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Person rents out apartment to an individual who ended up lying to him. Is furious at AirBNB service for some reason. Does this logic work with other middleman

by howeyc 13y ago

Person rents out apartment to an individual who ended up lying to him. Is furious at AirBNB service for some reason. Does this logic work with other middleman services as well? Some examples: * Buy high priced item from (high ranked, but does it really matter?) individual on Ebay, turns out to be fake. Complain that this is Ebay's fault. * Make some kind of deal on Craigslist. Deal falls through. Claim all the fault of Craigslist.

timr 13y ago
It's pretty remarkable how the tone here has changed in three years' time. The first ransack-gate led to all sorts of calls for AirBnB to compensate the victim [1]. This time around, people seem to be blaming the guy who rented out the apartment [2]. Aside from the shift in time and the "orgy" angle, the situations are identical. Either HN has dramatically changed, or the collective attitude toward this kind of thing has shifted to a decidedly anti-host (or pro-company?) sentiment. Interesting. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2813956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2813956 [2] More commentary here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796
- true_religion 13y ago
  I'd say its neither. People react to a story based on the total context, not entirely on the facts. In the previous story, (if I remember correctly), it was presented as an ordinary individual who had their place ransacked and now was afraid to live there. There was an outpouring of support due to the individual being so sympathetic and the case being delivered in such a desperate tone. In this case the guy comes of (true or not) as entitled and antagonistic. ---- That said, a careful reading of the situations shows its not factually indentical. The previous case was a home-owner. AirBnB now protects people who own the property from damage caused when leasing. This case is a renter, who was essentially running a hotel room out of his apartment--an act against his lease, and perhaps even illegal in his area.
  - timr 13y ago
    You're "remembering" facts to justify your bias. Here's the original blog post from ransackgate: http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travelers-lost-faith-difficult.html http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travele... She never said anything about being an owner. As far as I can tell, she was a renter. Certainly, nobody knew if she rented or bought at the time the post hit HN. Basically, what you're saying is that you don't like the guy's tone, so you think he doesn't deserve sympathy. Glad you don't work for AirBnB customer support.
    - true_religion 13y ago
      Well I'm only refering to the articles linked to previously in this thread. In that article, they said that it was her 'house' as opposed to an apartment or the like. So I presumed she was a home owner, or at the very least a house is not a subdivision of a larger building. > Glad you don't work for AirBnB customer support. To be honest, I don't think he deserves sympathy since I don't know the full story (i.e. what exactly was damaged). But were I customer support, I'd be happy to hold his hand and have a cry with him because well.... that's the job of customer support.
lelandbatey 13y ago
Yeah, the first time I heard this, I was totally confused: how in the world is it AirBnb's fault that somebody else lied to the guy in this story. AirBnb seems related in only the most tangential of ways. I'd understand if he wrote: "Yeah, so I rented a place out on AirBnb and the guy renting was dishonest and I got burned; moral of the story: check out your renters." That would be totally rational. Instead we got: "Yeah, so I rented a place out on AirBnb and the guy renting was dishonest and I got burned; moral of the story: AirBnb is a bad company because this is someones fault, and if it's not me (it couldn't be me) and it's not the renter (he's scary), then it must be AirBnb's!"
- qq66 13y ago
  Well, AirBnB allows listings that are illegal in the listing's jurisdiction, so their culpability not a cut-and-dried case. https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1854409?checkin=03%2F26%2F2014&checkout=03%2F28%2F2014&s=LNAN https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1854409?checkin=03%2F26%2F2014&... If I had a website that openly facilitated illegal transactions (say, of cell phone jammers), and someone caused damages with an item they bought there, I couldn't throw up my hands and say it's not my problem.
hnnewguy 13y ago
>Is furious at AirBNB service for some reason. Well, that's the crux of this business; whose responsibility is it, then? If AirBnB facilitates the deal, the liability is at least partially theirs. Otherwise, what's the point of the service? I may as well post to randoms in the classifieds. And your two examples are nearly identical, but in the first case, eBay WILL take responsibility for the sale, and if you have paid through their payment service (Paypal) you can dispute the transaction. I've done it, and it was seamless.
CocaKoala 13y ago
