6 ms·
KeyMe – Copy keys and solve lockouts
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- patio11 13y agoThat's always been as effective a safeguard as "Do Not Copy This File." This app doesn't meaningfully change the risks associated with that. Physical possession of a key for more than 5 seconds means you own the lock it is associated with, at will. (Or, these days, a photograph will work.) The Grand Old Order of Locksmiths likes to pretend there's a long tradition of professional norms which makes this impossible, and thus it is safe to give someone a key but treat their access to the lock as revocable, but that's mostly hokum. It's a shared secret between the key and the lock which happens to have a physical encoding. If somebody sees the encoding, the secret isn't a secret anymore. The mystique of the locksmith is that the encoding is more esoteric than "this is my password", but that's not actually a very strong security guarantee if you expose it to adversarial action. Relatedly, most locks can be defeated by a bright 8 year old with tools which cost less than $100. This is also one of the things which the Grand Old Order of Locksmiths would have you believe is totally unpossible, because that would require someone to have illegal possession of lockpicking tools and forbidden knowledge, like a) a can of compressed air and b) a 46-second Youtube video.
- upofadown 13y agoI guess the remaining question is if a member of the "Grand Old Order of Locksmiths" would normally generate a new key from an image of a key. The KeyMe people think they would if they were "following instructions we display on your phone". So it sounds like the process has been made simpler and is now being encouraged.
- mechanical_fish 13y agoThis is all true, but the Grand Old Order of Locksmiths hasn't evolved this line of patter for no reason. Many people of my acquaintance are terrified of the possibility of burglars, even though home intrusions are very rare. Boosting people's confidence meaningfully improves their lives, even if 50% of the confidence boost is pure placebo effect. And physical locks do accomplish some things. They often require aspiring thieves to choose between speed and subtlety: Kicking open a door is fast but loud, picking a deadbolt is quieter but consumes a bit of time, and obviously both are slower and more obvious than opening an unlocked door. Physical locks protect against "misunderstandings". If you pass through a locked door and you don't have a key, you'll have a hard time convincing a cop or a judge that you were just making a mistake, or that "I saw the door standing open and was trying to investigate." Similarly, the "do not copy this key" message is not intended to be binding on locksmiths. It's a tiny contract between the landlord and the tenant, so if the tenant makes fifty copies of the key and hands them out at local bars, the landlord has clearer grounds for complaint. Finally, locks guard against crimes of opportunity. Not all of the world's aspiring thieves bother to learn lockpicking. Not all of them are sober enough to be very smart. And, as criminologists are fond of pointing out, a large percentage of crimes are committed by people the victim already knows, and there's a big social and psychological gap between "wandering into my cousin's house, seeing fifty bucks, and pocketing it" and "breaking down my cousin's door to look for fifty bucks."
- emhart 13y agoThat mark is only a request of a given locksmith. People have been putting pieces of tape, grinding or just going to Home Depot where the attendants don't check, forever.
- edwhitesell 13y agoSounds like a pretty novel idea. Until you lose your phone, your key.me account is hacked or any of a number of other things cause your data to get into the wrong hands. I'm not saying a physical key is perfect or doesn't have most of the same issues (lost, theft, etc.), but why create a larger attack surface through a medium you have potentially less control of?
- recursive 13y ago> why create a larger attack surface through a medium you have potentially less control of? For convenience.
- edwhitesell 13y ago> For convenience. Yes. The convenience of someone else who is targeting you.
- recursive 13y agoThat's just a side effect. The motivating reason is your own convenience.
- andrewmunsell 13y agoAssuming you don't have an address tied to your account, the risk can be mitigated somewhat. If you KeyMe account is hacked or phone is lost, it's similar to losing the physical key itself-- the thief doesn't really know what the key goes to. But, if the KeyMe user database is hacked along with personal information (billing address), then it becomes an issue. Also, if you lose your phone and have emergency contact information (or can lookup the address associated with the phone number), then the thief also knows where to go.
- carlmcqueen 13y agoHopefully everyone has a locked phone, but if they have a stolen phone and have gotten past the lock it is not hard to figure out someones home address on their phone by looking around apps and looking at the contacts.
- Jemaclus 13y agoSeems safe.
- negamax 13y agoHave personally spent $70 for forgetting my keys inside. Not the worst money spent but an expensive lesson nonetheless.
- sinak 13y agoSimilar service that was previously on HN: https://keysduplicated.com https://keysduplicated.com They now have an API too, and are targetting commercial used.
