6 ms·

I am currently spending my life working on signal processing - constructing a story of what is happening in the world from sensor data. And you know what - nois

by RogerL 13y ago

I am currently spending my life working on signal processing - constructing a story of what is happening in the world from sensor data. And you know what - noise is good. You would perhaps think that the thing to do is to turn on the filters, crank 'em up, and don't ever let a noisy bit of data through. But, of course, that does not work. Noise is helpful. It's still signal. I can construct more information from a noisy signal than an overly filtered one. Back to forums, I was a participant in several for a different niche area. One was obsessed with post 'quality' - a horde of moderators swarming around, then after awhile they'd comb through every thread, deleting every comment they found not worthy so they would have some kind of pristine archive, and so on. They utterly failed. Oh, they are still trundling along. But the sites with the industry leaders posting? Those are the ones with far less concern with 'quality'. Why would an expert spend time crafting an answer to somebody when it is likely or possible that it will either not get approved to show up, or later deleted? It made no sense to them, they vocally complained, were again and again told this was for the greater good, and so they all left. Now, if you want to talk to an expert, you go to one of the other forums; if you want to talk to a complete amateur, but with never a post off topic, well, you go to the controlled one. You'll get terrible advice, or no advice at all, but hey, it's civil and on topic. I've concluded nothing about HN yet, but I don't forsee myself clicking away, endorsing post after post. This is mostly a 'consume' site for me, and occasionally, post. I don't want to spend my time endorsing and clicking away. I'll upvote once in a while, and almost never downvote. I can't see that changing much. I can't see posting anymore; I am giving you value (or trying to), and you hold it hostage. Ya, okay, if that is how you feel, I'll go elsewhere. I recognize that sounds petulant, but back to the site in the first paragraph - a lot of people stopped posting because so much did not survive the great purges that went on. Why go to this effort if others will silence you? Noise is not the enemy of quality. It is not the enemy of value. It's a wonderful side effect of free thinking, innovative thinking, of creation, of invention. It's messy, it's beautiful. I love noise for what it represents. Long live noise.

