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Expatriates Stack Exchange

73 points by nsaparanoid 13y ago

rmc 13y ago
Nice wealthy people from nice rich countries are "Expats". People from poor countries are "immigrants". It's an interesting language hack society developed.
- jzwinck 13y ago
  Within the expat community I think there is a different distinction. Expats (to me, and to some of the people I know who use that term to describe themselves) are on a temporary assignment ("secondment") for work. People who move to another country on their own, without a company transfer, and/or who intend to stay there indefinitely, are not expats. There are also plenty of cases where an expat becomes "localized" and stays somewhere longer, but is no longer considered an expat by their company, and perhaps no longer by their local friends. Different people use the term in different ways, unfortunately including what you said. But the above is how I look at it.
  - nbudden 13y ago
    Depends on your area I guess. In North-Eastern Asia my experience is that 'expats' refers to those who have moved for good, and anyone staying temporarily is just a 'foreigner'.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      My dongbei experience has it that all foreigners are referred to as expats if they are working for a real company and not just teaching English...but expat is actually a technical term that our HR uses to distinguish between packaged employees (many of whom are Chinese with green cards or us citizenship) and random locally hired foreigners (who have no packages and are more likely not Chinese).
  - TillE 13y ago
    > People who move to another country on their own, without a company transfer, and/or who intend to stay there indefinitely, are not expats. That first part is a really strange criterion which I've never seen before. As for staying indefinitely, that's why I don't necessarily consider myself an immigrant - I've been here for six years, but the future is always uncertain. I might have a different opinion if Germany allowed dual citizenship through naturalization, but they don't.
    - Dirty-flow 13y ago
      It's allowed but not for all nationalities.
  - rmc 13y ago
    Well, sure within the expat community, I'm sure they'd love to point out they aren't like them. Y'know, Them, the bad ones. Nonononono, we're the good ones.
  - camus2 13y ago
    > who intend to stay there indefinitely, are not expats. because you think immigrants want to stay indefinitely? why because they are poor and you're rich?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - dfc 13y ago
    The corporate component of your expat definition appears to preclude writers and artists from being expats.
    - jzwinck 13y ago
      If a writer is freelancing and moves somewhere on a temporary visa with the intention of leaving in a year or three, I'd probably call them an expat, sure. Obviously there's no bright line, and different people use the term for different things (even crypto-hate speech, as evidenced by other commenters in this thread!).
      - dalke 13y ago
        I suspect dfc refers in part to famous expats like Gertrude Stein, Henry James, and John Singer Sargent? They were part of the American expat community 100 years ago, and all lived in Europe for decades. Obviously language changes, but doing a search for "expat artist" or "expat writer" easily finds things like: http://juliedawnfox.com/2013/07/05/expat-artists-algarve/ http://juliedawnfox.com/2013/07/05/expat-artists-algarve/ - a British expat who lives full-time in Portugal http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2014/02/27/expat-artist-enjoys-sweet-smell-of-success/ http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2014/02/27/expat-arti... - another British expat, 18 years in Spain http://www.theyucatantimes.com/2013/11/meet-expat-writers-living-in-yucatan/ http://www.theyucatantimes.com/2013/11/meet-expat-writers-li... - various expat writers in Yucatan, including a Canadian who moved there in the 1970s for love Also, take a look at the profiles at http://www.expatinfodesk.com/our-authors/ http://www.expatinfodesk.com/our-authors/ . While some moved because of work, others say things like "Her relocation to Barcelona happened almost by accident, after she and her daughter set off on a European adventure. The adventure turned into a settlement and the pair are now officially expatriates - at least for the time being." and "... came to Los Angeles originally as a student, with an intention of going home after completing her sociology studies in college. Now she finds herself still living in Los Angeles after a couple of decades" Thus, while you can say "the above is how I look at it", you cannot really argue "Within the expat community I think there is a different distinction ... ", because the expat community doesn't seems to agree with your corporate, short-term qualifications.
  - TelmoMenezes 13y ago
    Sure, this is the sort of BS people use to post-rationalise the distinction between "immigrant" and "expat". The (not so hidden) truth is that it is meant to convey a status distinction that many people are too hypocritical to acknowledge, and that has a lot to do with skin color and country of origin.
    - bradleysmith 13y ago