- gwendolynregina 13y agoThis will scale much more quickly and has a better use case if applied to a multi-person scenario indeed - where there is a need for one to grant someone else physical access. Considering how many physical locks there still are, despite the increasing usage of all the "smart locks" (biometric, mobile-connected etc.), this can really be useful to the masses.
- hoopism 13y agoConvenience vs Use Rate is off. I make keys maybe once every 5 years... am I weird? Lockouts are convenient for sure... but still the low occurrence rate makes proactive sign up a tough proposition.
- monkeynotes 13y agoThis was my thought also. I get locked out maybe once a decade, I really don't see the point in installing an app for that 'problem'. Chances are, by the time I need this service I will have long forgotten about it and go down an alternative commonplace route.
- hoopism 13y agoIf I ammortize the time, frustration and cost over a decade it's only penny/seconds a day.
- uptown 13y agoThey've been testing the market in 7-11's around NYC. They had a kiosk setup in my local 7-11, and had some salespeople promoting the service for a few months. I have no idea how many people they signed up ... but the salespeople and the kiosk are now gone. Anybody, from the neighborhood, that signed up expecting to be able to go back to that kiosk to print a replacement key are out of luck.
- shotgoal813 13y agoI actually got locked out a week ago and went back to one of their kiosks. I didn't see any of the salespeople from before either, but I was able to access my key with my fingerprint and email. You can still get your key made if you've registered before.
- Shank 13y agoCreated 9 minutes ago and this is the only comment? That's odd.
- rkuykendall-com 13y agoYou expect more than 1 comment for a 9 minute old account? People join HackerNews, often because they finally have something to say in a comment thread.
- kevincrane 13y agoSometimes people create accounts and start commenting shortly thereafter.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- najhr999 13y agoCouldn't a strange use this app to copy your key?
- EvanAnderson 13y agoI'm sure they could, but that makes attacks only slightly more difficult. It's fairly trivial to look at common key blanks and visually identify the bitting (the "combination" of cut heights necessary to move the tumblers in the lock to the shear line). Sometimes the key has the bitting stamped right on it, numerically, too.
- mikeash 13y agoA stranger could use your local hardware store to copy your key, and this has been possible for decades.
- Farfromthehood 13y agoI thought about making an app like this and open sourcing it for the hell of it. It wouldn't be too difficult to limit the scanning (read: image recognition) to just 5 notch Kwikset and Schlage (standard/ residential) keys and outputting the key's code to the user.
- basseq 13y agoFascinating, but I don't think I've ever been locked out of my house. CARS, on the other hand, are another story. But in this day of laser-cut keys and computer chips, this app won't be very helpful. I am more interested in the DUPLICATION service, considering the failure rate of keys I get from Home Depot, etc. (50% at best).
- TrainedMonkey 13y agoWith all the high quality optics on the market, what is stopping you from taking a picture of a key that belongs to somebody else? I am also somewhat surprised there is no legislature that prevents locksmiths from duplicating keys without physical copy being present. Otherwise this is pretty awesome idea, that unfortunately highlights that it is high time our locks got more secure.
- jordanbmeyer 13y agoBoth Keyme and Keysduplicated.com makes sure you have pictures of both the front and back of the key, so you can't just do a fly by picture of keys on a table. They also have your CC and mailing address, which is more traceable than just going to the hardware store.
- jusben1369 13y agoMaybe the future of TaskRabbit becomes like Amazon. That is, you still sell a fair few services (products) but where you really make money is as an umbrella for all of these one use services that are starting up. Just go to TaskRabbit to search for "pick up my dry cleaning. Send me a gluten free meal. Lost my key please replace" and they route and take a cut to these services.
- mbillie1 13y agoI think I'd rather go this direction: https://lockitron.com/ https://lockitron.com/ ... having my physical key info backed up in my phone sounds fine, but I think I'd rather avoid physical keys anyway, if possible. Despite the somewhat obvious fear of hacking/etc, I still think digital security is much more secure than your average lock. You can get a bump key for something like $1 online.
- nobodyshere 13y agoExcept there are better examples already in production at around the same price.
- XaspR8d 13y agoCare to share?
- dazmax 13y agoKevo for Bluetooth LE: http://amzn.com/B00CPTD5AQ http://amzn.com/B00CPTD5AQ If you add a Z-Wave controller like SmartThings, there are many options, including with keypads if you don't have your phone: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?field-keywords=z-wave+lock http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?field-keywords=z-wa...
- mikeash 13y agoI've looked at Kevo but their digital upsell model where they attempt to charge you for additional virtual "keys" turned me off completely. It's probably not a major problem, since it comes with 7 and you can reassign them, but the fact that they implemented such a system at all made me immediately look elsewhere.
