9 ms·

Developer quits GitHub due to harassment

78 points by sibartlett 13y ago

sibartlett 13y ago
See the rest of her related tweets: https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore
danabenson 13y ago
Here is one of her blog posts expressing frustration, although still vague: http://julieannhorvath.com/2013/03/22/there-is-no-emoji-for-martyrdom.html http://julieannhorvath.com/2013/03/22/there-is-no-emoji-for-...
- zaqokm 13y ago
  going by that post it seems that for some reason she thinks it is appropriate to use the word "Fuck" on stage and inappropriate for people to complain about it. That seems a little backwards to me.
  - insteadof 13y ago
    That post is more about audiences who, when men and women talk and cuss the same, are shocked, wilting like flowers. They expect the women to be sweet, dainty and lady-like. The whole of: When men cuss on stage, they're commanding. When women cuss on stage, they're unprofessional.
    - zaqokm 13y ago
      > That post is more about audiences who, when men and women talk and cuss the same, are shocked, wilting like flowers. They expect the women to be sweet, dainty and lady-like. I understood the context may be that or made out to be that, but in reality it isn't really appropriate for anyone. I am sure men have been criticised for the same thing, so I do not believe it is some sexiest ideology. It may be that some people believe that speakers should be professional.
  - danso 13y ago
    Yeah, if only she knew that the proper form of the word, for public talks, is "fucking", as demonstrated by Zach Holman, senior Github engineer http://zachholman.com/talk/if-only-i-knew-this-shit-in-college/ http://zachholman.com/talk/if-only-i-knew-this-shit-in-colle...
    - bjxrn 13y ago
      Well, "fuck" is okay too (for some people apparently). As in "Fuck you, pay me" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U (not by anyone from github, but still industry related).
      - IbJacked 13y ago
        Awesome, I must thank you for that link. I've thought about it several times over the past year, but could not remember his name or the video's title. So, thank you.
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    This is a company whose presentations have used the word “fuck” on more than one occasion, who just today have released a blog entry that discusses their chatrooms and how often the word “fuck” was said, including how often by their Hubot, (“our robot has something of a potty mouth”), so if that was the claim, I think she’d feel justified in expressing a little surprise.
    - zaqokm 13y ago
      > This is a company whose presentations have used the word “fuck” on more than one occasion Hey I understand your position, but she is criticising the "bullies" (whom I gather are audience members) in that statement, not the company. The irony of this is she goes on to mention Adria Richards who became infamous for tweeting the private conversation of two people whose language was also inappropriate, and suggesting it was a difficult time for Richards. So I am confused by the messaging in the post, it is ok to say "Fuck" but wrong to criticise someone for saying it, but it is ok to criticise someone for innuendo for forking a repo.
      - dalke 13y ago
        Umm, conversations in a public meeting which are easily overheard by others are not private conversation. To have a reasonable expectation of privacy in an otherwise public area, one must make some sort of effort to establish that privacy. For example, by speaking so softly that no one else can listen in without technological means, or move to a room with solid doors and walls so that the eavesdropper must place one's ear against the door to hear the conversation. This applies everywhere. Homes are considered private areas, and having sex is (usually) considered a private act. But if I hear my neighbors talking dirty while having sex, then if I want I can complain to them or tell others about the problem, even if they mean for it to be a private act in a private area. You see this breakdown of public/private conversations all the time. Someone talking on a cell phone while on a bus may consider the conversation private, but if 1/2 the bus can hear the speaker, it's certainly not private even if the custom is to ignore the speaker.
        deleted 13y ago
danso 13y ago
A couple of Tweets to note: 1. The OP has not yet explained what happened but says a blog post is on its way: https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444649347037155329 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444649347037155329 > I'm done keeping quiet and will be writing about my experiences soon. 2. Part of the problem stems from this Secret post that apparently refers to her: https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160 My own opinion: unrelated to the issue at hand, but I'm sad at how technology in the world's brightest innovation sector is being used as I imagine it would be among high schoolers who had the power to invent and acquire millions in funding.
- Chikkient 13y ago
  My own opinion: She is a terrible person to work with, in response to this [1] outing of her behind the scenes behavior decided to deflect everything back at GitHub with public tantrum filled with false allegations. https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - notahat 13y ago
    What information is your opinion based on?
    - obeid 13y ago