      I grew up in Saudi Arabia, where my family had no inclination nor legal standing to gain citizenship. We were clearly, and regularly identified as expatriates. In Dhahran, there were a large number of foreign workers from Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and Nepal, who performed a variety of menial labors. These laborers would often have their passports held by Saudi nationals, go periods without pay with little food, or live without provided housing. They were clearly and regularly regarded by many in that town as 'lesser' in some degree or another, most likely because of their countries of origin. Although some would call them 'migrant workers' or 'immigrants', these people were also referred to as 'expats' by the majority of the expatriates I knew, and their employers. I distinctly remember someone correcting me when referring to them as immigrants. This is an argument over semantics, but not an insignificant one. you're claiming a particular word that I have used throughout my life to identify a great many people is an inherently bigoted instance of double-speak that masks the differentiation between classes of countries people come from. the truth is, "expatriate" is a respectful way to refer to people working outside of their own country. What the word is "meant to convey" is as amalgamous as the people that decide to use it, as is true for all words. If you see it is a differentiator between have-and have-not country origins, fine, but you are putting quite a bit of stock in someone's language choice reflecting a particularly heinous belief or acceptance. I assure you that there are a great many people that do not use this word as you have described it.
      - TelmoMenezes 13y ago
        Thanks, that is interesting. I should have added the caveat that I'm speaking from a western perspective (and the irony isn't lost on me that I missed this while making claims about xenophobia :).
  - abrugsch 13y ago
    As long as the USA makes me file a tax return and require prying into my bank accounts (FACTA/FBAR etc) when my income is entirely earned and spent in the UK, then I'm an "Expat", despite having lived here for nearly 30 years and the US gov doesn't consider me American 'enough' for my son to be allowed US citizenship...
- dfc 13y ago
  I always thought the distinction between immigrant and expat was "desire of citizenship." Immigrants want to become citizens of the new country and expats do not.
  - halostatue 13y ago
    I consider myself both an expat and an immigrant, as a U.S./Canada dual citizen (I immigrated to Canada from the U.S.). Until I give up my U.S. citizenship, I am an expatriate from the U.S. I am also an immigrant to Canada. Other immigrants I know do not to have a problem with me calling myself an immigrant. I don't try to equate my experience with theirs—I had it easy. I am disgusted with what the federal conservative government has been doing to immigration and citizenship in the decade since I got my Canadian citizenship, because it makes it harder for people different than me to immigrate and become productive citizens. I'm disappointed that there has been no substantial effort made to unify certifications for doctors, engineers, teachers, etc. across the provinces and territories because we have too many doctors, engineers, teachers, etc. (usually from non-European countries) driving taxis or performing janitorial work. It's a horrific waste of human talent.
- spindritf 13y ago
  If a defining quality of your migration is moving away from your country, then you're an expat, or refugee in case of duress. Someone bored with the US moving to SE Asia is an expat. It's likely that they'll go elsewhere afterwards or come back. When a defining quality of your migration is moving to a country, you're an immigrant. Someone who wants to live in the EU is an immigrant. It's likely that they will stay there indefinitely. While people from the west are usually wealthier, many expats move specifically to escape the high cost of living.
  - rmc 13y ago
    That's not really a good definition. If you're a USAian moving to avoid high cost of living, and moving to SE Asia for the low cost, then why can't we say you're moving away from an area (due to high cost of living), and you have the desire to live in a region (SE Asia), and this clearly makes you an immigrant?
    - spindritf 13y ago
      Because you don't have a desire to live in Vietnam. Just "somewhere warm and cheap where I can teach English for a living," even simply "not US," or "the farther away from my psycho family, the better." And perhaps Thailand next month, or back home in the summer, or Bali once you save up for a year's lease.
      - rmc 13y ago
        So someone who moves from say Syria, to Cork, Ireland, is looking just for "somewhere politically safe where I won't be shot at", even simply "not Syria", rather than having a desire to live in Cork City? Wouldn't they be an expat then?
        spindritf 13y ago
        Political violence certainly counts as duress, so, like I wrote in the very first sentence, they'd be a refugee. And, unlike the informal immigrant/expat distinction, that is even recognized by legal systems in modern countries. We treat people seeking asylum differently than those who are just moving because of climate or job opportunities.
- tallanvor 13y ago