To be fair, I think that part of the reason he's salty at AirBNB is because 'David' was a verified user and vouched for by AirBNB. It seems like there was a level of endorsement from AirBNB to indicate that 'David' was on the level, and that turned out to not be the case at all. So it's less like buying something on craigslist, having the deal fall through, and claiming that it's the fault of craigslist; it's more like buying something from Amazon through a third party and then complaining to Amazon that the item wasn't advertised honestly. While I don't buy a lot of stuff from Amazon third party sellers, I believe Amazon does offer some level of protection for the consumer.
- true_religion 13y ago
  Doesn't verification just mean that you're a 'real person' not necessarily a 'good person'?
  - CocaKoala 13y ago
    Honestly, I don't know; my first experience with AirBNB was waking up one morning to discover that somebody had used my email account to list their apartment for renting, and I got a whole bunch of emails from people who were super interested in it. I got control of the airbnb account by resetting the password, changed all the credentials, and contacted airbnb to let them know that a) they should probably not start listing apartments for rent without confirming that the lister controls the contact information and b) I was horrified, but the experience kind of put me off them as a service. Stories like this don't help either.
mpyne 13y ago
> Person rents out apartment to an individual who ended up lying to him. Is furious at AirBNB service for some reason. While I'm actually with you in that I think the apartment owner shouldn't have rented his apartment out, you have to understand that AirBnB's business model would be completely destroyed if this kind of thing consistently happens. The reason is that a random individual apartment owner has no way to independently vet someone trying to use AirBnB to sublet their apartment. AirBnB is the party with the aggregated information, not the apartment owner. If apartment/house owners see this business turn into "you have a 999/1000 chance of making $XXX and a 1/1000 chance of sustaining $XX,XXX in damages you are personally liable for, plus eviction", what do you think is going to happen to AirBnB?
- sentenza 13y ago
  They're going to be 'disrupted'? I'm not sure whether or not AirBNB should ever have come thus far. They're essentially offloading all the unpleasantness and liabilities of the hotel business on random schmucks that rent out their flats. There are two ways this could play out. AirBNB will have to start playing by the rules that everybody else plays by, or they'll completely deregulate the Hotel business and we'll all be in comment-spam ratinghell while planning trips in the future.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    > They're essentially offloading all the unpleasantness and liabilities of the hotel business on random schmucks that rent out their flats. Exactly. The only question is whether they can convince the necessary number of "schmucks" that they're not actually schmucks.
rsgalloway 13y ago
I'll tell you why this is AirBnB's problem and they are likely liable. It's because AirBnB will absolutely NOT let owners communicate with potential renters outside of their walled garden, or to independently verify a renter's credit or criminal history. That absolutely puts all of the liability onto AirBnB.
joesmo 13y ago
I don't know if it works for other services, but it's my understanding that airbnb carries liability insurance for exactly this situation. Otherwise, what is the point of giving them a cut? At 3% for the host (in addition to guest fees), that's certainly not a small fee. Think of it like insurance. There are other avenues for renting out an apartment that don't cost anything and thus do not provide insurance or reimbursement such as craigslist.
Qualman 13y ago
This is foolish logic. AirBnB vouched for the trustworthiness of this "David" fellow through their "Verified" badge. This is also their duty and responsibility as the facilitator between renters and rentees. And the process is the same on eBay--if your deal somehow turns out be less than legitimate, eBay will step in and attempt to resolve the situation, as the facilitator between buyer and seller. It is not that it is eBay or AirBnB's "fault", but they do have a reputation to uphold by being a responsive and trustworthy deal facilitator. Also, craigslist is a listing of classified, and does not facilitate or participate in deals in any way. It is a flawed comparison.
PaulRobinson 13y ago
Airbnb's business model is that they verify and vouch for the tenant. If they're not prepared to do that, they don't have a business model. The point of this story is that Airbnb's verification system is worth about as much as Craigslist's (i.e. there isn't one) and isn't as good as eBay's. So they need to work on that, and until they do, it might be an idea to not rent out your apartment on there unless you're really, really, really sure you know who you're renting it out to.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
rsgalloway 13y ago
AirBnB is liable because AirBnB will absolutely NOT let owners communicate with potential renters outside of their walled garden, or to independently verify a renter's credit or criminal history. That absolutely puts all of the liability onto AirBnB. (why does this keep getting deleted?)