      It wouldn't matter, nothing credible will come from an anonymous account that was created an hour ago.
vladgur 13y ago
harassment is a pretty strong word in my opinion, so I hope she proceeds with blogging as to what constituted that harassment and why she endured it for so long. On other hand if she was so bad as the Secret screenshot claims, why wasnt she fired. Of course this whole incident could be a result of a slow firing process where the employer has to collect enough documentation in order to protect itself from any discrimination lawsuit. Of course truth be told we simply may never find out what really happened since each party will try to protect its image.
- helpful 13y ago
  CA is an at-will employment state. She can be let go without a reason and it would be insanely difficult to prove discrimination occurred as a result
- Giraffenstein 13y ago
  >each party will try to protect its image. Horvath isn't so much protecting her image as she is heaping dirt upon it. She's allegedly harassed in the workplace, and the first place she goes to is Twitter? Nowhere in the flowchart of "how to deal with workplace issues" will you find a square that says "whine on Twitter." "Blog about it" is also conspicuously absent.
  - dalke 13y ago
    Flowcharts are only guides, not requirements. The law is very clear. Complaints about harassment are not constrained to only a specific set of actions. Quoting from http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/retal.html http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/retal.html : A complaint or protest about alleged employment discrimination to a manager, union official, co-worker, company EEO official, attorney, newspaper reporter, Congressperson, or anyone else constitutes opposition. ... A complaint about an employment practice constitutes protected opposition only if the individual explicitly or implicitly communicates a belief that the practice constitutes unlawful employment discrimination\13. Because individuals often may not know the specific requirements of the anti-discrimination laws enforced by the EEOC, they may make broad or ambiguous complaints of unfair treatment. Such a protest is protected opposition if the complaint would reasonably have been interpreted as opposition to employment discrimination. "Whine on Twitter" and "Blog about it" are examples of "a complaint or protest .. [to] anyone else", and so constitutes opposition. If "harassment" here was meant to imply discriminatory treatment on the basis of sex - which seems to be the general consensus of this thread - then it would easily fall under "broad or ambiguous complaints of unfair treatment." You can make up whatever ideas you want on what someone should or shouldn't do, but if you read the actual court cases you'll find that your views would protect workplaces with illegal discriminatory practices, including workplaces which actively support sexual harassment.
vladgur 13y ago
btw, she seems like a very driven and talented lady: she made a move from a marketing intern in 2010 to a marketing manager to a designer and finally(not represented in her LinkedIn profile) to a developer at Github. I have no doubt of her abilities since Im assuming Github is pretty good at their interviews. Its too bad something got broken professionally or personally that resulted in this outcry
theorique 13y ago
What's actually going on? Lots of people seem to be taking the opportunity to jump on Github for "toxic culture" and so forth, but until we know what actually happened, they seem to be jumping to conclusions. Some people might call this victim blaming, but until we find out who the actual victim(s) is/are in the situation, how can we know who is to blame? A company could be the victim of a disgruntled ex-employee who wants to drag the company's name through the mud. And a company could have treated an ex-employee bad enough that she quit. The uninvolved public simply don't know enough facts to take a side one way or the other.
- ethnt 13y ago
  To be honest, we may never get the full truth here. Both sides have their reputation to uphold.
  - theorique 13y ago
    There's a lot of vague-tweeting and theatrical "showing support" for both sides. Which is fine, and expected, when beefs like this go down, I suppose. Not knowing any of the parties involved, I just can't pretend to know more about this than what is publicly visible, which is essentially nothing.
    - nailer 13y ago
      I haven't seen anyone 'showing support' for github. Just 'being disappointed' in them.
betterman 13y ago
Judging from her posts, she's the kind of woman who likes playing the victim and enjoys generating drama. The tech world seems to be full of them lately, how sad. Part of the reason is that nobody wants to call them for what they are, for fear of being accused of sexism. (Good thing I don't give a damn what you think.) Github is a better place without her.
- nthmost 13y ago
  Judging from your comment, you're exactly the kind of guy making the tech world a shitty place for women. You "don't give a damn" because you don't have to give a damn. http://www.checkmyprivilege.com/ http://www.checkmyprivilege.com/
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- BiteMeBetterman 13y ago
  If you "don't give a damn", then post your real name here and reveal proudly post this same exact comment on all your public accounts. Hypocrite. The Internet is a better place without you.
microjesus 13y ago
There are no facts available. This is sensationalist piece, move along.

