10 ms·

MMM Receives Legal Threats

309 points by danvideo 13y ago

eli 13y ago
Sounds like they would be pretty foolish to proceed with a lawsuit, doubly so if MMM happens to be in a state with a strong Anti-SLAPP law.
- lesserj 13y ago
  MMM is in Colorado, which does have statutory protections against SLAPP [1] [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation#United_States_2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publi...
k3oni 13y ago
Well that was a good read. Seems that someone needs to learn how the internet works. Just put it on reddit and watch the Streisand effect in action :).
- tzaman 13y ago
  It got here, so I think the effect is already well under way :)
  - k3oni 13y ago
    Right, but HN crowd is a bit more "classy". Now reddit on thee other hand.. you know how they work :)
xacaxulu 13y ago
MMM is handling this like pros! Hopefully this will serve as a blueprint for future people in similar situations.
- danvideo 13y ago
  Maybe MMM site is a good place for it, maybe not - but the idea sounds great - to have a place where people can submit info about when this happens to them as well to publicize and share advice.
  - electic 13y ago
    I agree. These stories are very entertaining. There should a site for this type of stuff.
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    http://www.chillingeffects.org/ http://www.chillingeffects.org/
- atomical 13y ago
  MMM says there isn't "much" merit to the claim. So there is some merit apparently. This isn't a blueprint for handling anything. He hasn't determined with any certainty if the post is libelous but is charging ahead full force to defend it? It doesn't make sense.
  - tunesmith 13y ago
    He doesn't know if there's merit to the claim that the offending comment was libelous. The offending comment said kisstrust was a "scam" when they apparently meant that the kisstrust offer simply added no value to a tool that is already available to consumers for less cost. It appears he does know/believe, however, that there is no merit to the claim that MMM is responsible for the content of a comment in his forums.
tanon500 13y ago
Organization who allegedly asked the lawyer to take action: http://www.kisstrust.com/ http://www.kisstrust.com/ * Maybe this was just an incompetent attorney, but regardless, taking legal action against a website for a comment posted really demonstrates that the company isn't capable of using its good reputation to handle the situation, and therefore lacks said reputation. Can't compete on the merits - GTFO. /rant
- dubfan 13y ago
  They seem to have a history of playing fast and loose with the law. See this thread on Bogleheads where forum posters discovered they took a forum member's post, put it on their site as a "review" with no link to the original thread, and had the gall to claim the text was "public domain": http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952 http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952
- trillium 13y ago
  The site appears to be down.
gesman 13y ago
There is no doubt you'll get flooded with offers to help. Someone reasonable, knowledgeable and efficient is going to have a good time.
final_approach 13y ago
Slightly offtopic, but oddly enough MMM is also a name of the most famous Russian ponzi scheme from the 90s. Laughed a little bit, but no parallels, of course. All the luck to this blog.
tdees40 13y ago
Looks like this has already made it to the Wikipedia page for Kiss Trust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Trust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Trust
- dmm 13y ago
  50.204.172.183 seems intent on changing the wording to be more favourable to kiss trust.
  - dubfan 13y ago
    That IP resolves to a Comcast Business connection in Warrenton, VA. Guess where kisstrust.com's WHOIS record shows they are located?
    - patdennis 13y ago
      That's where the Kiss Trust's attorney is located, according to the posted letter.
- gesman 13y ago
  ... and Wikipedia is fine with it: "This article appears to be written like an advertisement. Please help improve it ..." WTF?
  - r00fus 13y ago
    Likely the article (likely prior to the edit to link to the threat against MMM) was not NPOV enough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
- Danieru 13y ago
  It looks like someone from Kiss Trust (are scammers) has been helping "maintain" the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/50.204.172.183 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/50.204.1...
TrainedMonkey 13y ago
Well this one should be slam dunk to dismiss unless they file lawsuit in Texas eastern circuit court.
- Zancarius 13y ago
  I think you misspelled "circus."
  - TrainedMonkey 13y ago
    In original context those words are synonymous, so correction need not apply.
    - Zancarius 13y ago
