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Yes, it's a big issue here. From the Royal Mint: The Royal Mint regularly conducts surveys to estimate the level of counterfeit £1 coins in the UK. A survey u

Yes, it's a big issue here. From the Royal Mint: The Royal Mint regularly conducts surveys to estimate the level of counterfeit £1 coins in the UK. A survey undertaken in November 2013 found that the rate of counterfeit UK £1 coins in circulation at the time had risen from 2.74% to 3.04%. http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/counterfeit-one-pound-coins http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/counterfeit-one-p... And: The move comes amid concerns about the 30-year old coin's vulnerability to counterfeiting, with an estimated 45 million forgeries in circulation. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26632863 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26632863

danieltillett 13y ago
Are really 3% of all 1 pound coins counterfeit or is this just a case of Gresham's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law
- quasque 13y ago
  Gresham's law doesn't apply as it's ~3% of £1 coins in circulation, not of all.
- bbosh 13y ago
  Yes, I did an experiment tracking which coins I had were fake. I found 10 out of 200.
viraptor 13y ago
Ok, so there's a claim I don't understand: ""One in 30 pound coins is counterfeit, and that costs businesses and the taxpayer millions each year," Mr Osborne continued." - but if they take ~2M of them out of circulation every year (which I assume means only a bit more are added), that means we effectively cancel (using £2.2 trillion M4 money supply in 2010) 0.00009% inflation. Since the current inflation is at ~2%, this should not even register. I mean, for others it doesn't matter who produces the new money to regulate inflation (apart from the problem of someone gaining <£2M from it, but if that's spread between many parties... who cares?). 35M 1£ coins were minted in 2013 anyway - I get an impression that the cost to businesses and the taxpayers would be lower if they just subtracted the predictions of fakes from the next year's minting. Happy to be proven wrong of course (I couldn't find an official estimate of number of coins lost every year, it would be interesting to look at that too) (sources: m3 supply data http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/money-supply-m3 http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/money-supply-..., inflation http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi, minted quantities http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/circulation-coin-mintage-figures/two-pounds-to-20p-issued http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/circulation-coin-...)
- Tycho 13y ago
  Well eventually businesses have to take their money into a bank (or similar), at which point any counterfeits will be removed and destroyed. The business therefore takes the hit and loses income, which means they also pay less tax. For a bus company, for example, I'd imagine it would be a significant problem.
  - viraptor 13y ago
    Are the coins really checked / refused? I mean, I realise why that would happen (to prevent someone simply dumping their fake coins straight into their account), but I never thought the coins go through more than a sorting machine. Maybe there are more checks for businesses taking payments almost entirely in coins... This provides some interesting incentives though... if you can sort the fake/real coins yourself in some way, you can deposit the real ones and use fake ones to pay all small bills (pay utilities, petrol, etc. with coins only)
  - bananas 13y ago
    Bus companies in the UK have big coin counting machines. The total cash at the end of the route is tallied off at the end of a route against the charge sheet from the ticket machine which is printed out. Rejected currency is seen as an operating cost and is handed back in crates to be disposed of. It's also why you see lots of bus companies giving huge discounts on pre-paid cards etc. The annoying bit for is that if they accept a high percentage of bad currency this is tracked and the drivers get disciplined so they tend to try and give it back as change before the end of the route (which is why you'll sometimes see them fumbling around in a pocket for change rather than the coin dispenser fitted to the bus). Therefore always check the change from a bus driver meticulously! Also if you know a bus driver as a friend, watch your change too as the total amount handed back to the mint for disposal is usually less than the amount collected. Some of it gets stolen usually and pocketed by staff as it's still pretty easy to use in pubs etc. Source: I used to write route management and payroll software for bus companies that tracked this sort of thing.
    - pbhjpbhj 13y ago

danieltillett 13y ago

Are really 3% of all 1 pound coins counterfeit or is this just a case of Gresham's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law

quasque 13y ago
Gresham's law doesn't apply as it's ~3% of £1 coins in circulation, not of all.
bbosh 13y ago
Yes, I did an experiment tracking which coins I had were fake. I found 10 out of 200.

viraptor 13y ago

Ok, so there's a claim I don't understand: ""One in 30 pound coins is counterfeit, and that costs businesses and the taxpayer millions each year," Mr Osborne continued." - but if they take ~2M of them out of circulation every year (which I assume means only a bit more are added), that means we effectively cancel (using £2.2 trillion M4 money supply in 2010) 0.00009% inflation. Since the current inflation is at ~2%, this should not even register. I mean, for others it doesn't matter who produces the new money to regulate inflation (apart from the problem of someone gaining <£2M from it, but if that's spread between many parties... who cares?). 35M 1£ coins were minted in 2013 anyway - I get an impression that the cost to businesses and the taxpayers would be lower if they just subtracted the predictions of fakes from the next year's minting. Happy to be proven wrong of course (I couldn't find an official estimate of number of coins lost every year, it would be interesting to look at that too) (sources: m3 supply data http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/money-supply-m3 http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/money-supply-..., inflation http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/inflation-cpi, minted quantities http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/circulation-coin-mintage-figures/two-pounds-to-20p-issued http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/circulation-coin-...)

Tycho 13y ago
Well eventually businesses have to take their money into a bank (or similar), at which point any counterfeits will be removed and destroyed. The business therefore takes the hit and loses income, which means they also pay less tax. For a bus company, for example, I'd imagine it would be a significant problem.
- viraptor 13y ago
  Are the coins really checked / refused? I mean, I realise why that would happen (to prevent someone simply dumping their fake coins straight into their account), but I never thought the coins go through more than a sorting machine. Maybe there are more checks for businesses taking payments almost entirely in coins... This provides some interesting incentives though... if you can sort the fake/real coins yourself in some way, you can deposit the real ones and use fake ones to pay all small bills (pay utilities, petrol, etc. with coins only)
- bananas 13y ago
  Bus companies in the UK have big coin counting machines. The total cash at the end of the route is tallied off at the end of a route against the charge sheet from the ticket machine which is printed out. Rejected currency is seen as an operating cost and is handed back in crates to be disposed of. It's also why you see lots of bus companies giving huge discounts on pre-paid cards etc. The annoying bit for is that if they accept a high percentage of bad currency this is tracked and the drivers get disciplined so they tend to try and give it back as change before the end of the route (which is why you'll sometimes see them fumbling around in a pocket for change rather than the coin dispenser fitted to the bus). Therefore always check the change from a bus driver meticulously! Also if you know a bus driver as a friend, watch your change too as the total amount handed back to the mint for disposal is usually less than the amount collected. Some of it gets stolen usually and pocketed by staff as it's still pretty easy to use in pubs etc. Source: I used to write route management and payroll software for bus companies that tracked this sort of thing.
  - pbhjpbhj 13y ago