78 points by sibartlett 13y ago

See the rest of her related tweets: https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore

Here is one of her blog posts expressing frustration, although still vague: http://julieannhorvath.com/2013/03/22/there-is-no-emoji-for-martyrdom.html http://julieannhorvath.com/2013/03/22/there-is-no-emoji-for-...

zaqokm 13y ago
going by that post it seems that for some reason she thinks it is appropriate to use the word "Fuck" on stage and inappropriate for people to complain about it. That seems a little backwards to me.
- insteadof 13y ago
  That post is more about audiences who, when men and women talk and cuss the same, are shocked, wilting like flowers. They expect the women to be sweet, dainty and lady-like. The whole of: When men cuss on stage, they're commanding. When women cuss on stage, they're unprofessional.
  - zaqokm 13y ago
    > That post is more about audiences who, when men and women talk and cuss the same, are shocked, wilting like flowers. They expect the women to be sweet, dainty and lady-like. I understood the context may be that or made out to be that, but in reality it isn't really appropriate for anyone. I am sure men have been criticised for the same thing, so I do not believe it is some sexiest ideology. It may be that some people believe that speakers should be professional.
- danso 13y ago
  Yeah, if only she knew that the proper form of the word, for public talks, is "fucking", as demonstrated by Zach Holman, senior Github engineer http://zachholman.com/talk/if-only-i-knew-this-shit-in-college/ http://zachholman.com/talk/if-only-i-knew-this-shit-in-colle...
  - bjxrn 13y ago
    Well, "fuck" is okay too (for some people apparently). As in "Fuck you, pay me" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U (not by anyone from github, but still industry related).
    - IbJacked 13y ago
      Awesome, I must thank you for that link. I've thought about it several times over the past year, but could not remember his name or the video's title. So, thank you.
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  This is a company whose presentations have used the word “fuck” on more than one occasion, who just today have released a blog entry that discusses their chatrooms and how often the word “fuck” was said, including how often by their Hubot, (“our robot has something of a potty mouth”), so if that was the claim, I think she’d feel justified in expressing a little surprise.
  - zaqokm 13y ago
    > This is a company whose presentations have used the word “fuck” on more than one occasion Hey I understand your position, but she is criticising the "bullies" (whom I gather are audience members) in that statement, not the company. The irony of this is she goes on to mention Adria Richards who became infamous for tweeting the private conversation of two people whose language was also inappropriate, and suggesting it was a difficult time for Richards. So I am confused by the messaging in the post, it is ok to say "Fuck" but wrong to criticise someone for saying it, but it is ok to criticise someone for innuendo for forking a repo.
    - dalke 13y ago
      Umm, conversations in a public meeting which are easily overheard by others are not private conversation. To have a reasonable expectation of privacy in an otherwise public area, one must make some sort of effort to establish that privacy. For example, by speaking so softly that no one else can listen in without technological means, or move to a room with solid doors and walls so that the eavesdropper must place one's ear against the door to hear the conversation. This applies everywhere. Homes are considered private areas, and having sex is (usually) considered a private act. But if I hear my neighbors talking dirty while having sex, then if I want I can complain to them or tell others about the problem, even if they mean for it to be a private act in a private area. You see this breakdown of public/private conversations all the time. Someone talking on a cell phone while on a bus may consider the conversation private, but if 1/2 the bus can hear the speaker, it's certainly not private even if the custom is to ignore the speaker.
      - deleted 13y ago

danso 13y ago

A couple of Tweets to note: 1. The OP has not yet explained what happened but says a blog post is on its way: https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444649347037155329 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444649347037155329 > I'm done keeping quiet and will be writing about my experiences soon. 2. Part of the problem stems from this Secret post that apparently refers to her: https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160 My own opinion: unrelated to the issue at hand, but I'm sad at how technology in the world's brightest innovation sector is being used as I imagine it would be among high schoolers who had the power to invent and acquire millions in funding.

