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> but that can be solved by growing a pair Really? There are like 5 other phrases you could use that don't exclude (more than) half the people on the planet.

> but that can be solved by growing a pair Really? There are like 5 other phrases you could use that don't exclude (more than) half the people on the planet. > in the hypersensitive PC world that feminists are pushing on the bigger players in the tech world, you simply can't do that. Ah, I fell for your trap didn't I (well I didn't, I added the above afterwards, but let's say I did). First, not all feminists want the same things. It would be like saying: "libertarian utopia that conservatives", or "socialized business environment that liberals". Yes many of the people who espouse those views claim that political identity. But not everyone (or likely even a majority) of the people who claim those political identities espouse the given view. That's like 2 fallacies (false cause fallacy, genetic fallacy) and a misleading rhetorical device (poisoning the well) all in one. Second, feminism isn't political correctness. It's about equality. And yes equality means you have to stop insulting people's identities, especially when you are part of the privileged group (i.e. you are part of the identity that the in question oppression generally favors). Especially when you are one of the leading companies in the world and you want every customer you can get (Hey lookie! market forces!). I'm all for your total honesty, even if it's rude, as long as it isn't ridiculing someone's identity (if you can't state your perception of the truth without doing that, then your perception of the truth is flawed because it involves people's identity). Also, your job may require you to work with certain people, so being polite may be a requirement for your job and whatever. (As an example, the (initial) problem discussed here (the github employee) has to do with GitHub (apparently) not making a conducive work environment).

yummyfajitas 13y ago
There are like 5 other phrases you could use that don't exclude (more than) half the people on the planet. I didn't think of any that express the same sentiment - even now, the only alternative I can think of is "stop whining like a bitch". I'm not going to communicate less accurately to avoid "excluding" people - I really don't mind if people who are overly emotional fail to understand me. First, not all feminists want the same things. I've certainly never heard feminists advocate greater freedom for men to clearly say "sorry, you aren't smart enough for me to work with. But damn girl what an ass - wanna go out?" Can you link to some who feel differently? Somehow, I strongly suspect the vast majority would rant on twitter and attempt to publicly shame the person involved. I'm well aware that a few feel differently - my cofounder is one of them, but she's about 3 sigma out of the mainstream. Your talk of "equality" requires a lot of clarification. If you are advocating different standards for people depending on membership in arbitrary groups, then you (or the feminists you are speaking of) are explicitly advocating against equality of individual humans. So what sort of equality are you advocating for?
- ewoodrich 13y ago
  > I've certainly never heard feminists advocate greater freedom for men to clearly say "sorry, you aren't smart enough for me to work with. But damn girl what an ass - wanna go out?" I hope they wouldn't advocate for that. I wouldn't even consider that flattering or honest if a woman were to say that to me. It would just be condescending.
- btilly 13y ago
  The meaning of the sentence doesn't change if you say "growing up", "acting like an adult", or "taking responsibility for yourself". I should also note that I'm not exactly a fan of your willingness to screw someone you don't respect. But your lack of desire for a real relationship isn't my problem.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    I'm not sure why you feel I don't respect someone simply because I don't want to work with them. Had I thought of them, I would not have used any of the phrasing you suggest because they are insufficiently derogatory. Consider this guy: The rejection of the other employee [by Julie Ann Horvath] led to...an internal battle at GitHub...hurt from my rejection, started passive-aggressively ripping out my code from projects we had worked on together... "Act like an adult" doesn't have the same ring as "grow a pair" (although in this case, "stop being a whiny bitch" would be my preferred phrasing).
- SolarNet 13y ago
  > Your talk of "equality" requires a lot of clarification. If you are advocating different standards for people depending on membership in arbitrary groups, then you (or the feminists you are speaking of) are explicitly advocating against equality of individual humans. So what sort of equality are you advocating for? Assuming you mean that not insulting people's identity and equality conflict: Is it really so hard to not insult people's identities when you talk that the words you would use when you talk to other people would merely insult other identity groups? Perhaps you can talk to and about people without insulting anyone's identities? > I've certainly never heard feminists advocate greater freedom for men to clearly say "sorry, you aren't smart enough for me to work with. But damn girl what an ass - wanna go out?" Probably because you are sexually objectifying someone? And someone's appearance has nothing to do with work? To clarify, I meant that brutal honesty thing in reference to work. But if you want to say those things to people in public, feel free to do that (although I doubt many women enjoy being treated like sexual objects and called stupid in the same sentence, but there is nothing wrong with saying that). But if at work you wanted to say, perhaps, "This code is wrong, your understanding of how this works is wrong, go read up on it", then that's the work environment you have, and there is still nothing wrong with that. But commenting on someone's sexual attractiveness or identity at work isn't honesty related to work it's you being a nympho or a bigot. So saying: "sorry, you aren't smart enough for me to work with." is fine at work. And saying: "But damn girl what an ass - wanna go out?" is fine in public (if women who respond to that are your type). So while saying both in public would be strange, saying both in a workplace is unacceptable.
stoptalkingshit 13y ago
Piss off. All this bullshit about people taking some personal attribute or behavior and insisting that it's a major part of their "identity" is nothing more than a defense mechanism for losers.
- lilsunnybee 13y ago
  Oh God. Really?