  This is definitely not true. An immigrant comes to a new country with plans of making it their home permanently. --They emigrate from their home country with no plans to ever live there again. An expat is someone living outside of their home country, either for work, school, or sometimes due to family - or even because they decided to retire there - but who don't plan on becoming a citizen where they live. Case in point: I met a guy from Mexico working in Greece as a cook for the Mexican embassy. He's an expat. I have coworkers from Sri Lanka who came for the job. Some of them might end up staying, others definitely plan on moving back home. They're all expats right now. People from offices in other parts of the world who come for short term stays (1 - 6 months) would also be considered expats, no matter what country they normally work in.
  - dalke 13y ago
    Many Mexicans come to the US to work temporarily, make good money, then go home to their families. Some of these do so without permission of the US government. Yet many call them "illegal immigrants" even for those who don't want to settle. Is it your belief that the more correct term for these people is "illegal expats"? If you use the term "illegal immigrants", will you instead switch to "illegal immigrants and expats"? Looking around now, Google finds only 150 or so pages using "illegal expat", and the vast majority concern Saudi Arabia or neighboring states.
- patio11 13y ago
  I called myself an immigrant once in casual conversation. The people I was talking with -- who, ironically, would almost certainly describe themselves as pro-immigrant -- blew up at me for "appropriating the immigrant experience."
  - mercurial 13y ago
    What does that even mean?
    - patio11 13y ago
      I'd interpret it to mean "White men don't get to claim minority group status!" (I understand there exist political worldviews under which membership in a minority group is occasionally a useful thing to have and under which "inappropriately" claiming it is anathema, but to be clear, I wasn't intentionally trying to troll anyone with the observation.)
      - dalke 13y ago
        I did some contracting work for a company in Vienna for about 5 weeks. (I am a US citizen living Sweden.) I stayed in a business apartment. I mentioned the name of the area to one of the employees at the company. He commented that I might not like it because there are a lot of immigrants. I pointed out that I should fit in then, since I'm an immigrant. In this context, I knew that he meant "immigrant" as shorthand for "cultural minorities" (in this case, mostly from the Middle East), and I was being deliberately naive to help prevent expropriating the term "immigrant" in that fashion.
    - rmc 13y ago
      Imagine someone with ginger hair saying "Oh it's just like being gay and being bullied for who you are". That person is trying to claim that they have it just as bad as groups who have it bad. I suspect the person thought patio11 was claiming to be suffering horrible hardship due to being an immigrant Now, patio11 is an immigrant/expat (being a USAian living in Japan), and who knows perhaps in Japan there are disadvantages/hurdles by looking like a white dude. So I have no idea if it was/is right for someone to say that to him. I'll scratch it up to American social justice warriors having the common mistake of thinking everything is like the USA.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  People like me from developed countries working in developing countries without packages are called half-pats.
- simias 13y ago
  To me at least being an "expat" is a choice, being an immigrant is a necessity. That's how I choose to define those terms at least, but of course the line is blurry.
- jasonkester 13y ago
  "Immigrant" sort of suggests "immigration" as being part of the deal though, right? Take me for example. If I was working on getting my French citizenship with the hope of living here indefinitely with my new French passport and (one day) French citizen grandchildren, I'd be an immigrant. But I'm not. I'm an American citizen holding an American passport who just happens to spend half his time living here. They actually have a term for that. It's "Expat".
  - dalke 13y ago
    The difficulty is that "immigration" means many things. It can mean "to settle", with the emphasis in permanence. But it's not restricted to that. Consider this quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_law : > Immigration regulation is the control of the people, and their numbers, who may enter a nation's sovereign territory. It applies both to persons seeking to live and work in a particular nation (or part of it) and tourists, persons on layover due to travel issues, and those wishing to study or otherwise make use of a country's facilities. Here you see "immigration" used with a wider meaning than what you used. Consider Mexican citizens who come to the US for short-term employment but without specific permission from the US government. Many use the term "illegal immigrants", even though for those who have no desire to live permanently in the US, and are only in the country to make money. In your case, "half his time" probably means 180 days or less, and as a US national you are exempt from a Schengen visa? There many other terms for that, including "tourist". ("sportspeople playing in championships" and "artist on tour" are a few alternatives). When does a "tourist" become an "expat"? If you were to stay longer than 3 months at a time, then you would need a long-stay visa, and "must, on arriving in France, register with the French Immigration and Integration Office (OFII) or, in some cases, apply to the relevant prefecture for a residence permit" - http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/coming-to-france/getting-a-visa/article/general-information-for-foreign#sommaire_2 http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/coming-to-france/getting-a-... . See the "immigration" in the name of the office?