sourceless 13y ago
I think it's for a similar reason sites such as reddit and 4chan (though their topics are often rather lewd) have seen so much success. They're like big melting pots, and all the good stuff floats to the top. Sometimes even the most average of topics can be made interesting by a relative unknown providing some insight. TL;DR you really reduce your chance of finding diamonds if you don't let some dirt through too.
grannyg00se 13y ago
I really appreciate the sentiment here, but at the same time I don't want to see a thread with five hundred comments that say This. Or whatever trendy catch phrase is floating around the mindspace that month. And this system differs from what you describe in that there will be no set group of moderators. The community itself will decide what it wants to see and encourage the type of contribution it deems valid.
- king_magic 13y ago
  Is this really a problem that HN has, though? I mean, yeah, occasionally, you'll see stuff like that. But anecdotally, I'd say it's definitely the exception. The type of comment you're talking about ("This.") feels like an invented boogeyman used to justify overly harsh censorship by the Party (the HN karma elite). I'm not saying HN is perfect as it is now - it's not - but personally, I feel the a greater problem lies with the quality of submissions rather than the quality of comments. Frankly, I'd rather see Pending Submissions instead of Pending Comments.
- virtuabhi 13y ago
  No offense but your argument is quite similar to UK's internet censorship law. Hey you don't want CP (in your case "trendy catch phrase"), so we should have a level of censorship (moderated comments). And in no time the system becomes the oppressor of free speech and flow of information. Also please note that the earlier system had upvotes/downvotes for comments. Through votes the community can decide the type of contribution it deems valid.
- RogerL 13y ago
  We don't have that problem here. Notice my argument was not for anarchy. Back to signal processing for a moment, I used 'noise' loosely. Signals of interest have noise and signal interspersed. It is often trivial to filter out pure noise, such as white noise. In forums, our white noise is 'this' comments, and we trivially filter those out with downvoting, and I suspect it is not particularly hard to write some lisp code to require endorsement for, say, one word or one sentence replies, and prevent the 'post' button from working if the text is 'this' in any variant. But if somebody puts a paragraph or more of time into a reply, well, that is not noise. It is signal. Sure, there may be snarkiness there, or not the most civil tone, but we have doing a good job of handling that on a personal level - in the form of replies such as "RogerL, your post, while interesting, is a bit negative. We strive for better here". I see that all the time (well, not addressed to me, but you know what I mean). That is wonderful. Regardless, there is still a lot of signal there. I have my settings set so that I can see hellbanned people. They are all posting things of value, even the one person with the religious content occasionally posts something worth reading. It is true that there will be no set group of moderators. I don't see how that changes the fundamental equation, but it might. As I said, I haven't formed any solid conclusion, but my gut reaction is that I don't think I feel like participating in endorsement. If we have a quality problem, it is one of submissions, of bad titles, not of 'this' comments.
pfarrell 13y ago
Thank you Roger for a well written post. It captured my sentiments in an analogy about complexity and chaos and value. I've been a reader of HN for a long time. I am not am industry thought leader. I'm one of the nameless horde of programmers that have been integral and famous at companies you've never heard of. I've had an account for over 2200 days, but have less than 250 karma. You know why? I only comment when I have something to say that I think is pertinent. When I do comment, I spend 5-10 minutes getting my wording good enough that I won't waste anyone's time. I will watch how this plays out, but I suspect this will be my final HN comment. This change confirms that PG does not want people like me participating in his forum. I hope I'm proved wrong; HN had been my main RSS feed for like 5 years. There's always lobste.rs
- robrenaud 13y ago
  If you post high quality content, almost nothing should change. Are you upset because you didn't fit in the somewhat arbitrary initial rule to be included in the set of moderators?
  - genwin 13y ago
    People downvote when they disagree. Presumably they won't endorse a pending comment when they disagree, regardless of quality.
- deveac 13y ago
  >I will watch how this plays out, but I suspect this will be my final HN comment. Might be a better idea to test the system and see how it affects your posts in actuality instead of relying on anecdotes from others though. Just a thought.
waterlesscloud 13y ago
For a community that's all about "disrupting" everything in the world, this place sure gets itself in a tizzy over every little change to its own world. Look, it's just a little change. It's not the end of the world. The impact is likely to be minimal, with only the very worst comments remaining unendorsed. Give it some time before you write up essays about why it's a bad idea. Accept a little disruption.
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  Mild changes to mechanism or community can have profound influences. Look at the trajectories of MySpace, Slashdot, or Digg, as examples. That said, I'm modestly optimistic for the "pending" policy.
- unclebucknasty 13y ago
  >For a community that's all about "disrupting" everything in the world, this place sure gets itself in a tizzy over every little change to its own world. It's that same ethos that makes it counterintuitive to heavily moderate such a community. It's a little ironic that it's a problem that the "the rebels are being disorderly". Or perhaps the irony is that such a community actually does require moderation.
ikt 13y ago
The two forums you're talking about, the "One was obsessed with post 'quality'" and "Those are the ones with far less concern with 'quality'." Are you talking about elitistjerks and mmo-champion? Just wondering
- RogerL 13y ago
  No, they were for a woodworking hobby (well, hobby for me, profession for the pros). Don't want to be more specific because I really respect all the moderators in the forums.
genwin 13y ago
Pretty much my sentiment too. Noise is good. I endorse a comment by reading halfway through it. Forget about making unpopular viewpoints, no matter politeness or evidence; they're not getting past the pending comments filter.

by RogerL 13y ago

sourceless 13y ago

I think it's for a similar reason sites such as reddit and 4chan (though their topics are often rather lewd) have seen so much success. They're like big melting pots, and all the good stuff floats to the top. Sometimes even the most average of topics can be made interesting by a relative unknown providing some insight. TL;DR you really reduce your chance of finding diamonds if you don't let some dirt through too.

grannyg00se 13y ago

I really appreciate the sentiment here, but at the same time I don't want to see a thread with five hundred comments that say This. Or whatever trendy catch phrase is floating around the mindspace that month. And this system differs from what you describe in that there will be no set group of moderators. The community itself will decide what it wants to see and encourage the type of contribution it deems valid.