Chikkient 13y ago
My own opinion: She is a terrible person to work with, in response to this [1] outing of her behind the scenes behavior decided to deflect everything back at GitHub with public tantrum filled with false allegations. https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- notahat 13y ago
  What information is your opinion based on?
  - obeid 13y ago
    It wouldn't matter, nothing credible will come from an anonymous account that was created an hour ago.

vladgur 13y ago

harassment is a pretty strong word in my opinion, so I hope she proceeds with blogging as to what constituted that harassment and why she endured it for so long. On other hand if she was so bad as the Secret screenshot claims, why wasnt she fired. Of course this whole incident could be a result of a slow firing process where the employer has to collect enough documentation in order to protect itself from any discrimination lawsuit. Of course truth be told we simply may never find out what really happened since each party will try to protect its image.

helpful 13y ago
CA is an at-will employment state. She can be let go without a reason and it would be insanely difficult to prove discrimination occurred as a result
Giraffenstein 13y ago
>each party will try to protect its image. Horvath isn't so much protecting her image as she is heaping dirt upon it. She's allegedly harassed in the workplace, and the first place she goes to is Twitter? Nowhere in the flowchart of "how to deal with workplace issues" will you find a square that says "whine on Twitter." "Blog about it" is also conspicuously absent.
- dalke 13y ago
  Flowcharts are only guides, not requirements. The law is very clear. Complaints about harassment are not constrained to only a specific set of actions. Quoting from http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/retal.html http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/retal.html : A complaint or protest about alleged employment discrimination to a manager, union official, co-worker, company EEO official, attorney, newspaper reporter, Congressperson, or anyone else constitutes opposition. ... A complaint about an employment practice constitutes protected opposition only if the individual explicitly or implicitly communicates a belief that the practice constitutes unlawful employment discrimination\13. Because individuals often may not know the specific requirements of the anti-discrimination laws enforced by the EEOC, they may make broad or ambiguous complaints of unfair treatment. Such a protest is protected opposition if the complaint would reasonably have been interpreted as opposition to employment discrimination. "Whine on Twitter" and "Blog about it" are examples of "a complaint or protest .. [to] anyone else", and so constitutes opposition. If "harassment" here was meant to imply discriminatory treatment on the basis of sex - which seems to be the general consensus of this thread - then it would easily fall under "broad or ambiguous complaints of unfair treatment." You can make up whatever ideas you want on what someone should or shouldn't do, but if you read the actual court cases you'll find that your views would protect workplaces with illegal discriminatory practices, including workplaces which actively support sexual harassment.

vladgur 13y ago

btw, she seems like a very driven and talented lady: she made a move from a marketing intern in 2010 to a marketing manager to a designer and finally(not represented in her LinkedIn profile) to a developer at Github. I have no doubt of her abilities since Im assuming Github is pretty good at their interviews. Its too bad something got broken professionally or personally that resulted in this outcry

theorique 13y ago

What's actually going on? Lots of people seem to be taking the opportunity to jump on Github for "toxic culture" and so forth, but until we know what actually happened, they seem to be jumping to conclusions. Some people might call this victim blaming, but until we find out who the actual victim(s) is/are in the situation, how can we know who is to blame? A company could be the victim of a disgruntled ex-employee who wants to drag the company's name through the mud. And a company could have treated an ex-employee bad enough that she quit. The uninvolved public simply don't know enough facts to take a side one way or the other.

ethnt 13y ago
To be honest, we may never get the full truth here. Both sides have their reputation to uphold.
- theorique 13y ago
  There's a lot of vague-tweeting and theatrical "showing support" for both sides. Which is fine, and expected, when beefs like this go down, I suppose. Not knowing any of the parties involved, I just can't pretend to know more about this than what is publicly visible, which is essentially nothing.
  - nailer 13y ago
    I haven't seen anyone 'showing support' for github. Just 'being disappointed' in them.

betterman 13y ago

Judging from her posts, she's the kind of woman who likes playing the victim and enjoys generating drama. The tech world seems to be full of them lately, how sad. Part of the reason is that nobody wants to call them for what they are, for fear of being accused of sexism. (Good thing I don't give a damn what you think.) Github is a better place without her.

nthmost 13y ago
Judging from your comment, you're exactly the kind of guy making the tech world a shitty place for women. You "don't give a damn" because you don't have to give a damn. http://www.checkmyprivilege.com/ http://www.checkmyprivilege.com/
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
BiteMeBetterman 13y ago
If you "don't give a damn", then post your real name here and reveal proudly post this same exact comment on all your public accounts. Hypocrite. The Internet is a better place without you.

microjesus 13y ago

There are no facts available. This is sensationalist piece, move along.