jfoster 13y ago
It's hard to imagine how it could survive. Even the Startups site (supposedly) didn't meet the StackExchange criteria because it only averaged 4.9 questions/day: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6243/startup-business http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6243/startup-busin... StackExchange replaced Q&A sites that were completely backward in their approach (eg. requiring signups to see answers), but StackExchange itself is becoming a little bit backward. Questions that might involve some healthy discussion rather than a straightforward answer get shut down too easily, and they forfeit decent sites (eg. Startups, after 3 years!) just because they didn't meet some arbitrary minimum activity criteria. The data dump download doesn't even work, so now there's just a tonne of information that people contributed which is lost. (edit: data dump download actually does work, but it's still such a waste to discard the momentum, Google indexing, etc.)
- jzwinck 13y ago
  In what way does the data dump download not work? I'm no one who can fix it, but I'm curious if you have any more details which might shine more light on what could be a serious issue in need of fixing (given my understanding of the commitments made by the StackExchange folks, though I may not be up to date there).
  - jfoster 13y ago
    Apologies - Chrome was initially giving me an error (I don't recall which type, except that it was suggesting visiting sstatic.net instead) when I was trying to download it.
- po 13y ago
  I think comparing it to the startups one is a good example of why it could work. There are plenty of places to go to get information about startups. The places you can go to get information about government policies/procedures/etc… is a lot like searching for Q&A sites that were completely backward in their approach. You could argue there's not a big enough audience… but I think the utility of it is there.
- fabian2k 13y ago
davidw 13y ago
My instincts are that country->country specific forums are more valuable. Americans in Italy, like me, or Australians in Germany, or Canadians in Spain, or whatever. Because a lot of the value in these things is helping navigate the local bureaucracy, culture, and lifestyle for someone who is new to it.
- mirod1 13y ago
  tags should help, but after browsing the site, I am not sure they do. Stackoverflow works well because it is really easy to scan only questions about the topics I am interested about. The tags are quite precise and there is general consensus on what they should be. I look at the "perl" tag, often, or at the "XML" one... voilà! With a "soft" subject, like expats, it's harder to filter interesting questions. It doesn't naturally lead to accepted categories, and most of the info I would be interested in wouldn't fit in a single one. So either the site stays low-volume, and I can scan all questions, and rarely find one that I am interested in. Or it becomes successful and chances are that I will miss the threads I would have liked to read. Bother...
  - tinkertim 13y ago
    The site _just_ came out of private beta, so tags are a bit of a mess. We're cleaning them up now, and working on conventions for location / country tags, which do make narrowing questions much simpler.
alandarev 13y ago
What's up with stackexchange menu bar? It is in unknown to me language (if language at all). But if I view the source code or copy, I get plain English, what the hell? Example: http://i.imgur.com/Gcyrwpe.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Gcyrwpe.jpg
- tinkertim 13y ago
  You have any browser extensions that might be misbehaving? (I work for Stack Exchange). Nothing on our side could be sending that to you.
  - alandarev 13y ago
    Using other stackexchange sites is fine. I am no longer able to validate whether addon-less browser would work, as the issue is mysteriously resolved now.
    - tinkertim 13y ago
      I blame Cthulhu. Mystery solved.
yannis 13y ago
I have been both an "expat" and an immigrant (UAE, Qatar, Libya). Here is the difference. As an "expat" I never intended to stay in the country for long. As a young immigrant I went to South Africa settled bought a house had kids and businesses and eventually became a citizen.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Hansi 13y ago
Very nice, like it. Already came across some helpful questions and answers.
tobylane 13y ago
I like to read /top/month or /top/year/ of many subreddits. With StackExchange there is only top, and I can't see a way to come back a long time later and see what's new in highly liked questions. Are there any third party sites that cater to this? Relevant because I imagine I'll read the top questions now, and again in a year with many questions coming up both times.

