7 ms·

Philip Greenspun's take on Women in Science

32 points by apu 19y ago

naish 19y ago
This article should give everyone pause for thought--women and men. It is a little disheartening to think that I went into engineering as a path to medicine (with better security and compensation) and got sidetracked by interesting work. As a tenure-track professor with an itch to pursue a startup, I am wondering if I should start scratching. If only there wasn't a family in the equation...
- zandorg 19y ago
  If they're in the equation, cancel them out! :-)
- geebee 19y ago
  As a professor, you're probably in a pretty good position to start a family. As a professor, you're probably going to have to give the university a big cut of whatever benefit you generate, but at the same time, you probably have more freedom and autonomy than most. Plus, you have a steady salary. On the down side, I don't know how hard you're working to get tenure - maybe too hard to launch a meaningful effort at a startup. I read that at Stanford, it's pretty common for a CS professor to have started a company, almost a rite of passage. So maybe this would work out for you...
bdr 19y ago
Here's another response to the Larry Summers incident. Why are there more men than women in mechanical engineering? Elizabeth Spelke debates Steven Pinker: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/debate05_index.html http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/debate05_index.html (watch the whole video, it's brilliant)
mhartl 19y ago
I agree with Philip's basic observation that scientific careers are overrated, but a lot of his arguments would appear work against academic careers in general. The "scientific careers suck but men are irrational" hypothesis doesn't explain why there are so few women in mathematics and chemistry vs. history or English literature, or indeed why there's so much variation within science, with plenty of female biologists but very few female theoretical physicists.
- brlewis 19y ago
  What part of a history or literature career involves insane hours? Those fields are a perfectly good thing to do during the day if you don't need money.
  - mhartl 19y ago
    All jobs in academia demand long hours if you're serious about getting tenure.
    - testapplication 19y ago
      It is hard to be serious about getting tenure in an English department, which amongst typical universities tend to have orders of magnitude less tenure spots available per actual tenure-track position.
- geebee 19y ago
  That's a good point. The large number of women pursuing Ph.Ds in English literature and Bio does tend to undercut the argument that women are avoiding Ph.D's in math and hard science because they are more rational. That said, we do need to distinguish between fields. Phil argues that "Adjusted for IQ, quantitative skills, and working hours, jobs in science are the lowest paid in the United States." Would you make the same statement for jobs in literature? Are Lit professors as capable of pursuing these highly paid alternative career paths as the Math/Hard Sci/Engineering Ph.D's? It's a highly contentious question, I know. I'd say that most lit Ph.D's probably don't have strong quant skills, nor do they have much of a science background. So they clearly are not choosing lit over a career in high finance or medicine. However, law is probably an option, so the women who pursue a lit Ph.D may be exhibiting at least some of the "irrationality" that the men are. I guess it comes down to how you feel about the Science Ph.D vs Medicine, Finance or Law relative to the Humanities Ph.D vs Law only. If the situations are analagous (which is open to debate), I'd say you've uncovered a major flaw in Greenspun's "men are more irrational" argument.
  - DocSavage 19y ago
mynameishere 19y ago
Women don't go into science because the behavior of inanimate objects doesn't interest them.
- pythondude 19y ago
  This was downmoded? wtf. My girlfriend does a Phd in relationship therapy and she says that it is interesting to her because it has both and emotional component and an analytical component. For me anything to do with emotions is a no no. Women are into those areas because they need something more than what the hard sciences has to offer not because they have less to bring to the table.
ivankirigin 19y ago
Science jobs are often the most free.
dhbradshaw 19y ago
People who think they can't have children or get married are cheating themselves. You don't have to make 150k per year to have more than you need. We had our first child when I was an undergrad and my wife was working. My wife quit working and I graduated so that I could be paid to go to school rather than the other way around. We bought a cute little home on a graduate stipend and had another child. I graduated with a masters degree and worked for a year and we had another child. I started my PhD a bit over 4 years ago and we have had two children since then, bringing the total up to 5. We have always had more than we need and our children are doing great. I'll graduate in a couple of years, perhaps after having a couple more kids and I think we'll have substantial savings. My wife has never had to work and we have never relied on the state for health care or income. Graduate school demands some focus but it is also extremely flexible. I choose my schedule and it's been a great life. The bottom line is that it doesn't cost that much to live comfortably and take care of children. Choose what you want to do and then find a way to do it. It might be wise, though, to look at home prices near the schools that you apply to . . .
- Agathos 19y ago
  Where did you buy this cute little home on a graduate stipend? There are certainly some places where you can. I heard from several students who did this when I visited Wash. U. in St. Louis. But I ended up in Cambridge, and here there's just no way.
  - dhbradshaw 19y ago
    Baltimore. Biophysics.