- mbillie1 13y agoJust an example - I'm curious though, what other examples are there?
- 13y ago
- whyme 13y agoTo me this is like posting my password on the wall so that I don't forget.
- gvb 13y agoAnd writing the GPS location of the lock in question on the note. :-O In a couple of months I expect to see a HN story that is a google search of geotagged images of keys.
- zbruhnke 13y agoannnnd the app crashes for me
- mikeryan 13y agoJust don't forget your keys and your phone. My wife and I are looking into coded door locks (infant at home and the wife is afraid of locking herself out and the baby in) and found there's a $219 dollar door lock you can open with your phone. May make more sense then this solution. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CPTD5AQ/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=ur2&tag=kwikset-20 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CPTD5AQ/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=178...
- marincounty 13y agoI learned long ago to hide keys in unusual spots. I do need to put together a cheap home alarm system though.
- abimaelmartell 13y agoCheckout this -> https://lockitron.com/ https://lockitron.com/
- guptaneil 13y agoI assume OP is looking for an existing product, not one that might ship when the moons of Jupiter align. In all seriousness though, I've been waiting for my Lockitron for almost a year now, and others have been waiting for much longer. At this point, there's no way I can recommend Lockitron to anybody as anything more than a cool concept.
- CaveTech 13y agoThey sent me an email telling me my unit "shipped" last July and would arrive July 14-20th. 3 months later it still wasn't here so I sent an email, and the response was basically, "Uh... we expected to ship it to you at that time, but really we have no idea when we can actually ship it." 1 year after preorder they had to process the amazon payments preorders or amazon would void them. So here I am almost 2 years since I preordered a product that I've paid for, and they can't even give me an expected ship date. Of course they continue to send marketing emails/self congratulatory accomplishments about software updates and hardware fixes for a product that doesn't exist.
- seddona 13y agoI did this as a fun project a while back http://dittokey.com/ http://dittokey.com/ . I open sourced the app: https://github.com/andrewseddon/dittokey-iphone https://github.com/andrewseddon/dittokey-iphone and computer vision: https://github.com/andrewseddon/keyify https://github.com/andrewseddon/keyify No production ready, complete hack, but it does work. The vision side is an interesting problem. This was a while back and i was dealing with older cameras. I should imagine with modern phone cameras it's a pretty simple problem.
- emhart 13y agoOh, man! I saw this a while back and was very excited about it. I have a project I've been working on off and on in my spare time that I'd love to talk to you about if you'd be up for a conversation.
- kristopolous 13y agoThey still called it a "kiosk"? I think I respect them for not going down that pun road.
- lawl 13y agoSlightly OT: Is this type of key common in the US? A few years back I bought a lockpicking set, and locks like these are incredibly easy to open without much training. In Switzerland we have KABA locks pretty much everywhere. I don't know but I think they're much harder to pick and I guess you can't reconstruct them out of a photo because you don't know the depth of the holes. Also you need the key and lock the door from the outside with it, so you can't really lock yourself out. Doors that snap lock are incredibly rare here. Photo: http://www.kaba.ch/media/466464/v6/resized535x-1/dunkelrot-farbcode-01.jpg http://www.kaba.ch/media/466464/v6/resized535x-1/dunkelrot-f...
- rit 13y agoYes, at the very least in Apartments in the US. Every apartment I've lived in (in several states/both coasts) has had the simple style keys. IANAL (i am not a locksmith), however. Homeowners obviously have more choice in the locks they use, though.
- grinich 13y agoKABA is really uncommon for residential units in the US. But you probably could optically measure the key, since the dimple's diameter shows the depth. It's always seemed like a safety hazard to me with interior-locking doors. When I stayed with a friend in Paris, I was locked inside their flat when they left early for work.
- IvyMike 13y agoThey are. But I honestly don't care that much, because when my home was broken into, this is how they picked my lock: http://imgur.com/vN2LkNn http://imgur.com/vN2LkNn Here is an alternate solution: http://imgur.com/inJp7zB http://imgur.com/inJp7zB Yes, picking a lock is much quieter but the reality is most break-ins emphasize the word "break".
- svantana 13y agoObviously, lock safety tend to go hand in hand with other forms of safety. My experience is that houses and apartments in the US seem relatively easy to break into. Here in Stockholm (Sweden), I've never ever seen an apartment door that opens inwards (and most are steel enforced), and street-facing bottom floor windows have steel bars usually.
