6 ms·

The Future of Brain Implants

52 points by wikiburner 13y ago

personlurking 13y ago
At first such implants will likely be high cost and therefore only available to the wealthy, making them our betters. Contrast that now with having the latest tech (like an iphone), which may have its own benefits but not necessarily make one better for owning it.
- melling 13y ago
  Just like most tech, it starts off extremely expensive then drops quite quickly. The human genome project cost $3 billion. The cost now is around $1000. Another order of magnitude price drop within 5 years?
  - personlurking 13y ago
    Of course. Though I wonder if this pattern will change when it comes to the kinds of implants talked about in the article. As an aside, I'm reading a book (Open Veins of Latin America) and it starts out with the history and how the Spaniards barely needed to do anything to wipe out the Amerindians since there was such a wide gap in weapon technology (plus bacteria) between them. An implant which literally makes you a better human might be kept highly priced, like a Ferrari, which doesn't come down in price after a few years. If anyone wants to see this mostly played out in a tv show, Almost Human (episode 10) introduces the notion of "chromes" who are genetically enhanced humans. Inherently better than regular humans, the show has them preferring their own company rather than mixing with regular folk. I'm hoping they'll expand on the concept in further episodes.
    - melling 13y ago
      Cars don't follow Moore's Law. Nothing about them improves by 2x over 18-24 months. The material costs also prevent a lower limit in cost. Btw, Almost Human might be cancelled. Better support it if you want another season.
    - maxerickson 13y ago
      A Ferrari really is somewhat exotic (not just the design, the materials and amount of craftsmanship that is used in the manufacturing process). So the price is high, but it isn't all artificial. A technological solution to the implant problem is unlikely to encounter the craftsmanship problem (it may, but I'm thinking that a key aspect of making it work well would be removing the skill of a neurosurgeon from the process).
- caycep 13y ago
  Well...depends. IF it's non-medically necessary, then yes. DBS and other devices with medical indications, should bear the cost of a medical copay or deductible. (DBS itself is covered by most insurances for Parkinson's, tremor, dystonia, and OCD).
ds9 13y ago
"What would you give for a retinal chip that let you see in the dark or for a next-generation cochlear implant ... a memory chip, wired directly into your brain's hippocampus, ... an implanted interface with the Internet ..." As long as I don't have to "give" anything to remain free from implants, I'll watch the technology with interest, and maybe consider something when it's perfected and fully under the user's control. If on the other hand, there is any effort to impose this sort of thing on unwilling people, there will be widespread violent resistance (a prediction, not a threat).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- greatdox 13y ago
  This Kindle eBook was written in 2003 and self-published in 2010 on Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/America-The-Enslaved-Neurochip-ebook/dp/B007LAX6YY http://www.amazon.com/America-The-Enslaved-Neurochip-ebook/d... In the future 2032 the US government passes an N-Chip law putting neurochips in the brains of the mentally ill and people with a criminal history in trying to control them. The two main characters got tricked into making the chip and this megacorp modified it. It has backdoors to shock the brain unconscious or to death. People rebel and protest, and are killed by security guards and police with neurorifles that activate the backdoor in the chip. Free for Prime members, otherwise 99 cents. A good sci fi story but needs work on grammar and other stuff.
  - Roboprog 13y ago
    See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man's_War#BrainPal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man's_War#BrainPal A computer grafted into your brain. Of course there are one or two back doors, although that is not the focus of the stories.
XorNot 13y ago
The real problem with brain implants is that they are still high risk. You do not want to do them unless you have no other options. There's no way to put them in without inherently causing some amount of tissue damage - so you're committed to brain damage occurring at the moment. And once in, the good ones, you can't take out - neurons grow into them and trying to pull them out will take a chunk of tissue with them. If there's ever going to be a significant uptake in such technology, these are all issues we have to solve - i.e. we need a way of getting them wired in non-destructively, and a way to undo that non-destructively. That's well into science fiction realms - nanotechnological wiring which carefully weaves between cells and the like.
