5 ms·

They should just go straight to Android - nice touchscreen drivers, 3G, that Dalvik thing - what more is needed apart from a few device drivers to spit the mone

They should just go straight to Android - nice touchscreen drivers, 3G, that Dalvik thing - what more is needed apart from a few device drivers to spit the money out?

tluyben2 13y ago
I must say I really agree on this one; solid coding environment made for touch, energy friendly, small footprint, easy to use, lot of programmers. But... Is there actually a company who does support for it? As I understand that's not Google. I mean they develop on it, but who can I call/contact 24/7 with issues? So someone needs to do that anyway. If I would be into POS systems still they would be Android anyway. Makes all the sense in the world.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  Yes, there are multiple systems integrators who can create and support embedded Android devices. It's not too complicated to keep up with AOSP if you didn't go overboard with OS mods.
geekxworld 13y ago
Clever suggestion! Android seems perfect, almost as if it was made for ATMs. Plus, it is based on Linux, which is extremely secure.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  > Plus, it is based on Linux, which is extremely secure. Linux the kernel, I would say, to avoid ambiguity. And second, I'm not sure what you refer to when you say "extremely secure" but even Linux had its share of issues recently (GnuTLS library).
  - tsahyt 13y ago
    The beauty about Linux (and a lot of well-maintained open source software) is that security flaws are usually patched rather quickly -- with the possible exception of the disaster that is X, but Wayland is coming along nicely.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      > patched rather quickly For offline equipments, not sure how likely they would be patched, though.
      - gambiting 13y ago
        I don't know why you are getting downvoted - ATMs are never connected to the Internet directly, they connect to the bank either using a built in modem(yes, the dial-up variety) or their own VPN systems. So it's extremely unlikely, if not just impossible for them to be downloading their own software updates, unless they are published by the bank for the machines to download.
        hueving 13y ago
        I didn't downvote, but I'm guessing it's because the majority of vulnerabilities are irrelevant if the thing is not connected to the Internet.
    - e12e 13y ago
      There have been a few bugs that have been patched, but turned out to have been introduce quite a while before they were reported and patched. That doesn't mean they were not found long before they were reported/fixed, though. I agree that free software seems to be very much responsive to disclosed issues though, and while many vendors (perhaps especially Microsoft) have gotten a lot better lately, the image remains (rightly or not) that closed source companies move (too) slow when it comes to patching security issues. (Part of that is quality control, patching one bug tends to introduce/expose more)
  - hueving 13y ago
    Not to be too pedantic, but the GnuTLS library isn't "Linux the kernel".
Nux 13y ago
How well does Android fair on x86? (I'm assuming that's what most ATMs use)
- josteink 13y ago
  Very well. It does better than most version of both Windows and Linux as far as smoothing and responsiveness goes. It runs well on much less resources. It does have some quirks when trying to use it with software designed for swiping in mind and a keyboard and mouse, but that's probably not going to be an issue here. I say Android could be a good choice, and it will also give them a migration path from X86 should they later on want to.
- gambiting 13y ago
  There is plenty of phones and tablets which run ultra-ultra low voltage of intel x86 CPUs and run Android - they are almost always faster and more energy efficient than their ARM counterparts.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
e12e 13y ago
I wasn't aware Android had drivers, I thought Linux had drivers, and Android was mostly a userland?
- gambiting 13y ago
  I think you are misunderstanding something here. Android runs on a modified linux kernel - and that kernel can load drivers like any other. You make a distinction here as if Android was just this thing running on top of the kernel - it's not, the kernel is absolutely essential and part of Android. So yes, following the logic of this, Android absolutely does support drivers.
  - e12e 13y ago
    The kernel is GPL, drivers for "Android+Linux" are also available under Linux -- afaik there isn't an "Android ABI" making the porting of "Android" drivers much of a port at all? [edit: I suppose things might be a little (but only a little wrt drivers) worse than I thought, given eg: http://lwn.net/Articles/481661/ http://lwn.net/Articles/481661/ ]
zurn 13y ago
No security updates after next versions ships...
- kalleboo 13y ago
  Easy! Just run CyanogenMod nightlies on the ATM...
  - kiallmacinnes 13y ago
    Haha yea, that was my first thought when someone suggested android ;) I'm an android fan.. But, I just don't see it for something like ATMs. ATMs need physical buttons for disabled users, so the whole touchscreen thing is a no go. They need experienced, stood the test of time, companies to provide support over the 10-15 year lifetime. They need reliable and auditable source code, so the less code, the better. In other words, they need something that's not android. The Linux kernel makes a lot of sense given these requirements, paired with a bare minimal userspace and graphics stack, they can likely make good on their existing hardware until it either ceases up or simply can't support new standards like Chip+PIN.
    - brokenparser 13y ago
      NanoBSD would be easier to audit than anything Linux based. Once it's booted, you can physically disconnect the write pin of your storage device. If you can manage to dump the contents of it externally to the host, you can then compare checksums to see if anything has been compromised.
      - bradyd 13y ago
        > Once it's booted, you can physically disconnect the write pin of your storage device. Does this mean it requires someone on site to boot the machine? I could see that might not be an issue for ATMs, as they are usually located near banks. It might be an issue for remote locations, though.
        13y ago
brudgers 13y ago
Tooling to integrate with a COBOL backend? Bankers and ATM manufacturers ain't morons. They aren't using Windows XP out of ignorance. ATM's have been widely deployed in the US since about 1980 and it's the last version of Windows that runs old 16 bit code directly. It is not as if banks have an aversion to Linux. What they are averse to is risk. Reimplementation requires testing for a level of robustness well to the north of MtGox. Multi-touch pinch to zoom doesn't matter- ATM's require physical buttons for handicap accessibility [by law in the US]. Disrupting banks isn't about ATM's. It's about new financial structures.
- NameNickHN 13y ago
  > Bankers and ATM manufacturers ain't morons. Moron is perhaps a harsh word but it's been known to the public when Microsoft will stop supporting Windows XP. They had years to prepare. And they are multi billion dollar corporations. How can they have dropped the ball with this?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    Time taken to certify a more recent version of the OS? Time needed to sort out a 16bit backend? I don't know, I'm just thinking of possible reasons. Same as in the good old NHS in the UK [1] and especially the comment at [2]. [1] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/20/doh_microsoft_nhs_one_year_xp_deal/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/20/doh_microsoft_nhs_on... [2] http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2014/03/20/doh_microsoft_nhs_one_year_xp_deal/#c_2139816 http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2014/03/20/doh_micro... and http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/2/2014/03/20/doh_microsoft_nhs_one_year_xp_deal/#c_2140051 http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/2/2014/03/20/doh_micro...
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - test1235 13y ago
    No one's dropped the ball - everyone's ignored it as someone else's problem as it's a maintenance issue, not one for direct profit. Same as for the y2k and and IPv4 problems. Outside of IT, it's probably the same for global warming. There's probably a special/psychological term for this.
yitchelle 13y ago
Sounds like a great idea. One question whether Android would need to go through some type of certification for financial applications?