- qwerty_asdf 13y agoThis would be awesome, except for the fact that my landlord installed a "Mul-T-Lock" with "DO NOT DUPLICATE" instructions on all tenant keys, to prevent over-occupied apartments, unauthorized sublets, and squatters. http://www.mul-t-lock.com/ http://www.mul-t-lock.com/ And, guess what I tried: grinding off the "DO NOT DUPLICATE" instructions with an angle grinder, and getting copies made anyway. I walk into the hardware store, and ask the clerk for a copy. The guy glances at it, and gives me a funny look, and says: You got the card? Card? Uh... Ah, nah man, not on me. Pause and a long look... Okay, $25 bucks. Pay in cash. ...long pause. I look at the key prices, and a Mul-T-Lock copy is priced at $5. The guy's obviously inflating the price of the copy as an implicit bribe to do something he's not supposed to do. Fuck it. Let's see where this goes. 5 minutes later and I have a copy that works perfectly. Next week, the super changes the lock on the front door, distributes new keys to all tenants and tells us that the master was reported stolen.
- bitJericho 13y agoTake a picture, erase the message, print it, take a picture, use keyMe. Alternatively, find a hardware store where they aren't jerks.
- toomuchtodo 13y agoWhat's the difficulty level of laser-cutting a key?
- rahimiali 13y agoit turns our you need a fancy laser cutter to do this. melting brass reflects infrared everywhere, which can destroy everything within sight. one solution is to use a different frequency, which costs more. i run keysduplicated.com, and we long ago settled on CNC mills instead of laser cutters to make our keys. they're cheaper, slightly more reliable, and much faster.
- emhart 13y ago
- mrbill 13y agoI have a Kwikset pushbutton combo deadbolt. I can use either my key, a button combo, or my ZWave-enabled home security system via my phone to unlock the front door. Cost around $150 and took 10 minutes to install.
- jordanbmeyer 13y agoIf anyone is interested in playing around with it, Keys Duplicated has an API that you can use to make copies of keys from pictures: https://keysduplicated.com/API https://keysduplicated.com/API Its perfect for businesses that need access to the home, like cleaning and delivery services.
- drdaeman 13y ago...And don't forget to link with Foursquare account, so we'll know when you're on vacation overseas! Well, I'm obviously kidding, but I don't feel it's wise to share key material just like that. Guess, an encrypted file that's kept near the lock (like QR code kept at friendly neighbor's place or in your own postbox) which is decrypted and shown to a locksmith only when necessity arises would be a better idea. Unless, well, you forget the passphrase (which has to be strong) to decrypt the key. (Yep, they may kept data encrypted, and they probably do, but one has to trust on their word for that.)
- mschuster91 13y agoSo, I pickpocket the key of $stupid_colleague at work. Then, I deliver it to KeyMe to copy it... and place the keys back e.g. at the coffee machine, so that $stupid_colleague finds them again (or I do a reverse pickpocket). Later that night, or when I know the guy is on vacation, I empty his house. Yay for thieves.
- emhart 13y agoWhat part of that sequence of events were you unable to do before KeyMe or KeysDuplicated?
- mschuster91 13y agoThe speed, the fact that I can supply the photos via an app so I basically need only a minute with the keys (e.g. when the colleague is on the toilet and leaves the keys on the desk), and the fact that there are no eyewitnesses. A store clerk might be telling me to wait a bit for the key to duplicate, but in reality call the cops on me; there are cameras in hardware shops which can identify me and the bundle of keys and also there are other customers in the store.
- emhart 13y agoYou can get a high quality wrist-impression of a key in a couple of seconds if left alone with keys. You can even learn to sight read keys quite trivially. I don't think its so much the speed you are talking about as, perhaps, the accessibility of technique. I mean, if you can get a clean photo of a key, you can reproduce it. It's a physical object, its just metal. One of the first keys I ever made was from an old saw blade & just based on memory. Worked the very first time. So, I don't think these services really change the game at all, but perhaps provide a new level of information to the general public? Hopefully, as a rule, people would tend toward protecting their keys. Here's a gorgeous Cartier key protector: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/25421384_a-cartier-of-london-9ct-gold-key http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/25421384_a-cartier-of-lo... if you want to do it style.
- Zimba 13y ago
- stephengillie 13y agoGreat idea. How soon do you plan on having Android support? http://imgur.com/NsXyL2Q http://imgur.com/NsXyL2Q
- keymeinc 13y agohttp://imgur.com/gallery/lirgYqz http://imgur.com/gallery/lirgYqz
- ufmace 13y agoI have a much easier solution for solving lockouts - only use deadbolt-type locks. Once you go outside, you can only lock it with the key.