- jessriedel 13y ago
  > neurons grow into them and trying to pull them out will take a chunk of tissue with them. Do you have a cite for this?
  - XorNot 13y ago
    I could dig one up, but basically it was something which happened when they tried to - and succeeded at - solving the immune rejection problem with the glass ones. Modifying the surface to prevent a layer of scar tissue building up made the implants much more capable, but the consequence was that they were now bonded to the brain permanently essentially. Never used in people - but the point stands - making a good connection to the brain involves something similar.
- dm2 13y ago
  It wouldn't be necessary to pull one out unless you needed to increase the bandwidth of the connection. A BCI would probably be able to be unplugged. There is also no reason that it couldn't be wireless. http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/149879-brown-university-creates-first-wireless-implanted-brain-computer-interface http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/149879-brown-university-c... As far as putting them in it isn't 100% necessary to damage the brain when installing one. The BCI connection could "grow" around and into a part of the brain to create the connection. Safety would be the #1 concern when building the implants, so even if something went wrong hopefully the damage would be limited or non-existent.
kgarten 13y ago
The problem with any implants ... how to upgrade? I don't believe much in implantables. We can augment us with wearable tech just fine. The disadvantages of implants are way higher than the advantages (in foreseeable future): potential infections, how to upgrade etc.
- dm2 13y ago
  The first ones probably won't be easy to upgrade. The far from future ones will be so advanced that they will upgrade themselves or "grow". The BCIs that can be upgraded can either be plugged in and unplugged to be upgraded or could be wireless.
  - clef 13y ago
    That's a very good one, and We already have brain "implants"that can be upgraded, they are called "laptops" or "tablets", the difference is they are no directly linked to the brain. I wonder if the intermediate state will be to have a kind of "Bluetooth" implant that can communicate with those portable devices before the devices becomes more synthetic/organic and can be seamlessly integrated in the human body.
    - dm2 13y ago
      I think a brain implant requires a BCI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interfac... Yes, wireless would be possible but the connection to the brain and speaking the same language are the biggest hurdles. There is a ton of cool stuff that will become available in the medical industry in the next few years. There's no reason why we can't have a miniature "factory" inside of our bodies to regulate levels of everything and even create cures for diseases or viruses that might infect us. Monitoring the body will also become more popular. A few small sensors throughout the body to monitor vitals and any information available about the human body via your phone. It's coming soon, just be patient and don't vote for people who will suppress technological research and progress.
- caycep 13y ago
octopuscell 13y ago
The year 2000 predicted in 1910: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sGYULzoQCgA/RuSSRaUYz8I/AAAAAAAABC4/WiaKbdhqWRE/s1600-h/At+the+School.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sGYULzoQCgA/RuSSRaUYz8I/AAAAAAAABC... (from www.paleofuture.com)
ingenter 13y ago
What really scares my about this concept is corporations having control over device in my head, as they do now with phones.
malandrew 13y ago
How does one get involved with the computer science aspect of measuring bodily responses that can be used to control devices? i.e. what sites have electronics projects where you use body sensors as the input to other processes? My thinking here is that this is going to be a huge area of science in the next 5-10 years and I kind of wouldn't mind getting involved with this stuff now as a hobby.
- caycep 13y ago
  let me see...off the top of my head (incomplete since it's late in the afternoon and i need a coffee) Sensors: most CS programs seem to have them. USC has an interactive division ("ISC"? they're over in Playa Vista). UCLA seems to have some programs. The CS people probably know who's doing what w/ the kinect and related hardware better than I. Northwestern has a group that's doing myoelectric signals for prosthetics. Caltech has a lot of people working on a lot of things The brain-machine-interface folks have groups in Berkeley/stanford/mass general and Brown... For DBS, Case Western, UMN, Duke, Emory have good research groups. USCD has a huge amount of neuro/CS people - more basic stuff like computational modeling and theoretical projects, but I think they are getting very well known for this sort of thing. OHSU has some collaboration with intel for health sensors/kinetics.