      You raise a fantastic point, my friend.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  Presumably, this a reference to the US District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, and apparently the reputation of E.D. Tex. relating to its popularity for patent litigation based on the way its patent-specific local rules has become generalized even further.
rejectedstone 13y ago
I was surprised to see their site is still up. Making the internet mad at you, doesn't typically end well.
- dsjoerg 13y ago
  ...and it's down.
Paul12345534 13y ago
Popehat
ilbe 13y ago
Will the original thread about KISS Trust be restored?
- lesserj 13y ago
  According to the blog post, they have restored the thread, however their database appears to be overloaded at the moment. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-trust-has-sent-a-legal-threat-to-this-blog/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-tru...
  - darkarmani 13y ago
    From google's cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjWB6DYJ:www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-trust-has-sent-a-legal-threat-to-this-blog/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjW...
VMG 13y ago
Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VT0QbIB2VY8J:www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-legal-threats-great-lawyer-wanted/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VT0QbIB...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
kyleblarson 13y ago
Looks like they might also need help scaling a website.
notastartup 13y ago
not sure I understand what's going on here, why are they being threatened legally and who is doing it?
- byoung2 13y ago
  KISS Trust is a company that offers revocable trusts for people. Someone on the MMM forum said that this company was a scam and warned others to stay away. That post made the first page of Google for a search for KISS Trust, and the company noticed. They sent a cease and desist to the blog owner demanding that he take the post down. He refused. Now the company is getting more bad press because of the legal fight than from the original post. It might have been better to create an account and respond to the original poster directly to resolve the issue.
  - newuser10 13y ago
    Just to be clear... The first part of this post is correct. Except that after receiving the legal threat, the blog owner DID remove the offending forum thread. But then the blog owner created a new thread describing the legal threat (can't be libelous to describe a business tactic they've actually employed, can it?), which has led to much additional discussion and bad press. Oh, and there's apparently also a wikipedia editing war going on between the internet and the company PR person. Any guesses on how that one will end? -new user, followed link from MMM blog to get here.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
Marc Randazza or Popehat would make quick work of this fool.
lingben 13y ago
google cache of relevant MMM forum thread (removed): http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjWB6DYJ:www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-trust-has-sent-a-legal-threat-to-this-blog/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjW...
thaumaturgy 13y ago
Ken Popehat (http://www.popehat.com/ http://www.popehat.com/) might be worth contacting. Even if he can't help directly, he might know someone who can. He's about the closest thing the internet has to a folk superhero in law; he has a "Popehat signal" (http://www.popehat.com/tag/popehat-signal/ http://www.popehat.com/tag/popehat-signal/) he uses for a "call for pro bono help for online folks who get threatened with bogus censorious lawsuits" (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1aokls/iama_federal_criminal_defense_attorney_and_former/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1aokls/iama_federal_cr...) and he got involved, at least twice, with a university-area bus company that has tried to silence criticism on Reddit (http://beta.slashdot.org/story/185659 http://beta.slashdot.org/story/185659).
- jplewicke 13y ago
  Luckily, it looks like Mr. Money Mustache is already in touch with Ken from Popehat: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-legal-threats-great-lawyer-wanted/#comment-617916 http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-legal... .
- r00fus 13y ago
  A propos to this is a specific PopeHat post that may be helpful for MMM: http://www.popehat.com/2013/09/26/so-youve-been-threatened-with-a-defamation-suit/ http://www.popehat.com/2013/09/26/so-youve-been-threatened-w...
- chilldream 13y ago
  His name is Ken White. And he tweeted this today: https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/443809025902129152 https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/443809025902129152
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
tomphoolery 13y ago
