6 ms·

SaveTheInternet.eu – the EU vote on net neutrality tomorrow

236 points by kmfrk 13y ago

ginko 13y ago
Why do I have to play the one-armed bandit until I possibly reach one of the 19 MEPs from my home country Austria?
- mherrmann 13y ago
  Try Paul Rübig's office: +33388175749. I have been in touch with his assistant Ms Barbaro there, which is responsible for the net neutrality issue. Here is the letter I sent them regarding the issue (German): https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wmn08zsxwftspw/Brief.pdf https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wmn08zsxwftspw/Brief.pdf
  - mherrmann 13y ago
    (Paul Rübig is an Austrian MEP)
- Fuxy 13y ago
  No idea having them on the website is a nice change though. I always had a problem finding someone to email playing Russian roulette until i find one is slightly easier.
  - Shish2k 13y ago
    > playing Russian roulette until i find one Well, you've certainly found the most badass way to get in contact with a politician -- not sure how effective it is over the long term though...
- sentenza 13y ago
  They explained the algorithm in a recent episode of Logbuch Netzpolitik [1]. They weighted all MEPs according to their current stance on the issue, so you're more likely to get the contact info of an opponent of net neutrality than a proponent. Nonetheless, I also find it slightly frustrating that they didn't include country-matching or at least a language preference setting. After all, the MEP might be more inclined to listen to me if I'm one of their constituents (or if I am at least able to communicate with them). [1] http://logbuch-netzpolitik.de/lnp094-internet-zero http://logbuch-netzpolitik.de/lnp094-internet-zero
  - Silhouette 13y ago
    After all, the MEP might be more inclined to listen to me if I'm one of their constituents (or if I am at least able to communicate with them). This is something I don't quite understand at EU level. In the UK, there is a convention that MPs only act for and respond to their own constituents. Randomly e-mailing the MP for somewhere else is extremely unlikely to achieve anything useful at all. I don't know whether the European Parliament has a similar convention, but even if not, it's hard to see why a random MEP is -- or should be -- swayed in their position by representations from anyone other than the voters to whom they are responsible. I don't understand why anyone would ever advocate lobbying anyone but their own representatives. Does this actually achieve anything at EU level?
- seszett 13y ago
  It's a bit frustrating, I clicked 20+ times (or at least it felt like 20+ times) the "get another MEP" button until I could find a French guy (sorry, it might be the EU but I'm not calling a Polish or Greek MEP and hope we can understand each other) and... when a French flag appeared I still had the reflex to click the button again. And it happened a second time, and then I quit.
- rvanmil 13y ago
  You can easily find all of them over here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/map.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/map.html There's an email button on their profile pages.
- glomph 13y ago
  In the UK we have https://www.writetothem.com/ https://www.writetothem.com/ which allows you to easily contact your own MPS/MEPS. I guess it is a shame it isn't more widely available.
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago
  On the Pi-Phone website - linked in the "call an MEP" widgets - you can choose the country: http://piphone.lqdn.fr/campaign/call2/NetNeutrality-ITRE-nov_13#mep http://piphone.lqdn.fr/campaign/call2/NetNeutrality-ITRE-nov...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- valarauca1 13y ago
  The problem is that most of the ideas surrounding markets in a post-scarcity world are largely all marxist. Pure marxist thinking (not what the USSR/Soviet Bloc practiced) states that when the means of production out pace the demand of people you can start moving away from a capitalistic model economy. To a large(-ish) degree this is the state that software currently exists in. The cost of serving a file to 10,100,1000,10'000 people are (not counting bandwidth) nearly identical concerning human labor. Which is the point that Marx spoke of. Technological infrastructure is a build once and wait. Continuous labor doesn't have to be supplied for production to continue (i.e.: a factory vs a web server or a router) nobody has to flip a switch for every packet. The real issue is that software doesn't want to be associated with Marxism due to the stigma, but overall it is Marxism in practice. We just don't have better economic theory to describe whats happening.
  - hisham_hm 13y ago
    I think "not counting bandwidth" is a dangerous simplification people often make when talking about the "post-scarcity world". The whole debacle on net neutrality comes from the bandwidth providers. Bandwidth is ultimately the "ticket" that every internet user pays to join the party. It's a huge inflow of real-world money into the system. This money is buying congresspeople all over the world (same net neutrality threats and ongoing law discussions here in Brazil). It's a key factor.
    - valarauca1 13y ago
      The original comment which has since been deleted. Was saying that about 9% of the EU parliament believes net neutrality legislation is communist. I was explaining why it could be seen that way.
contingencies 13y ago
If Europe falls, the world is beyond hope.
- Vlaix 13y ago
  Europe fell decades ago. The Marshall Plan we call it.
workhere-io 13y ago
For those in Denmark, the people you should contact are http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/da/28153/BRITTA_THOMSEN_home.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/da/28153/BRITTA_THOMSEN_h... and http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/da/96710/JENS_ROHDE_home.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/da/96710/JENS_ROHDE_home.... (there might be others - the full list of Danish members of the European Parliament is here: http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/guide/alle/vejviser/ http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/guide/alle/vejviser/).
- higherpurpose 13y ago
  It's annoying that the EU site doesn't even allow you to see the MEPs by country. Nobody thought that would be needed? I had to look for them one by one and get their e-mails.
