4 ms·

I'm reading the comments, and surprised at what's missing. What happened to the business approach? The US government is delivering a large number of products

by adekok 13y ago

I'm reading the comments, and surprised at what's missing. What happened to the business approach? The US government is delivering a large number of products with wildly varying costs, efficiencies, and price points. e.g. unemployment, welfare, food stamps, etc. There is a proposal is to replace those products with only one. The new product fills (mostly) the same need as the existing ones. It will do so at less cost, with more efficiency (less bureaucracy, administration, fraud, etc.). Previous market studies show that it works. So... what's the problem? As a non-US person, this looks a lot like previous discussions on health care. France pays about $10 per person per day for universal health care. The UK pays about $10. Japan pays about $10. Canada pays about $10. The US (before Obomacare) ? About $20, for care that isn't universal. You guys are getting ripped off. Yet the bulk of the population sticks their fingers in their ears, and complains about people who may not "deserve" it. Or they complain about fraud. Who the hell cares about random welfare guy ripping off the system? If you're making over $40K per year, you're getting ripped of by the system. By your system, that you demand to keep in place. You can get rid of the checks and balances, and just absorb the cost of fraud. And as a bonus, a simpler system is harder to game, which leads to more detectable fraud, and therefore less of it. This won't happen in the US for a number of reasons. One of which is that the bureaucracy won't voluntarily reduce. Another (as seen here) an unwillingness to deal with these issues in a business-like manner. Yes, I'm from a socialist country advocating for more capitalism. Not unfettered, but more.

cbhl 13y ago
It's worth noting that Ontario spent a lot of money to introduce photo health ID, because of the fraud under the old system (including people who would border-hop to take advantage of OHIP while living primarily in the US).
orthecreedence 13y ago
> bureaucracy won't voluntarily reduce I think that's one of the big ones. Bureaucracies tend to become living, breathing organisms who's sole purpose is to self-preserve and grow. A basic income in the US would threaten so many different agencies and organizations within (and without) the government, that the response would be fierce, assuming you could even get it anywhere near the government. With people's anti-communist attitude here, it's hard to get any ideas out there that don't fall in line with the current capitalist-imperialist system. Even if something isn't anywhere near communism, you get fox news calling it communism and in a few short minutes half the country hates it. I think the only way this will ever happen in the US is if a bunch of other countries do it first, successfully. Then, after maybe 20 years, the US will implement a shittier, watered down version that accomplishes 1/10 of the original idea but with staggering overhead.
enraged_camel 13y ago
>>Who the hell cares about random welfare guy ripping off the system? If you're making over $40K per year, you're getting ripped of by the system. By your system, that you demand to keep in place. The USA is a deeply individualistic society. For most people, the default mindset is "me vs. those other people," and your average American will do anything (including tolerating a grossly inefficient system) to make sure "those other people" don't steal from "me."
- gamerdonkey 13y ago
  Oddly, you've also just summed up the reasons behind many of our copyright and patent issues.
- chilldream 13y ago
  If anything many people are pushing harder in this direction. For instance, consider the push for mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients even though the places have tried it have discovered that: 1) Almost no one fails them 2) They cost more money than they save (in cancelled benefits)
wozniacki 13y ago
Let us not delude ourselves into thinking any healthcare system is self-contained and self-sustaining, equipped to deal with all the needs of its citizenry. Most European nations ( and Canada, Australia & New Zealand ) are great at dispensing - what can be termed as - "subsistence medicine." Most ailments, procedures and surgeries are handled quite well, although - it has to be said - a tad frugally. ( It is not uncommon for the doctor to under-prescribe medications or opt for a less cost-prohibitive option over another even when the situation could be better dealt with, with a more exhaustive course of prophylaxis) Plenty of Canadians including the Premier of New Foundland have opted and continue to opt for minimally invasive procedures ( as well as convoluted surgeries ) to be done in the United States, simply because the U.S. is better equipped with the resources and the doctors to deal with such cases. "This is my heart, it's my health, it's my choice." With these words, Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams defended his decision to hop the border and go under the knife for heart surgery in Florida. The minimally invasive mitral valve surgery he needed is not available in Newfoundland, he told his province's NTV News channel in the first part of an interview aired last night.[1] For instance, some Canadian patients who are tired of waiting for procedures in their country's national health system come to Michigan hospitals. [2] Even the richest of the rich pick the United States over say European destinations for their medical treatments. The king (Abdullah of Saudi Arabia), who is 86 years old, was in town for surgery at New York Presbyterian Hospital on Nov. 24.[3] [1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/its-my-health-its-my-choice-danny-williams-says/article4311853/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/its-my-health-i... [2] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/reverse-medical-tourism-points-up-pluses-and-minuses-of-us-healthcare/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/reverse-medical-tourism-points-u... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/business/14road.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/business/14road.html?_r=0
- stcredzero 13y ago
  So let's charge these rich people coming over here for premium care a bit extra and redistribute subsistence care to those traditionally not covered.
  - sans-serif 13y ago