32 points by apu 19y ago

naish 19y ago

This article should give everyone pause for thought--women and men. It is a little disheartening to think that I went into engineering as a path to medicine (with better security and compensation) and got sidetracked by interesting work. As a tenure-track professor with an itch to pursue a startup, I am wondering if I should start scratching. If only there wasn't a family in the equation...

zandorg 19y ago
If they're in the equation, cancel them out! :-)
geebee 19y ago
As a professor, you're probably in a pretty good position to start a family. As a professor, you're probably going to have to give the university a big cut of whatever benefit you generate, but at the same time, you probably have more freedom and autonomy than most. Plus, you have a steady salary. On the down side, I don't know how hard you're working to get tenure - maybe too hard to launch a meaningful effort at a startup. I read that at Stanford, it's pretty common for a CS professor to have started a company, almost a rite of passage. So maybe this would work out for you...

bdr 19y ago

Here's another response to the Larry Summers incident. Why are there more men than women in mechanical engineering? Elizabeth Spelke debates Steven Pinker: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/debate05_index.html http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/debate05_index.html (watch the whole video, it's brilliant)

mhartl 19y ago

I agree with Philip's basic observation that scientific careers are overrated, but a lot of his arguments would appear work against academic careers in general. The "scientific careers suck but men are irrational" hypothesis doesn't explain why there are so few women in mathematics and chemistry vs. history or English literature, or indeed why there's so much variation within science, with plenty of female biologists but very few female theoretical physicists.

brlewis 19y ago
What part of a history or literature career involves insane hours? Those fields are a perfectly good thing to do during the day if you don't need money.
- mhartl 19y ago
  All jobs in academia demand long hours if you're serious about getting tenure.
  - testapplication 19y ago
    It is hard to be serious about getting tenure in an English department, which amongst typical universities tend to have orders of magnitude less tenure spots available per actual tenure-track position.
geebee 19y ago
That's a good point. The large number of women pursuing Ph.Ds in English literature and Bio does tend to undercut the argument that women are avoiding Ph.D's in math and hard science because they are more rational. That said, we do need to distinguish between fields. Phil argues that "Adjusted for IQ, quantitative skills, and working hours, jobs in science are the lowest paid in the United States." Would you make the same statement for jobs in literature? Are Lit professors as capable of pursuing these highly paid alternative career paths as the Math/Hard Sci/Engineering Ph.D's? It's a highly contentious question, I know. I'd say that most lit Ph.D's probably don't have strong quant skills, nor do they have much of a science background. So they clearly are not choosing lit over a career in high finance or medicine. However, law is probably an option, so the women who pursue a lit Ph.D may be exhibiting at least some of the "irrationality" that the men are. I guess it comes down to how you feel about the Science Ph.D vs Medicine, Finance or Law relative to the Humanities Ph.D vs Law only. If the situations are analagous (which is open to debate), I'd say you've uncovered a major flaw in Greenspun's "men are more irrational" argument.
- DocSavage 19y ago

mynameishere 19y ago

Women don't go into science because the behavior of inanimate objects doesn't interest them.

pythondude 19y ago
This was downmoded? wtf. My girlfriend does a Phd in relationship therapy and she says that it is interesting to her because it has both and emotional component and an analytical component. For me anything to do with emotions is a no no. Women are into those areas because they need something more than what the hard sciences has to offer not because they have less to bring to the table.

ivankirigin 19y ago

Science jobs are often the most free.

dhbradshaw 19y ago

People who think they can't have children or get married are cheating themselves. You don't have to make 150k per year to have more than you need. We had our first child when I was an undergrad and my wife was working. My wife quit working and I graduated so that I could be paid to go to school rather than the other way around. We bought a cute little home on a graduate stipend and had another child. I graduated with a masters degree and worked for a year and we had another child. I started my PhD a bit over 4 years ago and we have had two children since then, bringing the total up to 5. We have always had more than we need and our children are doing great. I'll graduate in a couple of years, perhaps after having a couple more kids and I think we'll have substantial savings. My wife has never had to work and we have never relied on the state for health care or income. Graduate school demands some focus but it is also extremely flexible. I choose my schedule and it's been a great life. The bottom line is that it doesn't cost that much to live comfortably and take care of children. Choose what you want to do and then find a way to do it. It might be wise, though, to look at home prices near the schools that you apply to . . .

Agathos 19y ago
Where did you buy this cute little home on a graduate stipend? There are certainly some places where you can. I heard from several students who did this when I visited Wash. U. in St. Louis. But I ended up in Cambridge, and here there's just no way.
- dhbradshaw 19y ago
  Baltimore. Biophysics.