7 ms·

Calling everyone who needs peace and quiet to concentrate a petulant teenager doesn't win an argument. Walk into any open plan office with developers in it, th

Calling everyone who needs peace and quiet to concentrate a petulant teenager doesn't win an argument. Walk into any open plan office with developers in it, they will all have headphones in. You think they want to listen to music all day? 10s of thousands of dollars in lost productivity disappearing down the drain right in front of your nose but you're too blind to see.

kristiandupont 13y ago
I'm in an open office at this moment. Nobody is wearing headphones. Everybody is working, there is a tiny bit of chatter now and then but nothing distracting. The feeling of other people working seems to affect my own productivity positively (no, the irony of me being on HN is not lost on me. I'm taking a five minute break). But then, I also like to work in cafés. In fact, when I work from home I will sometimes open www.rainycafe.com to "simulate" that feeling. As long as nobody is speaking really loud or addressing me directly, it doesn't disturb me.
- mattmanser 13y ago
  It will only take one sales person to shatter that. If everyone is being quiet creative it's fine. Introduce a person constantly on the phone and it's not. The other ones, and god I hate them, are the pacing round the office while on a mobile. Only topped by pacing round the office on a mobile who's route goes behind your chair. The most distracting thing in the world to me.
  - jader201 13y ago
    Sorry, but I can top that. And this has happened to me. Multiple times (by the same offender). A manager that uses her speakerphone to call someone else. Two cubes over. Needless to say, I don't work there anymore.
    - xsmasher 13y ago
      I think cubes are actually worse than open plan; in a cube you can't see that someone is working intently three feet away, and you don't see their death glare.
  - zimpenfish 13y ago
    I once worked in a small dev room, no door, on a mezannine above a recruitment agency. 16 people whose job it was to be on the phone all day. And they had the radio on. My three month review ended when I walked out after being criticised for wearing headphones all day.
  - slowmover 13y ago
    This is exactly the issue I have in my current open floor plan. Developers are intermixed with project managers and business analysts and anyone else who happens to occupy the empty desk at the end of the row. However, the worst distraction I have is actually another developer whose voice carries like buckshot out at 12 gauge. He's been asked to keep it down but it seems like he is physically incapable of understanding how loud he talks.
  - agumonkey 13y ago
    Or just team issues. I recall one friend telling me how open spaces became strategic games. - You don't wanna be next to this employee (too lazy, friction) - Being too close to a [bad] manager - Being moved was a very cheap lever toward fear of inflicted unspoken sanctions
  - gyepi 13y ago
    I once spent a summer writing software in a room full of telephone order takers. My requests for a quieter office were rebuffed and only granted when I offered to quit. I took the office, finished the software, and quit.
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  How many people are on that floor?
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Ditto here. I enjoy open environments, I derive energy from other people working around me. There are ~30 people on the floor around me right now. There's a quiet conversation happening somewhere, which I didn't notice until I checked just now. Otherwise it's quiet and everyone is working. I can see two pairs of headphones in the bunch. The frustrating thing about this particular issue is the vehemence of the "pro private office" side - people like mattmanser or mgkimsal routinely talk past people like myself, and pretend we don't exist. When we express our satisfaction with open arrangements we're talked down to, accused of shilling, and otherwise treated like idiots who are too stupid to have valid opinions on something that is a core part of our daily lives. Every single argument boils down to "there's simply no way you've had a positive experience, your experience was actually negative but you're too dumb to know it". There is no concept that some people might actually legitimately like the arrangement. What works for us might not work for you. This isn't a value judgment upon you or anyone. People are different, shocking, I know. No one here is trying to shove an open-plan office down your throat.
  - netcan 13y ago
    I agree. This is a largely a subjective question. What you like, what makes you productive and what you feel makes you productive all play a part and are all pretty subjective. I think people feel like because it's work related it is and must be objective. Measurable and provably better for all involved. It gets very transparent when you hear the reasoning behind very senior people's large expensive offices. There's always some pseudo rational justification. I'm not saying that environment doesn't affect productivity. I'm saying I don't think that's what is enflaming passions. I see office environments as a form of consumption. Our standards for homes and cars and phones have gone up. Why not office chairs and square footage? Thinking of it that way naturally lends to subjectivity. What you like is supposed to be subjective.