I highly suggest going the "Something Awful" route, and simply just making fun of the lawyer(s) in question until they stop. People like this should be treated the way they act. Like children.
- mildtrepidation 13y ago
  Unfortunately, treating them dismissively -- while appropriate -- does not help discredit or dissuade them.
  - lotsofmangos 13y ago
    If done skillfully, it makes some of them go full tilt to the extent that they get themselves disbarred for insanely stupid things. Then you have to deal with being hated by a crazy unemployed ex-lawyer, so think twice about doing this if they live nearby.
  - jimbokun 13y ago
    Well I don't know about dissuade, but it has surely already done much to discredit them.
- slig 13y ago
  Wasn't the "The Oatmeal" that made fun of a lawyer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oatmeal_and_FunnyJunk_legal_dispute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oatmeal_and_FunnyJunk_legal...
  - Guvante 13y ago
    He got a lawyer involved first to make sure it wasn't crossing any boundaries with his actions.
  - adorton 13y ago
    Allow me to introduce you to Leonard "J." Crabs. http://www.somethingawful.com/hosted/crabs/ http://www.somethingawful.com/hosted/crabs/ http://www.somethingawful.com/legal-threats/ http://www.somethingawful.com/legal-threats/
cft 13y ago
Try contacting Eric Goldman http://blog.ericgoldman.org/ http://blog.ericgoldman.org/
viggity 13y ago
FWIW, the kisstrust.com website appears to be down (giving a 404). Furthermore, I'd like to express my opinion that these lawyers are a bunch of douchebags.
- Pitarou 13y ago
  Dear Mr. Graham, It has come to our attention that the commenter "viggity" on your "Hacker News" internet discussion forum has suggested that the practising partners at the Law Office of Mark B Williams, PLC are, and I quote, "a bunch of douchebags". My clients at the Intimate Hygiene Manufacturers Association maintain that this is an unfounded slur on their products, and insist that the forum posting and any derived or related content be removed forthwith. Yours etc.
atomical 13y ago
What's wrong with contacting a lawyer if someone is writing things that are blatantly untrue? Has anyone here actually read the posts?
- zevyoura 13y ago
  From the article: "Never mind the fact that Section 230 of Title 47 of the United States Code holds that website owners cannot be held responsible for comments that their users make."
  - peeters 13y ago
    Wouldn't this be somewhat like the DMCA, where the host is only protected if they respond to claims? Or would it take an actual court injunction to order the material to be removed?
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      The plain language of the provision is starkly unconditional. 47 USC Sec. 230(c)(1) specifies: "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
- breischl 13y ago
  They are suing the forum owner/operator for something posted by a forum member. So roughly equivalent to me saying something here, and Paul Graham getting sued for it. Also, the actual quote was "This scam product has been discussed here before. Stay away. It's a marketing ploy." Which I guess may be legally actionable, but given their behavior seems like it's quite likely true.
  - atomical 13y ago
    They would be sued for not taking down the post. If you post something here that is libel then someone can sue to force Paul Graham to take it down. If MMM gets a lawyer he's going to end up defending the content of the post, not his right to operate his site independently.
jimbokun 13y ago
Every time I see another example of frivolous litigation threats like this, I feel like one of the biggest shortcomings of the U.S. justice system is not enough pain inflicted on frivolous litigators. This goes for patent trolling, too, obviously. There should be a healthy fear of filing baseless legal challenges. Disbarment? Large fines? What's the effective remedy here, that doesn't go so far it dissuades legitimate cases?
- atomical 13y ago
  Who decides if they are baseless? From the post MMM can't even decide: "From what I could tell, there wasn’t much merit to their complaint."
  - unclebucknasty 13y ago
    No, the parent is right. My own attorney even describes the current system as extortionate. Even if this claim is not found to be technically frivolous (a legal term that carries a standard), the current system offers little or no penalty to those who use the courts as a bullying tactic. If you say or do something that someone doesn't like, then they just sue you and force you to spend exorbitant amounts of money and time to defend yourself, or otherwise just capitulate to their demands. Even the effort required to show that something is frivolous can be expensive, as the standard is high. The current design absolutely favors those with money. The defendant can win handily but stand very little chance of even recovering their attorney's fees.