yummyfajitas 13y ago

There are like 5 other phrases you could use that don't exclude (more than) half the people on the planet. I didn't think of any that express the same sentiment - even now, the only alternative I can think of is "stop whining like a bitch". I'm not going to communicate less accurately to avoid "excluding" people - I really don't mind if people who are overly emotional fail to understand me. First, not all feminists want the same things. I've certainly never heard feminists advocate greater freedom for men to clearly say "sorry, you aren't smart enough for me to work with. But damn girl what an ass - wanna go out?" Can you link to some who feel differently? Somehow, I strongly suspect the vast majority would rant on twitter and attempt to publicly shame the person involved. I'm well aware that a few feel differently - my cofounder is one of them, but she's about 3 sigma out of the mainstream. Your talk of "equality" requires a lot of clarification. If you are advocating different standards for people depending on membership in arbitrary groups, then you (or the feminists you are speaking of) are explicitly advocating against equality of individual humans. So what sort of equality are you advocating for?

ewoodrich 13y ago
> I've certainly never heard feminists advocate greater freedom for men to clearly say "sorry, you aren't smart enough for me to work with. But damn girl what an ass - wanna go out?" I hope they wouldn't advocate for that. I wouldn't even consider that flattering or honest if a woman were to say that to me. It would just be condescending.
btilly 13y ago
The meaning of the sentence doesn't change if you say "growing up", "acting like an adult", or "taking responsibility for yourself". I should also note that I'm not exactly a fan of your willingness to screw someone you don't respect. But your lack of desire for a real relationship isn't my problem.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  I'm not sure why you feel I don't respect someone simply because I don't want to work with them. Had I thought of them, I would not have used any of the phrasing you suggest because they are insufficiently derogatory. Consider this guy: The rejection of the other employee [by Julie Ann Horvath] led to...an internal battle at GitHub...hurt from my rejection, started passive-aggressively ripping out my code from projects we had worked on together... "Act like an adult" doesn't have the same ring as "grow a pair" (although in this case, "stop being a whiny bitch" would be my preferred phrasing).
SolarNet 13y ago
> Your talk of "equality" requires a lot of clarification. If you are advocating different standards for people depending on membership in arbitrary groups, then you (or the feminists you are speaking of) are explicitly advocating against equality of individual humans. So what sort of equality are you advocating for? Assuming you mean that not insulting people's identity and equality conflict: Is it really so hard to not insult people's identities when you talk that the words you would use when you talk to other people would merely insult other identity groups? Perhaps you can talk to and about people without insulting anyone's identities? > I've certainly never heard feminists advocate greater freedom for men to clearly say "sorry, you aren't smart enough for me to work with. But damn girl what an ass - wanna go out?" Probably because you are sexually objectifying someone? And someone's appearance has nothing to do with work? To clarify, I meant that brutal honesty thing in reference to work. But if you want to say those things to people in public, feel free to do that (although I doubt many women enjoy being treated like sexual objects and called stupid in the same sentence, but there is nothing wrong with saying that). But if at work you wanted to say, perhaps, "This code is wrong, your understanding of how this works is wrong, go read up on it", then that's the work environment you have, and there is still nothing wrong with that. But commenting on someone's sexual attractiveness or identity at work isn't honesty related to work it's you being a nympho or a bigot. So saying: "sorry, you aren't smart enough for me to work with." is fine at work. And saying: "But damn girl what an ass - wanna go out?" is fine in public (if women who respond to that are your type). So while saying both in public would be strange, saying both in a workplace is unacceptable.

stoptalkingshit 13y ago

Piss off. All this bullshit about people taking some personal attribute or behavior and insisting that it's a major part of their "identity" is nothing more than a defense mechanism for losers.

lilsunnybee 13y ago
Oh God. Really?