73 points by nsaparanoid 13y ago

rmc 13y ago

Nice wealthy people from nice rich countries are "Expats". People from poor countries are "immigrants". It's an interesting language hack society developed.

jzwinck 13y ago
Within the expat community I think there is a different distinction. Expats (to me, and to some of the people I know who use that term to describe themselves) are on a temporary assignment ("secondment") for work. People who move to another country on their own, without a company transfer, and/or who intend to stay there indefinitely, are not expats. There are also plenty of cases where an expat becomes "localized" and stays somewhere longer, but is no longer considered an expat by their company, and perhaps no longer by their local friends. Different people use the term in different ways, unfortunately including what you said. But the above is how I look at it.
- nbudden 13y ago
  Depends on your area I guess. In North-Eastern Asia my experience is that 'expats' refers to those who have moved for good, and anyone staying temporarily is just a 'foreigner'.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    My dongbei experience has it that all foreigners are referred to as expats if they are working for a real company and not just teaching English...but expat is actually a technical term that our HR uses to distinguish between packaged employees (many of whom are Chinese with green cards or us citizenship) and random locally hired foreigners (who have no packages and are more likely not Chinese).
- TillE 13y ago
  > People who move to another country on their own, without a company transfer, and/or who intend to stay there indefinitely, are not expats. That first part is a really strange criterion which I've never seen before. As for staying indefinitely, that's why I don't necessarily consider myself an immigrant - I've been here for six years, but the future is always uncertain. I might have a different opinion if Germany allowed dual citizenship through naturalization, but they don't.
  - Dirty-flow 13y ago
    It's allowed but not for all nationalities.
- rmc 13y ago
  Well, sure within the expat community, I'm sure they'd love to point out they aren't like them. Y'know, Them, the bad ones. Nonononono, we're the good ones.
- camus2 13y ago
  > who intend to stay there indefinitely, are not expats. because you think immigrants want to stay indefinitely? why because they are poor and you're rich?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- dfc 13y ago
  The corporate component of your expat definition appears to preclude writers and artists from being expats.
  - jzwinck 13y ago
    If a writer is freelancing and moves somewhere on a temporary visa with the intention of leaving in a year or three, I'd probably call them an expat, sure. Obviously there's no bright line, and different people use the term for different things (even crypto-hate speech, as evidenced by other commenters in this thread!).
    - dalke 13y ago
      I suspect dfc refers in part to famous expats like Gertrude Stein, Henry James, and John Singer Sargent? They were part of the American expat community 100 years ago, and all lived in Europe for decades. Obviously language changes, but doing a search for "expat artist" or "expat writer" easily finds things like: http://juliedawnfox.com/2013/07/05/expat-artists-algarve/ http://juliedawnfox.com/2013/07/05/expat-artists-algarve/ - a British expat who lives full-time in Portugal http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2014/02/27/expat-artist-enjoys-sweet-smell-of-success/ http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2014/02/27/expat-arti... - another British expat, 18 years in Spain http://www.theyucatantimes.com/2013/11/meet-expat-writers-living-in-yucatan/ http://www.theyucatantimes.com/2013/11/meet-expat-writers-li... - various expat writers in Yucatan, including a Canadian who moved there in the 1970s for love Also, take a look at the profiles at http://www.expatinfodesk.com/our-authors/ http://www.expatinfodesk.com/our-authors/ . While some moved because of work, others say things like "Her relocation to Barcelona happened almost by accident, after she and her daughter set off on a European adventure. The adventure turned into a settlement and the pair are now officially expatriates - at least for the time being." and "... came to Los Angeles originally as a student, with an intention of going home after completing her sociology studies in college. Now she finds herself still living in Los Angeles after a couple of decades" Thus, while you can say "the above is how I look at it", you cannot really argue "Within the expat community I think there is a different distinction ... ", because the expat community doesn't seems to agree with your corporate, short-term qualifications.
- TelmoMenezes 13y ago
  Sure, this is the sort of BS people use to post-rationalise the distinction between "immigrant" and "expat". The (not so hidden) truth is that it is meant to convey a status distinction that many people are too hypocritical to acknowledge, and that has a lot to do with skin color and country of origin.
  - bradleysmith 13y ago