  - chilldream 13y ago
    MMM is not a lawyer. As an analogy, consider CFAA and other "hacking" related prosecutions where the layman might not be able to tell if a charge is without merit, but a domain expert acting in good faith can.
- higherpurpose 13y ago
  US should just adopt the European system for lawsuits. You lose, you pay. Yes, it has a downside, as does everything else in the world, but I think the downside is much smaller than the upside (compared to the current US system).
CaptJax 13y ago
As a lawyer who dabbles in IP/cyber law (not admitted in VA, so I can't help out), I really love seeing personal injury/criminal defense attorneys send cease and desist letters to publishers who are clearly protected under federal law.
dbbolton 13y ago
RICO? That may be the most definitively empty legal threat I have ever seen on the internet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corru...
daphneokeefe 13y ago
Aside from this current issue, which has no doubt raised awareness of MMM's website, one of the positive outcomes here is that HN readers may be exposed to some of the most awesomely good advice you will ever receive. Reading his posts has led me to understand that I am not alone by any means in my quest for financial independence, which is true independence. Check out his site -- you can begin with the "Start Here" link on the navbar.
- mberning 13y ago
  I was not aware of the site before today. I looked through a few of the articles and came to the conclusion that it is a borderline religious frugal porn site. You can take a look at the site owners 2013 budget as a prime example. Assuming that your house and car is paid off and that nobody got seriously ill and no other unexpected expenses came up the guy claims to have spent 23k for one year of supporting a family of 3+ (presumably). It is hard to reconcile the claimed budget knowing the reality of supporting onself, even if you disregard things such as rent, car, and medical.
  - raintrees 13y ago
    If I remember the first few articles (I started at the beginning when I found the site, several years ago) Mr. Money Moustache and his wife were able to save radically while working fairly decent jobs. The result being they we able to "retire" very early (20's?) and are offering tips and sharing methodology. So without the background, yes the numbers can seem very low. But with the background, you may find all of the research that went into the home they have (paid for), the retirement accounts they comfortably live on while they continue to grow, and the side jobs he takes for fun (and profit), like buying and rehabbing rental properties alone and with others. Not to mention the healthy lifestyles (why drive when you can bike? Even in Colorado winters?). Similar to any perceived extreme point of view/lifestyle, it has its fans and detractors. There are many who are very thankful for the guidance... But I think it comes down to some basics that the American media (if not others) do not seem to promote very often: Earn well, save a large percentage, keep expenses low, invest well, continue to learn. Question perceived "necessities." YMMV
err4nt 13y ago
Did anybody else notice it said DCMA on the original lawyers letter? these posts infringe on our trademarks and copyrights in violation of the DCMA http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/kisstrust_first_bullshit_letter.jpg http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ki...
mahmoudimus 13y ago
Completely off-topic, but I did not know about this website. Going to check it out as it sounds very useful!
- jiggbenice 13y ago
  Start reading at the very beginning of the blog and carry the thread forward -- I did this last fall when I first discovered it and found that process to be immensely rewarding. And not just because of all the gut laughing that ensued.
6cxs2hd6 13y ago
Second letter: > This will serve as formal notice to preserve all ISP [sic] addresses... To paraphrase Churchill: "I may be drunk, but in the morning I will be sober, whereas you will still be an idiot."
Hawkee 13y ago
This reminds me of a case I was involved in several years ago, http://techcrunch.com/2008/07/17/channel-intelligence-sues-just-about-everyone-who-offers-wishlists/ http://techcrunch.com/2008/07/17/channel-intelligence-sues-j... - It ended up blowing up in their faces. I remember getting the phone number to the CEO of Channel Intelligence and calling him up directly. His response was, "Can you all just stop calling me! We'll fix this, just stop calling me!" I believe they were trying to collect license fees to establish their patent, but in the end they had to give it away for free to everybody involved. Those who wouldn't accept it got no further legal action. 5 years later Google bought Channel Intelligence. Go figure.