52 points by wikiburner 13y ago

At first such implants will likely be high cost and therefore only available to the wealthy, making them our betters. Contrast that now with having the latest tech (like an iphone), which may have its own benefits but not necessarily make one better for owning it.

melling 13y ago
Just like most tech, it starts off extremely expensive then drops quite quickly. The human genome project cost $3 billion. The cost now is around $1000. Another order of magnitude price drop within 5 years?
- personlurking 13y ago
  Of course. Though I wonder if this pattern will change when it comes to the kinds of implants talked about in the article. As an aside, I'm reading a book (Open Veins of Latin America) and it starts out with the history and how the Spaniards barely needed to do anything to wipe out the Amerindians since there was such a wide gap in weapon technology (plus bacteria) between them. An implant which literally makes you a better human might be kept highly priced, like a Ferrari, which doesn't come down in price after a few years. If anyone wants to see this mostly played out in a tv show, Almost Human (episode 10) introduces the notion of "chromes" who are genetically enhanced humans. Inherently better than regular humans, the show has them preferring their own company rather than mixing with regular folk. I'm hoping they'll expand on the concept in further episodes.
  - melling 13y ago
    Cars don't follow Moore's Law. Nothing about them improves by 2x over 18-24 months. The material costs also prevent a lower limit in cost. Btw, Almost Human might be cancelled. Better support it if you want another season.
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    A Ferrari really is somewhat exotic (not just the design, the materials and amount of craftsmanship that is used in the manufacturing process). So the price is high, but it isn't all artificial. A technological solution to the implant problem is unlikely to encounter the craftsmanship problem (it may, but I'm thinking that a key aspect of making it work well would be removing the skill of a neurosurgeon from the process).
caycep 13y ago
Well...depends. IF it's non-medically necessary, then yes. DBS and other devices with medical indications, should bear the cost of a medical copay or deductible. (DBS itself is covered by most insurances for Parkinson's, tremor, dystonia, and OCD).

ds9 13y ago

"What would you give for a retinal chip that let you see in the dark or for a next-generation cochlear implant ... a memory chip, wired directly into your brain's hippocampus, ... an implanted interface with the Internet ..." As long as I don't have to "give" anything to remain free from implants, I'll watch the technology with interest, and maybe consider something when it's perfected and fully under the user's control. If on the other hand, there is any effort to impose this sort of thing on unwilling people, there will be widespread violent resistance (a prediction, not a threat).

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
greatdox 13y ago
This Kindle eBook was written in 2003 and self-published in 2010 on Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/America-The-Enslaved-Neurochip-ebook/dp/B007LAX6YY http://www.amazon.com/America-The-Enslaved-Neurochip-ebook/d... In the future 2032 the US government passes an N-Chip law putting neurochips in the brains of the mentally ill and people with a criminal history in trying to control them. The two main characters got tricked into making the chip and this megacorp modified it. It has backdoors to shock the brain unconscious or to death. People rebel and protest, and are killed by security guards and police with neurorifles that activate the backdoor in the chip. Free for Prime members, otherwise 99 cents. A good sci fi story but needs work on grammar and other stuff.
- Roboprog 13y ago
  See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man's_War#BrainPal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man's_War#BrainPal A computer grafted into your brain. Of course there are one or two back doors, although that is not the focus of the stories.