by howeyc 13y ago

timr 13y ago

It's pretty remarkable how the tone here has changed in three years' time. The first ransack-gate led to all sorts of calls for AirBnB to compensate the victim [1]. This time around, people seem to be blaming the guy who rented out the apartment [2]. Aside from the shift in time and the "orgy" angle, the situations are identical. Either HN has dramatically changed, or the collective attitude toward this kind of thing has shifted to a decidedly anti-host (or pro-company?) sentiment. Interesting. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2813956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2813956 [2] More commentary here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796

true_religion 13y ago
I'd say its neither. People react to a story based on the total context, not entirely on the facts. In the previous story, (if I remember correctly), it was presented as an ordinary individual who had their place ransacked and now was afraid to live there. There was an outpouring of support due to the individual being so sympathetic and the case being delivered in such a desperate tone. In this case the guy comes of (true or not) as entitled and antagonistic. ---- That said, a careful reading of the situations shows its not factually indentical. The previous case was a home-owner. AirBnB now protects people who own the property from damage caused when leasing. This case is a renter, who was essentially running a hotel room out of his apartment--an act against his lease, and perhaps even illegal in his area.
- timr 13y ago
  You're "remembering" facts to justify your bias. Here's the original blog post from ransackgate: http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travelers-lost-faith-difficult.html http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/06/violated-travele... She never said anything about being an owner. As far as I can tell, she was a renter. Certainly, nobody knew if she rented or bought at the time the post hit HN. Basically, what you're saying is that you don't like the guy's tone, so you think he doesn't deserve sympathy. Glad you don't work for AirBnB customer support.
  - true_religion 13y ago
    Well I'm only refering to the articles linked to previously in this thread. In that article, they said that it was her 'house' as opposed to an apartment or the like. So I presumed she was a home owner, or at the very least a house is not a subdivision of a larger building. > Glad you don't work for AirBnB customer support. To be honest, I don't think he deserves sympathy since I don't know the full story (i.e. what exactly was damaged). But were I customer support, I'd be happy to hold his hand and have a cry with him because well.... that's the job of customer support.

lelandbatey 13y ago

Yeah, the first time I heard this, I was totally confused: how in the world is it AirBnb's fault that somebody else lied to the guy in this story. AirBnb seems related in only the most tangential of ways. I'd understand if he wrote: "Yeah, so I rented a place out on AirBnb and the guy renting was dishonest and I got burned; moral of the story: check out your renters." That would be totally rational. Instead we got: "Yeah, so I rented a place out on AirBnb and the guy renting was dishonest and I got burned; moral of the story: AirBnb is a bad company because this is someones fault, and if it's not me (it couldn't be me) and it's not the renter (he's scary), then it must be AirBnb's!"

qq66 13y ago
Well, AirBnB allows listings that are illegal in the listing's jurisdiction, so their culpability not a cut-and-dried case. https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1854409?checkin=03%2F26%2F2014&checkout=03%2F28%2F2014&s=LNAN https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1854409?checkin=03%2F26%2F2014&... If I had a website that openly facilitated illegal transactions (say, of cell phone jammers), and someone caused damages with an item they bought there, I couldn't throw up my hands and say it's not my problem.

hnnewguy 13y ago

>Is furious at AirBNB service for some reason. Well, that's the crux of this business; whose responsibility is it, then? If AirBnB facilitates the deal, the liability is at least partially theirs. Otherwise, what's the point of the service? I may as well post to randoms in the classifieds. And your two examples are nearly identical, but in the first case, eBay WILL take responsibility for the sale, and if you have paid through their payment service (Paypal) you can dispute the transaction. I've done it, and it was seamless.