309 points by danvideo 13y ago

eli 13y ago

Sounds like they would be pretty foolish to proceed with a lawsuit, doubly so if MMM happens to be in a state with a strong Anti-SLAPP law.

lesserj 13y ago
MMM is in Colorado, which does have statutory protections against SLAPP [1] [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation#United_States_2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publi...

k3oni 13y ago

Well that was a good read. Seems that someone needs to learn how the internet works. Just put it on reddit and watch the Streisand effect in action :).

tzaman 13y ago
It got here, so I think the effect is already well under way :)
- k3oni 13y ago
  Right, but HN crowd is a bit more "classy". Now reddit on thee other hand.. you know how they work :)

xacaxulu 13y ago

MMM is handling this like pros! Hopefully this will serve as a blueprint for future people in similar situations.

danvideo 13y ago
Maybe MMM site is a good place for it, maybe not - but the idea sounds great - to have a place where people can submit info about when this happens to them as well to publicize and share advice.
- electic 13y ago
  I agree. These stories are very entertaining. There should a site for this type of stuff.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  http://www.chillingeffects.org/ http://www.chillingeffects.org/
atomical 13y ago
MMM says there isn't "much" merit to the claim. So there is some merit apparently. This isn't a blueprint for handling anything. He hasn't determined with any certainty if the post is libelous but is charging ahead full force to defend it? It doesn't make sense.
- tunesmith 13y ago
  He doesn't know if there's merit to the claim that the offending comment was libelous. The offending comment said kisstrust was a "scam" when they apparently meant that the kisstrust offer simply added no value to a tool that is already available to consumers for less cost. It appears he does know/believe, however, that there is no merit to the claim that MMM is responsible for the content of a comment in his forums.

tanon500 13y ago

Organization who allegedly asked the lawyer to take action: http://www.kisstrust.com/ http://www.kisstrust.com/ * Maybe this was just an incompetent attorney, but regardless, taking legal action against a website for a comment posted really demonstrates that the company isn't capable of using its good reputation to handle the situation, and therefore lacks said reputation. Can't compete on the merits - GTFO. /rant

dubfan 13y ago
They seem to have a history of playing fast and loose with the law. See this thread on Bogleheads where forum posters discovered they took a forum member's post, put it on their site as a "review" with no link to the original thread, and had the gall to claim the text was "public domain": http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952 http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952
trillium 13y ago
The site appears to be down.

gesman 13y ago

There is no doubt you'll get flooded with offers to help. Someone reasonable, knowledgeable and efficient is going to have a good time.

final_approach 13y ago

Slightly offtopic, but oddly enough MMM is also a name of the most famous Russian ponzi scheme from the 90s. Laughed a little bit, but no parallels, of course. All the luck to this blog.

tdees40 13y ago

Looks like this has already made it to the Wikipedia page for Kiss Trust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Trust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Trust

dmm 13y ago
50.204.172.183 seems intent on changing the wording to be more favourable to kiss trust.
- dubfan 13y ago
  That IP resolves to a Comcast Business connection in Warrenton, VA. Guess where kisstrust.com's WHOIS record shows they are located?
  - patdennis 13y ago
    That's where the Kiss Trust's attorney is located, according to the posted letter.
gesman 13y ago
... and Wikipedia is fine with it: "This article appears to be written like an advertisement. Please help improve it ..." WTF?
- r00fus 13y ago
  Likely the article (likely prior to the edit to link to the threat against MMM) was not NPOV enough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
Danieru 13y ago
It looks like someone from Kiss Trust (are scammers) has been helping "maintain" the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/50.204.172.183 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/50.204.1...

TrainedMonkey 13y ago

Well this one should be slam dunk to dismiss unless they file lawsuit in Texas eastern circuit court.