  - masklinn 13y ago
    La Quadrature du Net has them, FWIW. Here's for Denmark: https://memopol.lqdn.fr/search/?q=country%3ADK%20is_active%3A1 https://memopol.lqdn.fr/search/?q=country%3ADK%20is_active%3... Not all MPs have contact information filled in though.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- mercurial 13y ago
  Thanks.
killerpopiller 13y ago
I've called the Office of Mr. Bütikofer (German Green Party). They are not optimistic that Trautmans (Social Parties) draft will prevail since the Liberal Parties will probably vote against net neutrality :( Although there is hope. Fuck the EU, btw. I am sick of the EU Commission - they need constant supervision and try everything to ruin our freedoms in favor of coporatism. The EU needs to end. It can't be controlled democratly.
- masklinn 13y ago
  Your comment seems at odd with the site itself, according to which the commissionner's text, while definitely falling short, was not that far from a binding NN legislation before being significantly worsened in committees (that is, outside the commission you rant about): > While we welcome the intention to enshrine net neutrality into law across the EU, the proposal fails to deliver the promise of net neutrality as it contains several problematic loopholes. However, the text itself is not far off the mark. With the right improvements, the European Union could have binding net neutrality legislation. The proposal is now in hands of the Parliament and will be reviewed by several committees, with the Industry, Research and Energy (ITRE) committee as the lead in charge of this dossier. The modifications introduced in some committees have regrettably worsened the problems in the Commission proposal. (http://www.savetheinternet.eu/#regulation http://www.savetheinternet.eu/#regulation, emphasis mine) Also not sure what the relation is between your basic assertion that the EU commission is bad and the EU itself needing to end.
  - killerpopiller 13y ago
    it is not about that specific fuck up about to go down, but about all the many proposition coming from the commission. Propositions which couldn't be introduced in a normal parliament, because they would be discussed and citizens would be at alert. E.g. the data retention laws. The EU distanced itself so far from it's citizens, most topics things don't reach the people here and this "regulation" is the best example. The EU is not democratic at all. The parliament members can't even propose new legislations and EU laws are not always compatible with nation constitutions which renders it's purpose close to illegitimate. Instead we have a far away bunch of "politicians" or better "soldiers" ready to legitimate everything with enough money and power.
shdon 13y ago
I wrote to every single one of the Dutch MEPs, trying to explain to them what NN actually is, why a lack of it is a bad thing, and reminding them that our Dutch national laws do protect NN. Several have e-mailed back that they agree and will do their bit to protect NN. I suppose the good thing about Euro-politics is that, even though many citizens don't seem to care about what Brussels and Strasbourg do, that means MEPs are more likely to listen when people do voice their concern.
siddMahen 13y ago
I'm reading the bill right now, I don't know why there's such a fuss. The people who drafted this document are aware of these issues, and have taken active measures to make sure they aren't taken advantage of. For example, this site says: > The current definition of "specialized service" (Article 2.15) increases costs and risk to internet users, and must be changed or deleted. However, if you look at the actual definition in the bill [1], this has already been taken care of: > (15) "specialised service" means an electronic communications service or any other service that provides the capability to access specific content, applications or services, or a combination thereof, and whose technical characteristics are controlled from end-to-end or provides the capability to send or receive data to or from a determined number of parties or endpoints; and that is not marketed or widely used as a substitute for internet access service; (Emphasis is my own.) Similar arguments can be used for the rest of the sites' points. To be clear, I'm all for net neutrality, in fact, as a student I've personally benefited from this enormously. But it's unfair to say this bill is "threatening internet freedom". Rather, it seems like a big step forwards for consumers and telecom companies alike. [1] - http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/cf/dae/document.cfm?doc_id=2734 http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/cf/dae/docu...
- higherpurpose 13y ago
  What about the one where ISP's can unilaterally censor stuff?
  - mercurial 13y ago
    Sounds like the gateway to "think of the children" "voluntary" policies.
- mercurial 13y ago
  > > (15) "specialised service" means an electronic communications service or any other service that provides the capability to access specific content, applications or services, or a combination thereof, and whose technical characteristics are controlled from end-to-end or provides the capability to send or receive data to or from a determined number of parties or endpoints; and that is not marketed or widely used as a substitute for internet access service; I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like a VOD service controlled by an ISP would qualify.
Vlaix 13y ago
You guys across the Atlantic need to understand than nobody in Europe ever cared about what the EU votes, unless they're a EU employee themselves.
binarray2000 13y ago
We have the same story again, and again, and again... No matter if it's called SOPA or if it's wrapped in some other cloth, the intention is the same: Big business wants to preserve its cash cows (interests) by fending off pesky competition. We think that our representatives need more information, so we educate them. But, as much as I think that is true, at the end of the day they'll vote along their party line, no matter if we educate them or not. We're fighting with words (educating), big business with money (buying lobbyists). And they are prepared to ruin their vocal opponents, even drive them towards suicide (Aaron Swartz). Sorry for being pessimistic.