    I grew up in Saudi Arabia, where my family had no inclination nor legal standing to gain citizenship. We were clearly, and regularly identified as expatriates. In Dhahran, there were a large number of foreign workers from Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and Nepal, who performed a variety of menial labors. These laborers would often have their passports held by Saudi nationals, go periods without pay with little food, or live without provided housing. They were clearly and regularly regarded by many in that town as 'lesser' in some degree or another, most likely because of their countries of origin. Although some would call them 'migrant workers' or 'immigrants', these people were also referred to as 'expats' by the majority of the expatriates I knew, and their employers. I distinctly remember someone correcting me when referring to them as immigrants. This is an argument over semantics, but not an insignificant one. you're claiming a particular word that I have used throughout my life to identify a great many people is an inherently bigoted instance of double-speak that masks the differentiation between classes of countries people come from. the truth is, "expatriate" is a respectful way to refer to people working outside of their own country. What the word is "meant to convey" is as amalgamous as the people that decide to use it, as is true for all words. If you see it is a differentiator between have-and have-not country origins, fine, but you are putting quite a bit of stock in someone's language choice reflecting a particularly heinous belief or acceptance. I assure you that there are a great many people that do not use this word as you have described it.
    - TelmoMenezes 13y ago
      Thanks, that is interesting. I should have added the caveat that I'm speaking from a western perspective (and the irony isn't lost on me that I missed this while making claims about xenophobia :).
- abrugsch 13y ago
  As long as the USA makes me file a tax return and require prying into my bank accounts (FACTA/FBAR etc) when my income is entirely earned and spent in the UK, then I'm an "Expat", despite having lived here for nearly 30 years and the US gov doesn't consider me American 'enough' for my son to be allowed US citizenship...
dfc 13y ago
I always thought the distinction between immigrant and expat was "desire of citizenship." Immigrants want to become citizens of the new country and expats do not.
- halostatue 13y ago
  I consider myself both an expat and an immigrant, as a U.S./Canada dual citizen (I immigrated to Canada from the U.S.). Until I give up my U.S. citizenship, I am an expatriate from the U.S. I am also an immigrant to Canada. Other immigrants I know do not to have a problem with me calling myself an immigrant. I don't try to equate my experience with theirs—I had it easy. I am disgusted with what the federal conservative government has been doing to immigration and citizenship in the decade since I got my Canadian citizenship, because it makes it harder for people different than me to immigrate and become productive citizens. I'm disappointed that there has been no substantial effort made to unify certifications for doctors, engineers, teachers, etc. across the provinces and territories because we have too many doctors, engineers, teachers, etc. (usually from non-European countries) driving taxis or performing janitorial work. It's a horrific waste of human talent.
spindritf 13y ago
If a defining quality of your migration is moving away from your country, then you're an expat, or refugee in case of duress. Someone bored with the US moving to SE Asia is an expat. It's likely that they'll go elsewhere afterwards or come back. When a defining quality of your migration is moving to a country, you're an immigrant. Someone who wants to live in the EU is an immigrant. It's likely that they will stay there indefinitely. While people from the west are usually wealthier, many expats move specifically to escape the high cost of living.
- rmc 13y ago
  That's not really a good definition. If you're a USAian moving to avoid high cost of living, and moving to SE Asia for the low cost, then why can't we say you're moving away from an area (due to high cost of living), and you have the desire to live in a region (SE Asia), and this clearly makes you an immigrant?
  - spindritf 13y ago
    Because you don't have a desire to live in Vietnam. Just "somewhere warm and cheap where I can teach English for a living," even simply "not US," or "the farther away from my psycho family, the better." And perhaps Thailand next month, or back home in the summer, or Bali once you save up for a year's lease.
    - rmc 13y ago
      So someone who moves from say Syria, to Cork, Ireland, is looking just for "somewhere politically safe where I won't be shot at", even simply "not Syria", rather than having a desire to live in Cork City? Wouldn't they be an expat then?
      - spindritf 13y ago
        Political violence certainly counts as duress, so, like I wrote in the very first sentence, they'd be a refugee. And, unlike the informal immigrant/expat distinction, that is even recognized by legal systems in modern countries. We treat people seeking asylum differently than those who are just moving because of climate or job opportunities.
tallanvor 13y ago
This is definitely not true. An immigrant comes to a new country with plans of making it their home permanently. --They emigrate from their home country with no plans to ever live there again. An expat is someone living outside of their home country, either for work, school, or sometimes due to family - or even because they decided to retire there - but who don't plan on becoming a citizen where they live. Case in point: I met a guy from Mexico working in Greece as a cook for the Mexican embassy. He's an expat. I have coworkers from Sri Lanka who came for the job. Some of them might end up staying, others definitely plan on moving back home. They're all expats right now. People from offices in other parts of the world who come for short term stays (1 - 6 months) would also be considered expats, no matter what country they normally work in.