XorNot 13y ago

The real problem with brain implants is that they are still high risk. You do not want to do them unless you have no other options. There's no way to put them in without inherently causing some amount of tissue damage - so you're committed to brain damage occurring at the moment. And once in, the good ones, you can't take out - neurons grow into them and trying to pull them out will take a chunk of tissue with them. If there's ever going to be a significant uptake in such technology, these are all issues we have to solve - i.e. we need a way of getting them wired in non-destructively, and a way to undo that non-destructively. That's well into science fiction realms - nanotechnological wiring which carefully weaves between cells and the like.

jessriedel 13y ago
> neurons grow into them and trying to pull them out will take a chunk of tissue with them. Do you have a cite for this?
- XorNot 13y ago
  I could dig one up, but basically it was something which happened when they tried to - and succeeded at - solving the immune rejection problem with the glass ones. Modifying the surface to prevent a layer of scar tissue building up made the implants much more capable, but the consequence was that they were now bonded to the brain permanently essentially. Never used in people - but the point stands - making a good connection to the brain involves something similar.
dm2 13y ago
It wouldn't be necessary to pull one out unless you needed to increase the bandwidth of the connection. A BCI would probably be able to be unplugged. There is also no reason that it couldn't be wireless. http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/149879-brown-university-creates-first-wireless-implanted-brain-computer-interface http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/149879-brown-university-c... As far as putting them in it isn't 100% necessary to damage the brain when installing one. The BCI connection could "grow" around and into a part of the brain to create the connection. Safety would be the #1 concern when building the implants, so even if something went wrong hopefully the damage would be limited or non-existent.

kgarten 13y ago

The problem with any implants ... how to upgrade? I don't believe much in implantables. We can augment us with wearable tech just fine. The disadvantages of implants are way higher than the advantages (in foreseeable future): potential infections, how to upgrade etc.

dm2 13y ago
The first ones probably won't be easy to upgrade. The far from future ones will be so advanced that they will upgrade themselves or "grow". The BCIs that can be upgraded can either be plugged in and unplugged to be upgraded or could be wireless.
- clef 13y ago
  That's a very good one, and We already have brain "implants"that can be upgraded, they are called "laptops" or "tablets", the difference is they are no directly linked to the brain. I wonder if the intermediate state will be to have a kind of "Bluetooth" implant that can communicate with those portable devices before the devices becomes more synthetic/organic and can be seamlessly integrated in the human body.
  - dm2 13y ago
    I think a brain implant requires a BCI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interfac... Yes, wireless would be possible but the connection to the brain and speaking the same language are the biggest hurdles. There is a ton of cool stuff that will become available in the medical industry in the next few years. There's no reason why we can't have a miniature "factory" inside of our bodies to regulate levels of everything and even create cures for diseases or viruses that might infect us. Monitoring the body will also become more popular. A few small sensors throughout the body to monitor vitals and any information available about the human body via your phone. It's coming soon, just be patient and don't vote for people who will suppress technological research and progress.
caycep 13y ago

octopuscell 13y ago

The year 2000 predicted in 1910: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sGYULzoQCgA/RuSSRaUYz8I/AAAAAAAABC4/WiaKbdhqWRE/s1600-h/At+the+School.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sGYULzoQCgA/RuSSRaUYz8I/AAAAAAAABC... (from www.paleofuture.com)

ingenter 13y ago

What really scares my about this concept is corporations having control over device in my head, as they do now with phones.

malandrew 13y ago

How does one get involved with the computer science aspect of measuring bodily responses that can be used to control devices? i.e. what sites have electronics projects where you use body sensors as the input to other processes? My thinking here is that this is going to be a huge area of science in the next 5-10 years and I kind of wouldn't mind getting involved with this stuff now as a hobby.

caycep 13y ago
let me see...off the top of my head (incomplete since it's late in the afternoon and i need a coffee) Sensors: most CS programs seem to have them. USC has an interactive division ("ISC"? they're over in Playa Vista). UCLA seems to have some programs. The CS people probably know who's doing what w/ the kinect and related hardware better than I. Northwestern has a group that's doing myoelectric signals for prosthetics. Caltech has a lot of people working on a lot of things The brain-machine-interface folks have groups in Berkeley/stanford/mass general and Brown... For DBS, Case Western, UMN, Duke, Emory have good research groups. USCD has a huge amount of neuro/CS people - more basic stuff like computational modeling and theoretical projects, but I think they are getting very well known for this sort of thing. OHSU has some collaboration with intel for health sensors/kinetics.