king_magic 13y ago
Is this really a problem that HN has, though? I mean, yeah, occasionally, you'll see stuff like that. But anecdotally, I'd say it's definitely the exception. The type of comment you're talking about ("This.") feels like an invented boogeyman used to justify overly harsh censorship by the Party (the HN karma elite). I'm not saying HN is perfect as it is now - it's not - but personally, I feel the a greater problem lies with the quality of submissions rather than the quality of comments. Frankly, I'd rather see Pending Submissions instead of Pending Comments.
virtuabhi 13y ago
No offense but your argument is quite similar to UK's internet censorship law. Hey you don't want CP (in your case "trendy catch phrase"), so we should have a level of censorship (moderated comments). And in no time the system becomes the oppressor of free speech and flow of information. Also please note that the earlier system had upvotes/downvotes for comments. Through votes the community can decide the type of contribution it deems valid.
RogerL 13y ago
We don't have that problem here. Notice my argument was not for anarchy. Back to signal processing for a moment, I used 'noise' loosely. Signals of interest have noise and signal interspersed. It is often trivial to filter out pure noise, such as white noise. In forums, our white noise is 'this' comments, and we trivially filter those out with downvoting, and I suspect it is not particularly hard to write some lisp code to require endorsement for, say, one word or one sentence replies, and prevent the 'post' button from working if the text is 'this' in any variant. But if somebody puts a paragraph or more of time into a reply, well, that is not noise. It is signal. Sure, there may be snarkiness there, or not the most civil tone, but we have doing a good job of handling that on a personal level - in the form of replies such as "RogerL, your post, while interesting, is a bit negative. We strive for better here". I see that all the time (well, not addressed to me, but you know what I mean). That is wonderful. Regardless, there is still a lot of signal there. I have my settings set so that I can see hellbanned people. They are all posting things of value, even the one person with the religious content occasionally posts something worth reading. It is true that there will be no set group of moderators. I don't see how that changes the fundamental equation, but it might. As I said, I haven't formed any solid conclusion, but my gut reaction is that I don't think I feel like participating in endorsement. If we have a quality problem, it is one of submissions, of bad titles, not of 'this' comments.

pfarrell 13y ago

Thank you Roger for a well written post. It captured my sentiments in an analogy about complexity and chaos and value. I've been a reader of HN for a long time. I am not am industry thought leader. I'm one of the nameless horde of programmers that have been integral and famous at companies you've never heard of. I've had an account for over 2200 days, but have less than 250 karma. You know why? I only comment when I have something to say that I think is pertinent. When I do comment, I spend 5-10 minutes getting my wording good enough that I won't waste anyone's time. I will watch how this plays out, but I suspect this will be my final HN comment. This change confirms that PG does not want people like me participating in his forum. I hope I'm proved wrong; HN had been my main RSS feed for like 5 years. There's always lobste.rs

robrenaud 13y ago
If you post high quality content, almost nothing should change. Are you upset because you didn't fit in the somewhat arbitrary initial rule to be included in the set of moderators?
- genwin 13y ago
  People downvote when they disagree. Presumably they won't endorse a pending comment when they disagree, regardless of quality.
deveac 13y ago
>I will watch how this plays out, but I suspect this will be my final HN comment. Might be a better idea to test the system and see how it affects your posts in actuality instead of relying on anecdotes from others though. Just a thought.

waterlesscloud 13y ago

For a community that's all about "disrupting" everything in the world, this place sure gets itself in a tizzy over every little change to its own world. Look, it's just a little change. It's not the end of the world. The impact is likely to be minimal, with only the very worst comments remaining unendorsed. Give it some time before you write up essays about why it's a bad idea. Accept a little disruption.

dredmorbius 13y ago
Mild changes to mechanism or community can have profound influences. Look at the trajectories of MySpace, Slashdot, or Digg, as examples. That said, I'm modestly optimistic for the "pending" policy.
unclebucknasty 13y ago
>For a community that's all about "disrupting" everything in the world, this place sure gets itself in a tizzy over every little change to its own world. It's that same ethos that makes it counterintuitive to heavily moderate such a community. It's a little ironic that it's a problem that the "the rebels are being disorderly". Or perhaps the irony is that such a community actually does require moderation.

ikt 13y ago

The two forums you're talking about, the "One was obsessed with post 'quality'" and "Those are the ones with far less concern with 'quality'." Are you talking about elitistjerks and mmo-champion? Just wondering

RogerL 13y ago
No, they were for a woodworking hobby (well, hobby for me, profession for the pros). Don't want to be more specific because I really respect all the moderators in the forums.

genwin 13y ago

Pretty much my sentiment too. Noise is good. I endorse a comment by reading halfway through it. Forget about making unpopular viewpoints, no matter politeness or evidence; they're not getting past the pending comments filter.