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    I'm not talking past you, your crowd generally talk past me with "it's fine - works for me - just wear headphones - actually it's a benefit", etc. In my own experience - I've known a few people who were genuinely better at their development work in open environments. Better as in measured output vs what they thought of themselves. They felt better - they liked the atmosphere - but they also thought they did good work, when they weren't doing terribly good work. Was it causal? Probably not, but it more proves the point that it's harder to self-assess beyond emotional state (which, really, IS a component of work life - I get that). But what also happens with these religious wars is that the few anecdotes of "hey - I ENJOY working in open plan areas" is used to justify it for everyone. You want open with other people - that should be allowed. You want an office with a door to shut to work? That should be allowed too. You want to switch between the two - that should be allowed and it EXTREMELY RARE. Essentially, without loud 'anti' open office plan voices, the 'hey, this is cheaper' crowd gets its way. And when they can find a small percentage of people who do work well in that environment, it's justification-icing on the decision cake. You're paying a team of people... say, $500k per year - spend the extra few percent and get an office that can accommodate multiple working styles to have the best possible places for all types of people to work. The larger world tends to default to the benefit of extroverts, and 'open plan offices' is one more 'default' that needs to be challenged, especially for many knowledge workers. In every place I've been with open plans or open cube farms - management NEVER sat there - always had private offices. There's an acknowledgement that it's useful for some type of work, and you're not it. Incredibly divisive attitude for a 'team' to have to put up with. And... for every one example of "but... famous person X sits in an open plan with the team" there are hundreds who don't - it's not the norm. "No one here is trying to shove an open-plan office down your throat." MOST companies are because it saves a few bucks. The costs may be non trivial, but the cost compared the salaries, benefits and lost productivity generally are trivial.
- miecio13 13y ago
  > I'm in an open office at this moment. Nobody is wearing headphones. Everybody is working ... Clearly not everybody is working - someone posting comments to HN...
koopajah 13y ago
I'm in a coworking space right now and I'm one of the only one I can see with headphones on all day. And I wear them by choice, I really love to work with music, not because I want to avoid the noise around me
netcan 13y ago
woah, cool down! I didn't call anyone a petulant teenager, not even teenagers. Your own space that you control is nicer and I'm arguing that people want it mostly because it's nicer. Productivity often overlaps with privacy and it may in this case, but I don't think people are as passionate about productivity boosting choices when they don't overlap with pleasantness. BTW, There is nothing wrong with wanting a nicer work environment.
- mattmanser 13y ago
  I like getting loads of work done. I like getting into the zone. You feel good afterwards. I so rarely get into the zone at work I can often count the times in the last month on a hand. And usually it'll be after most people left. You're putting words into people's mouth that aren't true (and you did compare us to 14 year olds!). Yes privacy is good, but mostly we'd just like to be able to get on with work without constant interruptions. If you'd have claimed all CEOs are inherently paranoid and don't trust their workers to work in private offices you'd have been as wrong.
  - _kfb 13y ago
    > (and you did compare us to 14 year olds!) For what it's worth, I read their comment as meaning that some things we desire are the same throughout our lifetimes. In the same way that teenagers want to decorate their rooms to reflect themselves, as adults we have the same drives (though maybe with fewer posters of slightly-shameful bands).
  - netcan 13y ago
    I don't see how you read petulant teenager from what I wrote. >> We want our own space. We want to control our environment. Same thing every 14 year old wants. We spend half our lives at work and we want a pleasant office for the same reason we want a pleasant home. More space is more pleasant.
- disputin 13y ago
  I think you're confusing achieving optimal productivity with achieving decent productivity. Sometimes even the latter is a depressing struggle.
slowmover 13y ago
PSA - As an alternative to headphones I came up with "stealth" earplugs. Take regular memory-foam earplugs, cut them down so the outer edge is flush with your ear hole, and color the outside edge black with a sharpie. The cut out the background noise but let enough sound through that you can have a normal conversation with someone next to you. Sometimes I wear them all day.
tptacek 13y ago
We're open plan. Fewer than half of us are wearing headphones at any given time. I wear them when I want to listen to music, never any other time.