Zancarius 13y ago
I think you misspelled "circus."
- TrainedMonkey 13y ago
  In original context those words are synonymous, so correction need not apply.
  - Zancarius 13y ago
    You raise a fantastic point, my friend.
dragonwriter 13y ago
Presumably, this a reference to the US District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, and apparently the reputation of E.D. Tex. relating to its popularity for patent litigation based on the way its patent-specific local rules has become generalized even further.

rejectedstone 13y ago

I was surprised to see their site is still up. Making the internet mad at you, doesn't typically end well.

dsjoerg 13y ago
...and it's down.

Paul12345534 13y ago

Popehat

ilbe 13y ago

Will the original thread about KISS Trust be restored?

lesserj 13y ago
According to the blog post, they have restored the thread, however their database appears to be overloaded at the moment. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-trust-has-sent-a-legal-threat-to-this-blog/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-tru...
- darkarmani 13y ago
  From google's cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjWB6DYJ:www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-trust-has-sent-a-legal-threat-to-this-blog/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjW...

VMG 13y ago

Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VT0QbIB2VY8J:www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-legal-threats-great-lawyer-wanted/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VT0QbIB...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

kyleblarson 13y ago

Looks like they might also need help scaling a website.

notastartup 13y ago

not sure I understand what's going on here, why are they being threatened legally and who is doing it?

byoung2 13y ago
KISS Trust is a company that offers revocable trusts for people. Someone on the MMM forum said that this company was a scam and warned others to stay away. That post made the first page of Google for a search for KISS Trust, and the company noticed. They sent a cease and desist to the blog owner demanding that he take the post down. He refused. Now the company is getting more bad press because of the legal fight than from the original post. It might have been better to create an account and respond to the original poster directly to resolve the issue.
- newuser10 13y ago
  Just to be clear... The first part of this post is correct. Except that after receiving the legal threat, the blog owner DID remove the offending forum thread. But then the blog owner created a new thread describing the legal threat (can't be libelous to describe a business tactic they've actually employed, can it?), which has led to much additional discussion and bad press. Oh, and there's apparently also a wikipedia editing war going on between the internet and the company PR person. Any guesses on how that one will end? -new user, followed link from MMM blog to get here.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

Marc Randazza or Popehat would make quick work of this fool.

lingben 13y ago

google cache of relevant MMM forum thread (removed): http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjWB6DYJ:www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-trust-has-sent-a-legal-threat-to-this-blog/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjW...

thaumaturgy 13y ago

Ken Popehat (http://www.popehat.com/ http://www.popehat.com/) might be worth contacting. Even if he can't help directly, he might know someone who can. He's about the closest thing the internet has to a folk superhero in law; he has a "Popehat signal" (http://www.popehat.com/tag/popehat-signal/ http://www.popehat.com/tag/popehat-signal/) he uses for a "call for pro bono help for online folks who get threatened with bogus censorious lawsuits" (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1aokls/iama_federal_criminal_defense_attorney_and_former/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1aokls/iama_federal_cr...) and he got involved, at least twice, with a university-area bus company that has tried to silence criticism on Reddit (http://beta.slashdot.org/story/185659 http://beta.slashdot.org/story/185659).

jplewicke 13y ago
Luckily, it looks like Mr. Money Mustache is already in touch with Ken from Popehat: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-legal-threats-great-lawyer-wanted/#comment-617916 http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-legal... .
r00fus 13y ago
A propos to this is a specific PopeHat post that may be helpful for MMM: http://www.popehat.com/2013/09/26/so-youve-been-threatened-with-a-defamation-suit/ http://www.popehat.com/2013/09/26/so-youve-been-threatened-w...
chilldream 13y ago
His name is Ken White. And he tweeted this today: https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/443809025902129152 https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/443809025902129152

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

tomphoolery 13y ago

I highly suggest going the "Something Awful" route, and simply just making fun of the lawyer(s) in question until they stop. People like this should be treated the way they act. Like children.