- dalke 13y ago
  Many Mexicans come to the US to work temporarily, make good money, then go home to their families. Some of these do so without permission of the US government. Yet many call them "illegal immigrants" even for those who don't want to settle. Is it your belief that the more correct term for these people is "illegal expats"? If you use the term "illegal immigrants", will you instead switch to "illegal immigrants and expats"? Looking around now, Google finds only 150 or so pages using "illegal expat", and the vast majority concern Saudi Arabia or neighboring states.
patio11 13y ago
I called myself an immigrant once in casual conversation. The people I was talking with -- who, ironically, would almost certainly describe themselves as pro-immigrant -- blew up at me for "appropriating the immigrant experience."
- mercurial 13y ago
  What does that even mean?
  - patio11 13y ago
    I'd interpret it to mean "White men don't get to claim minority group status!" (I understand there exist political worldviews under which membership in a minority group is occasionally a useful thing to have and under which "inappropriately" claiming it is anathema, but to be clear, I wasn't intentionally trying to troll anyone with the observation.)
    - dalke 13y ago
      I did some contracting work for a company in Vienna for about 5 weeks. (I am a US citizen living Sweden.) I stayed in a business apartment. I mentioned the name of the area to one of the employees at the company. He commented that I might not like it because there are a lot of immigrants. I pointed out that I should fit in then, since I'm an immigrant. In this context, I knew that he meant "immigrant" as shorthand for "cultural minorities" (in this case, mostly from the Middle East), and I was being deliberately naive to help prevent expropriating the term "immigrant" in that fashion.
  - rmc 13y ago
    Imagine someone with ginger hair saying "Oh it's just like being gay and being bullied for who you are". That person is trying to claim that they have it just as bad as groups who have it bad. I suspect the person thought patio11 was claiming to be suffering horrible hardship due to being an immigrant Now, patio11 is an immigrant/expat (being a USAian living in Japan), and who knows perhaps in Japan there are disadvantages/hurdles by looking like a white dude. So I have no idea if it was/is right for someone to say that to him. I'll scratch it up to American social justice warriors having the common mistake of thinking everything is like the USA.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
People like me from developed countries working in developing countries without packages are called half-pats.
simias 13y ago
To me at least being an "expat" is a choice, being an immigrant is a necessity. That's how I choose to define those terms at least, but of course the line is blurry.
jasonkester 13y ago
"Immigrant" sort of suggests "immigration" as being part of the deal though, right? Take me for example. If I was working on getting my French citizenship with the hope of living here indefinitely with my new French passport and (one day) French citizen grandchildren, I'd be an immigrant. But I'm not. I'm an American citizen holding an American passport who just happens to spend half his time living here. They actually have a term for that. It's "Expat".
- dalke 13y ago
  The difficulty is that "immigration" means many things. It can mean "to settle", with the emphasis in permanence. But it's not restricted to that. Consider this quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_law : > Immigration regulation is the control of the people, and their numbers, who may enter a nation's sovereign territory. It applies both to persons seeking to live and work in a particular nation (or part of it) and tourists, persons on layover due to travel issues, and those wishing to study or otherwise make use of a country's facilities. Here you see "immigration" used with a wider meaning than what you used. Consider Mexican citizens who come to the US for short-term employment but without specific permission from the US government. Many use the term "illegal immigrants", even though for those who have no desire to live permanently in the US, and are only in the country to make money. In your case, "half his time" probably means 180 days or less, and as a US national you are exempt from a Schengen visa? There many other terms for that, including "tourist". ("sportspeople playing in championships" and "artist on tour" are a few alternatives). When does a "tourist" become an "expat"? If you were to stay longer than 3 months at a time, then you would need a long-stay visa, and "must, on arriving in France, register with the French Immigration and Integration Office (OFII) or, in some cases, apply to the relevant prefecture for a residence permit" - http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/coming-to-france/getting-a-visa/article/general-information-for-foreign#sommaire_2 http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/coming-to-france/getting-a-... . See the "immigration" in the name of the office?