CocaKoala 13y ago

To be fair, I think that part of the reason he's salty at AirBNB is because 'David' was a verified user and vouched for by AirBNB. It seems like there was a level of endorsement from AirBNB to indicate that 'David' was on the level, and that turned out to not be the case at all. So it's less like buying something on craigslist, having the deal fall through, and claiming that it's the fault of craigslist; it's more like buying something from Amazon through a third party and then complaining to Amazon that the item wasn't advertised honestly. While I don't buy a lot of stuff from Amazon third party sellers, I believe Amazon does offer some level of protection for the consumer.

true_religion 13y ago
Doesn't verification just mean that you're a 'real person' not necessarily a 'good person'?
- CocaKoala 13y ago
  Honestly, I don't know; my first experience with AirBNB was waking up one morning to discover that somebody had used my email account to list their apartment for renting, and I got a whole bunch of emails from people who were super interested in it. I got control of the airbnb account by resetting the password, changed all the credentials, and contacted airbnb to let them know that a) they should probably not start listing apartments for rent without confirming that the lister controls the contact information and b) I was horrified, but the experience kind of put me off them as a service. Stories like this don't help either.

mpyne 13y ago

> Person rents out apartment to an individual who ended up lying to him. Is furious at AirBNB service for some reason. While I'm actually with you in that I think the apartment owner shouldn't have rented his apartment out, you have to understand that AirBnB's business model would be completely destroyed if this kind of thing consistently happens. The reason is that a random individual apartment owner has no way to independently vet someone trying to use AirBnB to sublet their apartment. AirBnB is the party with the aggregated information, not the apartment owner. If apartment/house owners see this business turn into "you have a 999/1000 chance of making $XXX and a 1/1000 chance of sustaining $XX,XXX in damages you are personally liable for, plus eviction", what do you think is going to happen to AirBnB?

sentenza 13y ago
They're going to be 'disrupted'? I'm not sure whether or not AirBNB should ever have come thus far. They're essentially offloading all the unpleasantness and liabilities of the hotel business on random schmucks that rent out their flats. There are two ways this could play out. AirBNB will have to start playing by the rules that everybody else plays by, or they'll completely deregulate the Hotel business and we'll all be in comment-spam ratinghell while planning trips in the future.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > They're essentially offloading all the unpleasantness and liabilities of the hotel business on random schmucks that rent out their flats. Exactly. The only question is whether they can convince the necessary number of "schmucks" that they're not actually schmucks.

rsgalloway 13y ago

I'll tell you why this is AirBnB's problem and they are likely liable. It's because AirBnB will absolutely NOT let owners communicate with potential renters outside of their walled garden, or to independently verify a renter's credit or criminal history. That absolutely puts all of the liability onto AirBnB.

joesmo 13y ago

I don't know if it works for other services, but it's my understanding that airbnb carries liability insurance for exactly this situation. Otherwise, what is the point of giving them a cut? At 3% for the host (in addition to guest fees), that's certainly not a small fee. Think of it like insurance. There are other avenues for renting out an apartment that don't cost anything and thus do not provide insurance or reimbursement such as craigslist.

Qualman 13y ago

This is foolish logic. AirBnB vouched for the trustworthiness of this "David" fellow through their "Verified" badge. This is also their duty and responsibility as the facilitator between renters and rentees. And the process is the same on eBay--if your deal somehow turns out be less than legitimate, eBay will step in and attempt to resolve the situation, as the facilitator between buyer and seller. It is not that it is eBay or AirBnB's "fault", but they do have a reputation to uphold by being a responsive and trustworthy deal facilitator. Also, craigslist is a listing of classified, and does not facilitate or participate in deals in any way. It is a flawed comparison.

PaulRobinson 13y ago

Airbnb's business model is that they verify and vouch for the tenant. If they're not prepared to do that, they don't have a business model. The point of this story is that Airbnb's verification system is worth about as much as Craigslist's (i.e. there isn't one) and isn't as good as eBay's. So they need to work on that, and until they do, it might be an idea to not rent out your apartment on there unless you're really, really, really sure you know who you're renting it out to.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

rsgalloway 13y ago

AirBnB is liable because AirBnB will absolutely NOT let owners communicate with potential renters outside of their walled garden, or to independently verify a renter's credit or criminal history. That absolutely puts all of the liability onto AirBnB. (why does this keep getting deleted?)