by adekok 13y ago

cbhl 13y ago

It's worth noting that Ontario spent a lot of money to introduce photo health ID, because of the fraud under the old system (including people who would border-hop to take advantage of OHIP while living primarily in the US).

orthecreedence 13y ago

> bureaucracy won't voluntarily reduce I think that's one of the big ones. Bureaucracies tend to become living, breathing organisms who's sole purpose is to self-preserve and grow. A basic income in the US would threaten so many different agencies and organizations within (and without) the government, that the response would be fierce, assuming you could even get it anywhere near the government. With people's anti-communist attitude here, it's hard to get any ideas out there that don't fall in line with the current capitalist-imperialist system. Even if something isn't anywhere near communism, you get fox news calling it communism and in a few short minutes half the country hates it. I think the only way this will ever happen in the US is if a bunch of other countries do it first, successfully. Then, after maybe 20 years, the US will implement a shittier, watered down version that accomplishes 1/10 of the original idea but with staggering overhead.

enraged_camel 13y ago

>>Who the hell cares about random welfare guy ripping off the system? If you're making over $40K per year, you're getting ripped of by the system. By your system, that you demand to keep in place. The USA is a deeply individualistic society. For most people, the default mindset is "me vs. those other people," and your average American will do anything (including tolerating a grossly inefficient system) to make sure "those other people" don't steal from "me."

gamerdonkey 13y ago
Oddly, you've also just summed up the reasons behind many of our copyright and patent issues.
chilldream 13y ago
If anything many people are pushing harder in this direction. For instance, consider the push for mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients even though the places have tried it have discovered that: 1) Almost no one fails them 2) They cost more money than they save (in cancelled benefits)

wozniacki 13y ago

Let us not delude ourselves into thinking any healthcare system is self-contained and self-sustaining, equipped to deal with all the needs of its citizenry. Most European nations ( and Canada, Australia & New Zealand ) are great at dispensing - what can be termed as - "subsistence medicine." Most ailments, procedures and surgeries are handled quite well, although - it has to be said - a tad frugally. ( It is not uncommon for the doctor to under-prescribe medications or opt for a less cost-prohibitive option over another even when the situation could be better dealt with, with a more exhaustive course of prophylaxis) Plenty of Canadians including the Premier of New Foundland have opted and continue to opt for minimally invasive procedures ( as well as convoluted surgeries ) to be done in the United States, simply because the U.S. is better equipped with the resources and the doctors to deal with such cases. "This is my heart, it's my health, it's my choice." With these words, Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams defended his decision to hop the border and go under the knife for heart surgery in Florida. The minimally invasive mitral valve surgery he needed is not available in Newfoundland, he told his province's NTV News channel in the first part of an interview aired last night.[1] For instance, some Canadian patients who are tired of waiting for procedures in their country's national health system come to Michigan hospitals. [2] Even the richest of the rich pick the United States over say European destinations for their medical treatments. The king (Abdullah of Saudi Arabia), who is 86 years old, was in town for surgery at New York Presbyterian Hospital on Nov. 24.[3] [1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/its-my-health-its-my-choice-danny-williams-says/article4311853/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/its-my-health-i... [2] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/reverse-medical-tourism-points-up-pluses-and-minuses-of-us-healthcare/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/reverse-medical-tourism-points-u... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/business/14road.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/business/14road.html?_r=0

stcredzero 13y ago
So let's charge these rich people coming over here for premium care a bit extra and redistribute subsistence care to those traditionally not covered.
- sans-serif 13y ago