mildtrepidation 13y ago
Unfortunately, treating them dismissively -- while appropriate -- does not help discredit or dissuade them.
- lotsofmangos 13y ago
  If done skillfully, it makes some of them go full tilt to the extent that they get themselves disbarred for insanely stupid things. Then you have to deal with being hated by a crazy unemployed ex-lawyer, so think twice about doing this if they live nearby.
- jimbokun 13y ago
  Well I don't know about dissuade, but it has surely already done much to discredit them.
slig 13y ago
Wasn't the "The Oatmeal" that made fun of a lawyer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oatmeal_and_FunnyJunk_legal_dispute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oatmeal_and_FunnyJunk_legal...
- Guvante 13y ago
  He got a lawyer involved first to make sure it wasn't crossing any boundaries with his actions.
- adorton 13y ago
  Allow me to introduce you to Leonard "J." Crabs. http://www.somethingawful.com/hosted/crabs/ http://www.somethingawful.com/hosted/crabs/ http://www.somethingawful.com/legal-threats/ http://www.somethingawful.com/legal-threats/

cft 13y ago

Try contacting Eric Goldman http://blog.ericgoldman.org/ http://blog.ericgoldman.org/

viggity 13y ago

FWIW, the kisstrust.com website appears to be down (giving a 404). Furthermore, I'd like to express my opinion that these lawyers are a bunch of douchebags.

Pitarou 13y ago
Dear Mr. Graham, It has come to our attention that the commenter "viggity" on your "Hacker News" internet discussion forum has suggested that the practising partners at the Law Office of Mark B Williams, PLC are, and I quote, "a bunch of douchebags". My clients at the Intimate Hygiene Manufacturers Association maintain that this is an unfounded slur on their products, and insist that the forum posting and any derived or related content be removed forthwith. Yours etc.

atomical 13y ago

What's wrong with contacting a lawyer if someone is writing things that are blatantly untrue? Has anyone here actually read the posts?

zevyoura 13y ago
From the article: "Never mind the fact that Section 230 of Title 47 of the United States Code holds that website owners cannot be held responsible for comments that their users make."
- peeters 13y ago
  Wouldn't this be somewhat like the DMCA, where the host is only protected if they respond to claims? Or would it take an actual court injunction to order the material to be removed?
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    The plain language of the provision is starkly unconditional. 47 USC Sec. 230(c)(1) specifies: "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
breischl 13y ago
They are suing the forum owner/operator for something posted by a forum member. So roughly equivalent to me saying something here, and Paul Graham getting sued for it. Also, the actual quote was "This scam product has been discussed here before. Stay away. It's a marketing ploy." Which I guess may be legally actionable, but given their behavior seems like it's quite likely true.
- atomical 13y ago
  They would be sued for not taking down the post. If you post something here that is libel then someone can sue to force Paul Graham to take it down. If MMM gets a lawyer he's going to end up defending the content of the post, not his right to operate his site independently.

jimbokun 13y ago

Every time I see another example of frivolous litigation threats like this, I feel like one of the biggest shortcomings of the U.S. justice system is not enough pain inflicted on frivolous litigators. This goes for patent trolling, too, obviously. There should be a healthy fear of filing baseless legal challenges. Disbarment? Large fines? What's the effective remedy here, that doesn't go so far it dissuades legitimate cases?

atomical 13y ago
Who decides if they are baseless? From the post MMM can't even decide: "From what I could tell, there wasn’t much merit to their complaint."
- unclebucknasty 13y ago
  No, the parent is right. My own attorney even describes the current system as extortionate. Even if this claim is not found to be technically frivolous (a legal term that carries a standard), the current system offers little or no penalty to those who use the courts as a bullying tactic. If you say or do something that someone doesn't like, then they just sue you and force you to spend exorbitant amounts of money and time to defend yourself, or otherwise just capitulate to their demands. Even the effort required to show that something is frivolous can be expensive, as the standard is high. The current design absolutely favors those with money. The defendant can win handily but stand very little chance of even recovering their attorney's fees.
- chilldream 13y ago
  MMM is not a lawyer. As an analogy, consider CFAA and other "hacking" related prosecutions where the layman might not be able to tell if a charge is without merit, but a domain expert acting in good faith can.
higherpurpose 13y ago
US should just adopt the European system for lawsuits. You lose, you pay. Yes, it has a downside, as does everything else in the world, but I think the downside is much smaller than the upside (compared to the current US system).

