5 ms·

> It goes to inflating the administrative staffs and inflating the salaries of the highest ranked members of that staff. This. Bureaucratic bloat, no accountab

> It goes to inflating the administrative staffs and inflating the salaries of the highest ranked members of that staff. This. Bureaucratic bloat, no accountability and terrible efficiency. Many Universities are the largest employers in their state. Do our Universities exist to be Research and Educational institutions, or to employ armies of admin workers that push papers?

dangerlibrary 13y ago
Porque no los dos?
HarryHirsch 13y ago
It's popular here to blame the growth of administrative and non-teaching staff on a self-serving bureacracy, but I don't think that's the case, it is due to circumstances. The size of IT infrastructure has grown immensely compared to 30 years back, so you need people to take care of that. My department has four IT support people, and they carry a full workload. The amount of foreign students has grown, consequently you need people to keep track of immigration requirements that seem to get worse each passing year, and you also need cultural programs, you can't expect people from non-western countries to be thrown into an alien culture and succeed. The number of non-traditional and first-generation college students has grown, if the student body consists only of middle-class and wealthy people you don't need support staff for the students who teach them how to study. Then there is career services, these things are expected these days. Back when you knew the major employers, and they had a hiring pipeline at your university. There is also this competition through facilities, gyms and really fancy dorms are the norm, and those things need looking after. Anyone who proposes cutting back on administrative staff must give suggestions how to deal with all these issues.
- jdreaver 13y ago
  Everyone pays for these services, but not everyone uses them. For example, I had to pay a ridiculous $600 per year for the recreation center fee in college. I never once stepped in that place, and they wouldn't let me not pay it. I also never used my college's career center, and I have a job. The services you listed are great; I'm not saying gyms and career centers are bad at all. The problem is that everyone in the school is forced to pay for them. The bloat comes because they get more funding than they need.
  - HarryHirsch 13y ago
    Everyone pays for these services, but not everyone uses them. Here's the deal: it's not about you, it's the university that runs the numbers and decides where the scarce funds will go. (Yes, the funds are scarce. The machinist in my old department will retire soon, and the fear is that there won't be a replacement. When he leaves it will be a disaster, there won't be custom-built instrumentation any longer.) If the rec. center attracts more tuition than it costs to provide there will be a rec. center. If the center for remedial math will prevent an unprepared student from dropping out - if three years more in tuition provides more money than running the courses then there will be remedial math. That's how non-teaching staff are allocated.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- waterlesscloud 13y ago
  Here's how to deal with many of them - Cut them. They aren't necessary, they're nice to have. When it comes to budgets, the nice to have things that aren't really necessary get cut. It's not all that hard.
  - bequanna 13y ago
    Exactly. If people saw the cost to provide these services as a % of their tuition, I am guessing most students would prefer to simply do without and pay less.
- bsder 13y ago
  > The amount of foreign students has grown, consequently you need people to keep track of immigration requirements that seem to get worse each passing year, and you also need cultural programs, you can't expect people from non-western countries to be thrown into an alien culture and succeed. Um, most of the reason foreign student enrollment has grown is because foreign students pay cash. Adding bureaucracy to manage students who whom you admitted primarily because they carry cash is not something I particularly sympathize with.
  - xerophtye 13y ago
    Not to mention colleges usually charge foreign students DOUBLE, even when they are from third world countries.... So if foreign students extra cost, it must already get covered by what they pay extra
    - dangerlibrary 13y ago
      Are you referring to out-of-state tuition (which also applies to non-foreign students), or something else? If something else, can you link to a source describing this? I'd love to know more.
bunderbunder 13y ago
Looking at my local university's budget, research and educational costs still account for most of the budget. But research costs are becoming enormous - they're spending over 1/3 of the budget on research, and only half as much on education. Which isn't to say that we shouldn't be spending money on research, or that universities shouldn't be the ones to do it. But considering that government funding for research has been stagnating lately, I wonder if a less-explored factor in the situation hasn't been that we've slacked off on investing in research and are sticking our kids with the bill instead.
- bequanna 13y ago
  Ok...So, you are saying that less than 1/2 of the budget can be traced to actually supporting research and education. Where is the other 1/2?
  - bunderbunder 13y ago
    Together, research & education is a bit over half. Of the rest, the 5 next biggest things are financial aid at 12%, "enterprise operations" (which covers administration of everything from state labs to the student bookstore) at 8%, student services (including athletics) at 7%, academic support (administrators, libraries, etc.) at 6%, and physical plant at 6%.
keeshawn 13y ago
Different Universities exist for different purposes; often times multiple purposes at once. You can't run a research and educational system without administration. But as a student, I don't see gleaming new facilities or well-paid professors with nice cars. I see everything is crap, the professors are unhappy/underpaid, and the students are depressed and going into huge amounts of debt to pay for all this. Where's all this money going? Who are the ones getting rich from our future?

dangerlibrary 13y ago

Porque no los dos?

