13y ago
    If they cared because there is a risk of misunderstanding, I could respect that. But nobody is going to confuse the two, ever, and coming with terminology is hard. Using "real time" in this case is, in my opinion, well chosen and much better than other recent terms like "responsive design".
    - lgieron 13y ago
      I for one got confused - I assumed the link is about real-time systems and not a web app (I'd be interested in reading about the former but not the latter).
  - ceejayoz 13y ago
    So? We're not talking about those systems. It's clear to everyone what "real-time" means in the context of webdev/JavaScript.
Kiro 13y ago
What's a real "real time" app then?
happyscrappy 13y ago
Engineers require precise language, so maybe we shouldn't be calling web devs engineers.
- ethanbond 13y ago
  You just said it. Most call themselves web devs to begin with. Not software engineers nor computer scientists. You also alluded to a division which justifies this usage: this is a project by web devs for web devs. Web devs might use different language than software engineers or whatnot. Meteor.js isn't a meteor, says the cosmologist.
collyw 13y ago
I am not sure what exactly they mean by "real time" in a JS context. Not what my previous understanding of it would be.
coderzach 13y ago
Can you, pedantic neckbeards, stop whining about people shortening "soft realtime" to "realtime."
- davidw 13y ago
  Bzzzt. Web "real time" isn't even soft real time, really, in the traditional sense. It mostly just means "web sockets" so that you're not polling the web server to get updates. And honestly that's a pretty nice development in web development, and something to celebrate. Just that it's not the same thing that a lot of us think of when we think "real time software".
RyanZAG 13y ago
There are tons of meanings for "real time". Just because you like one of the definitions doesn't mean the other definitions don't exist. eg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_data http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_data http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time for a list.
tlarkworthy 13y ago
embedded systems real time is impossible over the internet. So when talking about internet technology, you have to adjust the lexicon slightly. I have no problem with this. Are you suggesting internet applications are banned from ever using the term real time until they replace the routing architecture?? Its such a good term that I don't think the embedded engineers should get to monopolize it.
pessimizer 13y ago
"Real time" is the buzzword for "updates without clicking."

650REDHAIR 13y ago

Near real time --> "real time" for web apps. How would you implement "real" rt in JS?

mariusz79 13y ago
I wouldn't. And here is the problem JS folks are having.. Real Time does not mean "happening as fast as possible" but "deterministic". If I tell the process to turn something on and off every 1ms, the rt system will do everything in it's power to do it.
- Joeboy 13y ago
  > Real Time does not mean "happening as fast as possible" That's not the meaning that's being used here. Here it means "events are shown at the time when they occur". Which is a very common meaning of the expression "real time".
  - rubiquity 13y ago
    No, the meaning used here (and to the OP's defense every JavaScript/WebSockets library uses this definition) is a persistent connection where events are pushed instead of pulled.
    - Joeboy 13y ago
      That is the mechanism by which events are shown at the time when they occur.
- lgas 13y ago
  Well, that's not a meaningful distinction, because if I tell a javascript web app to turn something on and off every 1ms, the javascript web app will do everything in it's power to do it also. It just doesn't have much power to do it. The real distinction is that a RT system is designed through and through to have a lot of power to do it.

kasey_junk 13y ago

Seriously. Generally I don't get freaked out about the dynamic nature of language, but in a technical/computing context real time means something specific & web socket libraries aren't it.

Kiro 13y ago
What does it mean?
- davidw 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing is pretty good. Think "stuff that controls your car" or some components of a mars rover, or some medical devices. It needs to respond within hard time limits or Bad Things can happen.
- collyw 13y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing along the lines of: responses are guaranteed within a certain time

Joeboy 13y ago

I think the word just has two different meanings, like "hacker". It's kind of schizophrenic. Edit: Although I admit that I very much associate the "rt" suffix with the "runs in deterministic time" kind of realtime.

luch 13y ago

Agreed. An app which does not rely on RTOS/kernel can hardly qualify for "real-time".

ceejayoz 13y ago

Even Google doesn't care about this level of pedantry. Analytics has a "real-time" dashboard now. Like it or not, "gay" means "homosexual" as well as "happy", "hacker" means more than just people tinkering with electronics, etc. these days.

lgieron 13y ago
Well, people who do the actual real time systems (for mission-critical firmware, high-frequency trades etc.) certainly do care about it.
- Joeboy 13y ago
  And people who work for Mattel probably take care to avoid abbreviating the word "barbecue".
- kristiandupont 13y ago
  If they cared because there is a risk of misunderstanding, I could respect that. But nobody is going to confuse the two, ever, and coming with terminology is hard. Using "real time" in this case is, in my opinion, well chosen and much better than other recent terms like "responsive design".
  - lgieron 13y ago
    I for one got confused - I assumed the link is about real-time systems and not a web app (I'd be interested in reading about the former but not the latter).
- ceejayoz 13y ago
  So? We're not talking about those systems. It's clear to everyone what "real-time" means in the context of webdev/JavaScript.

Kiro 13y ago

What's a real "real time" app then?

happyscrappy 13y ago

Engineers require precise language, so maybe we shouldn't be calling web devs engineers.

ethanbond 13y ago
You just said it. Most call themselves web devs to begin with. Not software engineers nor computer scientists. You also alluded to a division which justifies this usage: this is a project by web devs for web devs. Web devs might use different language than software engineers or whatnot. Meteor.js isn't a meteor, says the cosmologist.

collyw 13y ago

I am not sure what exactly they mean by "real time" in a JS context. Not what my previous understanding of it would be.

coderzach 13y ago

Can you, pedantic neckbeards, stop whining about people shortening "soft realtime" to "realtime."

davidw 13y ago
Bzzzt. Web "real time" isn't even soft real time, really, in the traditional sense. It mostly just means "web sockets" so that you're not polling the web server to get updates. And honestly that's a pretty nice development in web development, and something to celebrate. Just that it's not the same thing that a lot of us think of when we think "real time software".

RyanZAG 13y ago

There are tons of meanings for "real time". Just because you like one of the definitions doesn't mean the other definitions don't exist. eg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_data http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_data http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time for a list.

tlarkworthy 13y ago

embedded systems real time is impossible over the internet. So when talking about internet technology, you have to adjust the lexicon slightly. I have no problem with this. Are you suggesting internet applications are banned from ever using the term real time until they replace the routing architecture?? Its such a good term that I don't think the embedded engineers should get to monopolize it.

pessimizer 13y ago

"Real time" is the buzzword for "updates without clicking."