236 points by kmfrk 13y ago

ginko 13y ago

Why do I have to play the one-armed bandit until I possibly reach one of the 19 MEPs from my home country Austria?

mherrmann 13y ago
Try Paul Rübig's office: +33388175749. I have been in touch with his assistant Ms Barbaro there, which is responsible for the net neutrality issue. Here is the letter I sent them regarding the issue (German): https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wmn08zsxwftspw/Brief.pdf https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wmn08zsxwftspw/Brief.pdf
- mherrmann 13y ago
  (Paul Rübig is an Austrian MEP)
Fuxy 13y ago
No idea having them on the website is a nice change though. I always had a problem finding someone to email playing Russian roulette until i find one is slightly easier.
- Shish2k 13y ago
  > playing Russian roulette until i find one Well, you've certainly found the most badass way to get in contact with a politician -- not sure how effective it is over the long term though...
sentenza 13y ago
They explained the algorithm in a recent episode of Logbuch Netzpolitik [1]. They weighted all MEPs according to their current stance on the issue, so you're more likely to get the contact info of an opponent of net neutrality than a proponent. Nonetheless, I also find it slightly frustrating that they didn't include country-matching or at least a language preference setting. After all, the MEP might be more inclined to listen to me if I'm one of their constituents (or if I am at least able to communicate with them). [1] http://logbuch-netzpolitik.de/lnp094-internet-zero http://logbuch-netzpolitik.de/lnp094-internet-zero
- Silhouette 13y ago
  After all, the MEP might be more inclined to listen to me if I'm one of their constituents (or if I am at least able to communicate with them). This is something I don't quite understand at EU level. In the UK, there is a convention that MPs only act for and respond to their own constituents. Randomly e-mailing the MP for somewhere else is extremely unlikely to achieve anything useful at all. I don't know whether the European Parliament has a similar convention, but even if not, it's hard to see why a random MEP is -- or should be -- swayed in their position by representations from anyone other than the voters to whom they are responsible. I don't understand why anyone would ever advocate lobbying anyone but their own representatives. Does this actually achieve anything at EU level?
seszett 13y ago
It's a bit frustrating, I clicked 20+ times (or at least it felt like 20+ times) the "get another MEP" button until I could find a French guy (sorry, it might be the EU but I'm not calling a Polish or Greek MEP and hope we can understand each other) and... when a French flag appeared I still had the reflex to click the button again. And it happened a second time, and then I quit.
rvanmil 13y ago
You can easily find all of them over here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/map.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/map.html There's an email button on their profile pages.
glomph 13y ago
In the UK we have https://www.writetothem.com/ https://www.writetothem.com/ which allows you to easily contact your own MPS/MEPS. I guess it is a shame it isn't more widely available.
pbhjpbhj 13y ago
On the Pi-Phone website - linked in the "call an MEP" widgets - you can choose the country: http://piphone.lqdn.fr/campaign/call2/NetNeutrality-ITRE-nov_13#mep http://piphone.lqdn.fr/campaign/call2/NetNeutrality-ITRE-nov...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