HarryHirsch 13y ago

It's popular here to blame the growth of administrative and non-teaching staff on a self-serving bureacracy, but I don't think that's the case, it is due to circumstances. The size of IT infrastructure has grown immensely compared to 30 years back, so you need people to take care of that. My department has four IT support people, and they carry a full workload. The amount of foreign students has grown, consequently you need people to keep track of immigration requirements that seem to get worse each passing year, and you also need cultural programs, you can't expect people from non-western countries to be thrown into an alien culture and succeed. The number of non-traditional and first-generation college students has grown, if the student body consists only of middle-class and wealthy people you don't need support staff for the students who teach them how to study. Then there is career services, these things are expected these days. Back when you knew the major employers, and they had a hiring pipeline at your university. There is also this competition through facilities, gyms and really fancy dorms are the norm, and those things need looking after. Anyone who proposes cutting back on administrative staff must give suggestions how to deal with all these issues.

jdreaver 13y ago
Everyone pays for these services, but not everyone uses them. For example, I had to pay a ridiculous $600 per year for the recreation center fee in college. I never once stepped in that place, and they wouldn't let me not pay it. I also never used my college's career center, and I have a job. The services you listed are great; I'm not saying gyms and career centers are bad at all. The problem is that everyone in the school is forced to pay for them. The bloat comes because they get more funding than they need.
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  Everyone pays for these services, but not everyone uses them. Here's the deal: it's not about you, it's the university that runs the numbers and decides where the scarce funds will go. (Yes, the funds are scarce. The machinist in my old department will retire soon, and the fear is that there won't be a replacement. When he leaves it will be a disaster, there won't be custom-built instrumentation any longer.) If the rec. center attracts more tuition than it costs to provide there will be a rec. center. If the center for remedial math will prevent an unprepared student from dropping out - if three years more in tuition provides more money than running the courses then there will be remedial math. That's how non-teaching staff are allocated.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
waterlesscloud 13y ago
Here's how to deal with many of them - Cut them. They aren't necessary, they're nice to have. When it comes to budgets, the nice to have things that aren't really necessary get cut. It's not all that hard.
- bequanna 13y ago
  Exactly. If people saw the cost to provide these services as a % of their tuition, I am guessing most students would prefer to simply do without and pay less.
bsder 13y ago
> The amount of foreign students has grown, consequently you need people to keep track of immigration requirements that seem to get worse each passing year, and you also need cultural programs, you can't expect people from non-western countries to be thrown into an alien culture and succeed. Um, most of the reason foreign student enrollment has grown is because foreign students pay cash. Adding bureaucracy to manage students who whom you admitted primarily because they carry cash is not something I particularly sympathize with.
- xerophtye 13y ago
  Not to mention colleges usually charge foreign students DOUBLE, even when they are from third world countries.... So if foreign students extra cost, it must already get covered by what they pay extra
  - dangerlibrary 13y ago
    Are you referring to out-of-state tuition (which also applies to non-foreign students), or something else? If something else, can you link to a source describing this? I'd love to know more.

bunderbunder 13y ago

Looking at my local university's budget, research and educational costs still account for most of the budget. But research costs are becoming enormous - they're spending over 1/3 of the budget on research, and only half as much on education. Which isn't to say that we shouldn't be spending money on research, or that universities shouldn't be the ones to do it. But considering that government funding for research has been stagnating lately, I wonder if a less-explored factor in the situation hasn't been that we've slacked off on investing in research and are sticking our kids with the bill instead.

bequanna 13y ago
Ok...So, you are saying that less than 1/2 of the budget can be traced to actually supporting research and education. Where is the other 1/2?
- bunderbunder 13y ago
  Together, research & education is a bit over half. Of the rest, the 5 next biggest things are financial aid at 12%, "enterprise operations" (which covers administration of everything from state labs to the student bookstore) at 8%, student services (including athletics) at 7%, academic support (administrators, libraries, etc.) at 6%, and physical plant at 6%.

keeshawn 13y ago

Different Universities exist for different purposes; often times multiple purposes at once. You can't run a research and educational system without administration. But as a student, I don't see gleaming new facilities or well-paid professors with nice cars. I see everything is crap, the professors are unhappy/underpaid, and the students are depressed and going into huge amounts of debt to pay for all this. Where's all this money going? Who are the ones getting rich from our future?