They should just go straight to Android - nice touchscreen drivers, 3G, that Dalvik thing - what more is needed apart from a few device drivers to spit the money out?

tluyben2 13y ago

I must say I really agree on this one; solid coding environment made for touch, energy friendly, small footprint, easy to use, lot of programmers. But... Is there actually a company who does support for it? As I understand that's not Google. I mean they develop on it, but who can I call/contact 24/7 with issues? So someone needs to do that anyway. If I would be into POS systems still they would be Android anyway. Makes all the sense in the world.

Zigurd 13y ago
Yes, there are multiple systems integrators who can create and support embedded Android devices. It's not too complicated to keep up with AOSP if you didn't go overboard with OS mods.

geekxworld 13y ago

Clever suggestion! Android seems perfect, almost as if it was made for ATMs. Plus, it is based on Linux, which is extremely secure.

ekianjo 13y ago
> Plus, it is based on Linux, which is extremely secure. Linux the kernel, I would say, to avoid ambiguity. And second, I'm not sure what you refer to when you say "extremely secure" but even Linux had its share of issues recently (GnuTLS library).
- tsahyt 13y ago
  The beauty about Linux (and a lot of well-maintained open source software) is that security flaws are usually patched rather quickly -- with the possible exception of the disaster that is X, but Wayland is coming along nicely.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > patched rather quickly For offline equipments, not sure how likely they would be patched, though.
    - gambiting 13y ago
      I don't know why you are getting downvoted - ATMs are never connected to the Internet directly, they connect to the bank either using a built in modem(yes, the dial-up variety) or their own VPN systems. So it's extremely unlikely, if not just impossible for them to be downloading their own software updates, unless they are published by the bank for the machines to download.
      - hueving 13y ago
        I didn't downvote, but I'm guessing it's because the majority of vulnerabilities are irrelevant if the thing is not connected to the Internet.
  - e12e 13y ago
    There have been a few bugs that have been patched, but turned out to have been introduce quite a while before they were reported and patched. That doesn't mean they were not found long before they were reported/fixed, though. I agree that free software seems to be very much responsive to disclosed issues though, and while many vendors (perhaps especially Microsoft) have gotten a lot better lately, the image remains (rightly or not) that closed source companies move (too) slow when it comes to patching security issues. (Part of that is quality control, patching one bug tends to introduce/expose more)
- hueving 13y ago
  Not to be too pedantic, but the GnuTLS library isn't "Linux the kernel".