valarauca1 13y ago
The problem is that most of the ideas surrounding markets in a post-scarcity world are largely all marxist. Pure marxist thinking (not what the USSR/Soviet Bloc practiced) states that when the means of production out pace the demand of people you can start moving away from a capitalistic model economy. To a large(-ish) degree this is the state that software currently exists in. The cost of serving a file to 10,100,1000,10'000 people are (not counting bandwidth) nearly identical concerning human labor. Which is the point that Marx spoke of. Technological infrastructure is a build once and wait. Continuous labor doesn't have to be supplied for production to continue (i.e.: a factory vs a web server or a router) nobody has to flip a switch for every packet. The real issue is that software doesn't want to be associated with Marxism due to the stigma, but overall it is Marxism in practice. We just don't have better economic theory to describe whats happening.
- hisham_hm 13y ago
  I think "not counting bandwidth" is a dangerous simplification people often make when talking about the "post-scarcity world". The whole debacle on net neutrality comes from the bandwidth providers. Bandwidth is ultimately the "ticket" that every internet user pays to join the party. It's a huge inflow of real-world money into the system. This money is buying congresspeople all over the world (same net neutrality threats and ongoing law discussions here in Brazil). It's a key factor.
  - valarauca1 13y ago
    The original comment which has since been deleted. Was saying that about 9% of the EU parliament believes net neutrality legislation is communist. I was explaining why it could be seen that way.

contingencies 13y ago

If Europe falls, the world is beyond hope.

Vlaix 13y ago
Europe fell decades ago. The Marshall Plan we call it.

workhere-io 13y ago

For those in Denmark, the people you should contact are http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/da/28153/BRITTA_THOMSEN_home.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/da/28153/BRITTA_THOMSEN_h... and http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/da/96710/JENS_ROHDE_home.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/da/96710/JENS_ROHDE_home.... (there might be others - the full list of Danish members of the European Parliament is here: http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/guide/alle/vejviser/ http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/guide/alle/vejviser/).

higherpurpose 13y ago
It's annoying that the EU site doesn't even allow you to see the MEPs by country. Nobody thought that would be needed? I had to look for them one by one and get their e-mails.
- masklinn 13y ago
  La Quadrature du Net has them, FWIW. Here's for Denmark: https://memopol.lqdn.fr/search/?q=country%3ADK%20is_active%3A1 https://memopol.lqdn.fr/search/?q=country%3ADK%20is_active%3... Not all MPs have contact information filled in though.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
mercurial 13y ago
Thanks.

killerpopiller 13y ago

I've called the Office of Mr. Bütikofer (German Green Party). They are not optimistic that Trautmans (Social Parties) draft will prevail since the Liberal Parties will probably vote against net neutrality :( Although there is hope. Fuck the EU, btw. I am sick of the EU Commission - they need constant supervision and try everything to ruin our freedoms in favor of coporatism. The EU needs to end. It can't be controlled democratly.