CaptJax 13y ago

As a lawyer who dabbles in IP/cyber law (not admitted in VA, so I can't help out), I really love seeing personal injury/criminal defense attorneys send cease and desist letters to publishers who are clearly protected under federal law.

dbbolton 13y ago

RICO? That may be the most definitively empty legal threat I have ever seen on the internet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corru...

daphneokeefe 13y ago

Aside from this current issue, which has no doubt raised awareness of MMM's website, one of the positive outcomes here is that HN readers may be exposed to some of the most awesomely good advice you will ever receive. Reading his posts has led me to understand that I am not alone by any means in my quest for financial independence, which is true independence. Check out his site -- you can begin with the "Start Here" link on the navbar.

mberning 13y ago
I was not aware of the site before today. I looked through a few of the articles and came to the conclusion that it is a borderline religious frugal porn site. You can take a look at the site owners 2013 budget as a prime example. Assuming that your house and car is paid off and that nobody got seriously ill and no other unexpected expenses came up the guy claims to have spent 23k for one year of supporting a family of 3+ (presumably). It is hard to reconcile the claimed budget knowing the reality of supporting onself, even if you disregard things such as rent, car, and medical.
- raintrees 13y ago
  If I remember the first few articles (I started at the beginning when I found the site, several years ago) Mr. Money Moustache and his wife were able to save radically while working fairly decent jobs. The result being they we able to "retire" very early (20's?) and are offering tips and sharing methodology. So without the background, yes the numbers can seem very low. But with the background, you may find all of the research that went into the home they have (paid for), the retirement accounts they comfortably live on while they continue to grow, and the side jobs he takes for fun (and profit), like buying and rehabbing rental properties alone and with others. Not to mention the healthy lifestyles (why drive when you can bike? Even in Colorado winters?). Similar to any perceived extreme point of view/lifestyle, it has its fans and detractors. There are many who are very thankful for the guidance... But I think it comes down to some basics that the American media (if not others) do not seem to promote very often: Earn well, save a large percentage, keep expenses low, invest well, continue to learn. Question perceived "necessities." YMMV

err4nt 13y ago

Did anybody else notice it said DCMA on the original lawyers letter? these posts infringe on our trademarks and copyrights in violation of the DCMA http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/kisstrust_first_bullshit_letter.jpg http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ki...

mahmoudimus 13y ago

Completely off-topic, but I did not know about this website. Going to check it out as it sounds very useful!

jiggbenice 13y ago
Start reading at the very beginning of the blog and carry the thread forward -- I did this last fall when I first discovered it and found that process to be immensely rewarding. And not just because of all the gut laughing that ensued.

6cxs2hd6 13y ago

Second letter: > This will serve as formal notice to preserve all ISP [sic] addresses... To paraphrase Churchill: "I may be drunk, but in the morning I will be sober, whereas you will still be an idiot."

Hawkee 13y ago

This reminds me of a case I was involved in several years ago, http://techcrunch.com/2008/07/17/channel-intelligence-sues-just-about-everyone-who-offers-wishlists/ http://techcrunch.com/2008/07/17/channel-intelligence-sues-j... - It ended up blowing up in their faces. I remember getting the phone number to the CEO of Channel Intelligence and calling him up directly. His response was, "Can you all just stop calling me! We'll fix this, just stop calling me!" I believe they were trying to collect license fees to establish their patent, but in the end they had to give it away for free to everybody involved. Those who wouldn't accept it got no further legal action. 5 years later Google bought Channel Intelligence. Go figure.