Nux 13y ago

How well does Android fair on x86? (I'm assuming that's what most ATMs use)

josteink 13y ago
Very well. It does better than most version of both Windows and Linux as far as smoothing and responsiveness goes. It runs well on much less resources. It does have some quirks when trying to use it with software designed for swiping in mind and a keyboard and mouse, but that's probably not going to be an issue here. I say Android could be a good choice, and it will also give them a migration path from X86 should they later on want to.
gambiting 13y ago
There is plenty of phones and tablets which run ultra-ultra low voltage of intel x86 CPUs and run Android - they are almost always faster and more energy efficient than their ARM counterparts.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

e12e 13y ago

I wasn't aware Android had drivers, I thought Linux had drivers, and Android was mostly a userland?

gambiting 13y ago
I think you are misunderstanding something here. Android runs on a modified linux kernel - and that kernel can load drivers like any other. You make a distinction here as if Android was just this thing running on top of the kernel - it's not, the kernel is absolutely essential and part of Android. So yes, following the logic of this, Android absolutely does support drivers.
- e12e 13y ago
  The kernel is GPL, drivers for "Android+Linux" are also available under Linux -- afaik there isn't an "Android ABI" making the porting of "Android" drivers much of a port at all? [edit: I suppose things might be a little (but only a little wrt drivers) worse than I thought, given eg: http://lwn.net/Articles/481661/ http://lwn.net/Articles/481661/ ]

zurn 13y ago

No security updates after next versions ships...

kalleboo 13y ago
Easy! Just run CyanogenMod nightlies on the ATM...
- kiallmacinnes 13y ago
  Haha yea, that was my first thought when someone suggested android ;) I'm an android fan.. But, I just don't see it for something like ATMs. ATMs need physical buttons for disabled users, so the whole touchscreen thing is a no go. They need experienced, stood the test of time, companies to provide support over the 10-15 year lifetime. They need reliable and auditable source code, so the less code, the better. In other words, they need something that's not android. The Linux kernel makes a lot of sense given these requirements, paired with a bare minimal userspace and graphics stack, they can likely make good on their existing hardware until it either ceases up or simply can't support new standards like Chip+PIN.
  - brokenparser 13y ago
    NanoBSD would be easier to audit than anything Linux based. Once it's booted, you can physically disconnect the write pin of your storage device. If you can manage to dump the contents of it externally to the host, you can then compare checksums to see if anything has been compromised.
    - bradyd 13y ago
      > Once it's booted, you can physically disconnect the write pin of your storage device. Does this mean it requires someone on site to boot the machine? I could see that might not be an issue for ATMs, as they are usually located near banks. It might be an issue for remote locations, though.
      - 13y ago

brudgers 13y ago

Tooling to integrate with a COBOL backend? Bankers and ATM manufacturers ain't morons. They aren't using Windows XP out of ignorance. ATM's have been widely deployed in the US since about 1980 and it's the last version of Windows that runs old 16 bit code directly. It is not as if banks have an aversion to Linux. What they are averse to is risk. Reimplementation requires testing for a level of robustness well to the north of MtGox. Multi-touch pinch to zoom doesn't matter- ATM's require physical buttons for handicap accessibility [by law in the US]. Disrupting banks isn't about ATM's. It's about new financial structures.

NameNickHN 13y ago
> Bankers and ATM manufacturers ain't morons. Moron is perhaps a harsh word but it's been known to the public when Microsoft will stop supporting Windows XP. They had years to prepare. And they are multi billion dollar corporations. How can they have dropped the ball with this?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- keithpeter 13y ago
  Time taken to certify a more recent version of the OS? Time needed to sort out a 16bit backend? I don't know, I'm just thinking of possible reasons. Same as in the good old NHS in the UK [1] and especially the comment at [2]. [1] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/20/doh_microsoft_nhs_one_year_xp_deal/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/20/doh_microsoft_nhs_on... [2] http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2014/03/20/doh_microsoft_nhs_one_year_xp_deal/#c_2139816 http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2014/03/20/doh_micro... and http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/2/2014/03/20/doh_microsoft_nhs_one_year_xp_deal/#c_2140051 http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/2/2014/03/20/doh_micro...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- test1235 13y ago
  No one's dropped the ball - everyone's ignored it as someone else's problem as it's a maintenance issue, not one for direct profit. Same as for the y2k and and IPv4 problems. Outside of IT, it's probably the same for global warming. There's probably a special/psychological term for this.

yitchelle 13y ago

Sounds like a great idea. One question whether Android would need to go through some type of certification for financial applications?