masklinn 13y ago
Your comment seems at odd with the site itself, according to which the commissionner's text, while definitely falling short, was not that far from a binding NN legislation before being significantly worsened in committees (that is, outside the commission you rant about): > While we welcome the intention to enshrine net neutrality into law across the EU, the proposal fails to deliver the promise of net neutrality as it contains several problematic loopholes. However, the text itself is not far off the mark. With the right improvements, the European Union could have binding net neutrality legislation. The proposal is now in hands of the Parliament and will be reviewed by several committees, with the Industry, Research and Energy (ITRE) committee as the lead in charge of this dossier. The modifications introduced in some committees have regrettably worsened the problems in the Commission proposal. (http://www.savetheinternet.eu/#regulation http://www.savetheinternet.eu/#regulation, emphasis mine) Also not sure what the relation is between your basic assertion that the EU commission is bad and the EU itself needing to end.
- killerpopiller 13y ago
  it is not about that specific fuck up about to go down, but about all the many proposition coming from the commission. Propositions which couldn't be introduced in a normal parliament, because they would be discussed and citizens would be at alert. E.g. the data retention laws. The EU distanced itself so far from it's citizens, most topics things don't reach the people here and this "regulation" is the best example. The EU is not democratic at all. The parliament members can't even propose new legislations and EU laws are not always compatible with nation constitutions which renders it's purpose close to illegitimate. Instead we have a far away bunch of "politicians" or better "soldiers" ready to legitimate everything with enough money and power.

shdon 13y ago

I wrote to every single one of the Dutch MEPs, trying to explain to them what NN actually is, why a lack of it is a bad thing, and reminding them that our Dutch national laws do protect NN. Several have e-mailed back that they agree and will do their bit to protect NN. I suppose the good thing about Euro-politics is that, even though many citizens don't seem to care about what Brussels and Strasbourg do, that means MEPs are more likely to listen when people do voice their concern.

siddMahen 13y ago

I'm reading the bill right now, I don't know why there's such a fuss. The people who drafted this document are aware of these issues, and have taken active measures to make sure they aren't taken advantage of. For example, this site says: > The current definition of "specialized service" (Article 2.15) increases costs and risk to internet users, and must be changed or deleted. However, if you look at the actual definition in the bill [1], this has already been taken care of: > (15) "specialised service" means an electronic communications service or any other service that provides the capability to access specific content, applications or services, or a combination thereof, and whose technical characteristics are controlled from end-to-end or provides the capability to send or receive data to or from a determined number of parties or endpoints; and that is not marketed or widely used as a substitute for internet access service; (Emphasis is my own.) Similar arguments can be used for the rest of the sites' points. To be clear, I'm all for net neutrality, in fact, as a student I've personally benefited from this enormously. But it's unfair to say this bill is "threatening internet freedom". Rather, it seems like a big step forwards for consumers and telecom companies alike. [1] - http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/cf/dae/document.cfm?doc_id=2734 http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/cf/dae/docu...

higherpurpose 13y ago
What about the one where ISP's can unilaterally censor stuff?
- mercurial 13y ago
  Sounds like the gateway to "think of the children" "voluntary" policies.
mercurial 13y ago
> > (15) "specialised service" means an electronic communications service or any other service that provides the capability to access specific content, applications or services, or a combination thereof, and whose technical characteristics are controlled from end-to-end or provides the capability to send or receive data to or from a determined number of parties or endpoints; and that is not marketed or widely used as a substitute for internet access service; I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like a VOD service controlled by an ISP would qualify.

Vlaix 13y ago

You guys across the Atlantic need to understand than nobody in Europe ever cared about what the EU votes, unless they're a EU employee themselves.

binarray2000 13y ago

We have the same story again, and again, and again... No matter if it's called SOPA or if it's wrapped in some other cloth, the intention is the same: Big business wants to preserve its cash cows (interests) by fending off pesky competition. We think that our representatives need more information, so we educate them. But, as much as I think that is true, at the end of the day they'll vote along their party line, no matter if we educate them or not. We're fighting with words (educating), big business with money (buying lobbyists). And they are prepared to ruin their vocal opponents, even drive them towards suicide (Aaron Swartz). Sorry for being pessimistic.