jfoster 13y ago

It's hard to imagine how it could survive. Even the Startups site (supposedly) didn't meet the StackExchange criteria because it only averaged 4.9 questions/day: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6243/startup-business http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6243/startup-busin... StackExchange replaced Q&A sites that were completely backward in their approach (eg. requiring signups to see answers), but StackExchange itself is becoming a little bit backward. Questions that might involve some healthy discussion rather than a straightforward answer get shut down too easily, and they forfeit decent sites (eg. Startups, after 3 years!) just because they didn't meet some arbitrary minimum activity criteria. The data dump download doesn't even work, so now there's just a tonne of information that people contributed which is lost. (edit: data dump download actually does work, but it's still such a waste to discard the momentum, Google indexing, etc.)

jzwinck 13y ago
In what way does the data dump download not work? I'm no one who can fix it, but I'm curious if you have any more details which might shine more light on what could be a serious issue in need of fixing (given my understanding of the commitments made by the StackExchange folks, though I may not be up to date there).
- jfoster 13y ago
  Apologies - Chrome was initially giving me an error (I don't recall which type, except that it was suggesting visiting sstatic.net instead) when I was trying to download it.
po 13y ago
I think comparing it to the startups one is a good example of why it could work. There are plenty of places to go to get information about startups. The places you can go to get information about government policies/procedures/etc… is a lot like searching for Q&A sites that were completely backward in their approach. You could argue there's not a big enough audience… but I think the utility of it is there.
fabian2k 13y ago

davidw 13y ago

My instincts are that country->country specific forums are more valuable. Americans in Italy, like me, or Australians in Germany, or Canadians in Spain, or whatever. Because a lot of the value in these things is helping navigate the local bureaucracy, culture, and lifestyle for someone who is new to it.

mirod1 13y ago
tags should help, but after browsing the site, I am not sure they do. Stackoverflow works well because it is really easy to scan only questions about the topics I am interested about. The tags are quite precise and there is general consensus on what they should be. I look at the "perl" tag, often, or at the "XML" one... voilà! With a "soft" subject, like expats, it's harder to filter interesting questions. It doesn't naturally lead to accepted categories, and most of the info I would be interested in wouldn't fit in a single one. So either the site stays low-volume, and I can scan all questions, and rarely find one that I am interested in. Or it becomes successful and chances are that I will miss the threads I would have liked to read. Bother...
- tinkertim 13y ago
  The site _just_ came out of private beta, so tags are a bit of a mess. We're cleaning them up now, and working on conventions for location / country tags, which do make narrowing questions much simpler.

alandarev 13y ago

What's up with stackexchange menu bar? It is in unknown to me language (if language at all). But if I view the source code or copy, I get plain English, what the hell? Example: http://i.imgur.com/Gcyrwpe.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Gcyrwpe.jpg

tinkertim 13y ago
You have any browser extensions that might be misbehaving? (I work for Stack Exchange). Nothing on our side could be sending that to you.
- alandarev 13y ago
  Using other stackexchange sites is fine. I am no longer able to validate whether addon-less browser would work, as the issue is mysteriously resolved now.
  - tinkertim 13y ago
    I blame Cthulhu. Mystery solved.

yannis 13y ago

I have been both an "expat" and an immigrant (UAE, Qatar, Libya). Here is the difference. As an "expat" I never intended to stay in the country for long. As a young immigrant I went to South Africa settled bought a house had kids and businesses and eventually became a citizen.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Hansi 13y ago

Very nice, like it. Already came across some helpful questions and answers.

tobylane 13y ago

I like to read /top/month or /top/year/ of many subreddits. With StackExchange there is only top, and I can't see a way to come back a long time later and see what's new in highly liked questions. Are there any third party sites that cater to this? Relevant because I imagine I'll read the top questions now, and again in a year with many questions coming up both times.