kristiandupont 13y ago

I'm in an open office at this moment. Nobody is wearing headphones. Everybody is working, there is a tiny bit of chatter now and then but nothing distracting. The feeling of other people working seems to affect my own productivity positively (no, the irony of me being on HN is not lost on me. I'm taking a five minute break). But then, I also like to work in cafés. In fact, when I work from home I will sometimes open www.rainycafe.com to "simulate" that feeling. As long as nobody is speaking really loud or addressing me directly, it doesn't disturb me.

mattmanser 13y ago
It will only take one sales person to shatter that. If everyone is being quiet creative it's fine. Introduce a person constantly on the phone and it's not. The other ones, and god I hate them, are the pacing round the office while on a mobile. Only topped by pacing round the office on a mobile who's route goes behind your chair. The most distracting thing in the world to me.
- jader201 13y ago
  Sorry, but I can top that. And this has happened to me. Multiple times (by the same offender). A manager that uses her speakerphone to call someone else. Two cubes over. Needless to say, I don't work there anymore.
  - xsmasher 13y ago
    I think cubes are actually worse than open plan; in a cube you can't see that someone is working intently three feet away, and you don't see their death glare.
- zimpenfish 13y ago
  I once worked in a small dev room, no door, on a mezannine above a recruitment agency. 16 people whose job it was to be on the phone all day. And they had the radio on. My three month review ended when I walked out after being criticised for wearing headphones all day.
- slowmover 13y ago
  This is exactly the issue I have in my current open floor plan. Developers are intermixed with project managers and business analysts and anyone else who happens to occupy the empty desk at the end of the row. However, the worst distraction I have is actually another developer whose voice carries like buckshot out at 12 gauge. He's been asked to keep it down but it seems like he is physically incapable of understanding how loud he talks.
- agumonkey 13y ago
  Or just team issues. I recall one friend telling me how open spaces became strategic games. - You don't wanna be next to this employee (too lazy, friction) - Being too close to a [bad] manager - Being moved was a very cheap lever toward fear of inflicted unspoken sanctions
- gyepi 13y ago
  I once spent a summer writing software in a room full of telephone order takers. My requests for a quieter office were rebuffed and only granted when I offered to quit. I took the office, finished the software, and quit.
marcosdumay 13y ago
How many people are on that floor?
potatolicious 13y ago
Ditto here. I enjoy open environments, I derive energy from other people working around me. There are ~30 people on the floor around me right now. There's a quiet conversation happening somewhere, which I didn't notice until I checked just now. Otherwise it's quiet and everyone is working. I can see two pairs of headphones in the bunch. The frustrating thing about this particular issue is the vehemence of the "pro private office" side - people like mattmanser or mgkimsal routinely talk past people like myself, and pretend we don't exist. When we express our satisfaction with open arrangements we're talked down to, accused of shilling, and otherwise treated like idiots who are too stupid to have valid opinions on something that is a core part of our daily lives. Every single argument boils down to "there's simply no way you've had a positive experience, your experience was actually negative but you're too dumb to know it". There is no concept that some people might actually legitimately like the arrangement. What works for us might not work for you. This isn't a value judgment upon you or anyone. People are different, shocking, I know. No one here is trying to shove an open-plan office down your throat.
- netcan 13y ago
  I agree. This is a largely a subjective question. What you like, what makes you productive and what you feel makes you productive all play a part and are all pretty subjective. I think people feel like because it's work related it is and must be objective. Measurable and provably better for all involved. It gets very transparent when you hear the reasoning behind very senior people's large expensive offices. There's always some pseudo rational justification. I'm not saying that environment doesn't affect productivity. I'm saying I don't think that's what is enflaming passions. I see office environments as a form of consumption. Our standards for homes and cars and phones have gone up. Why not office chairs and square footage? Thinking of it that way naturally lends to subjectivity. What you like is supposed to be subjective.
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  I'm not talking past you, your crowd generally talk past me with "it's fine - works for me - just wear headphones - actually it's a benefit", etc. In my own experience - I've known a few people who were genuinely better at their development work in open environments. Better as in measured output vs what they thought of themselves. They felt better - they liked the atmosphere - but they also thought they did good work, when they weren't doing terribly good work. Was it causal? Probably not, but it more proves the point that it's harder to self-assess beyond emotional state (which, really, IS a component of work life - I get that). But what also happens with these religious wars is that the few anecdotes of "hey - I ENJOY working in open plan areas" is used to justify it for everyone. You want open with other people - that should be allowed. You want an office with a door to shut to work? That should be allowed too. You want to switch between the two - that should be allowed and it EXTREMELY RARE. Essentially, without loud 'anti' open office plan voices, the 'hey, this is cheaper' crowd gets its way. And when they can find a small percentage of people who do work well in that environment, it's justification-icing on the decision cake. You're paying a team of people... say, $500k per year - spend the extra few percent and get an office that can accommodate multiple working styles to have the best possible places for all types of people to work. The larger world tends to default to the benefit of extroverts, and 'open plan offices' is one more 'default' that needs to be challenged, especially for many knowledge workers. In every place I've been with open plans or open cube farms - management NEVER sat there - always had private offices. There's an acknowledgement that it's useful for some type of work, and you're not it. Incredibly divisive attitude for a 'team' to have to put up with. And... for every one example of "but... famous person X sits in an open plan with the team" there are hundreds who don't - it's not the norm. "No one here is trying to shove an open-plan office down your throat." MOST companies are because it saves a few bucks. The costs may be non trivial, but the cost compared the salaries, benefits and lost productivity generally are trivial.
miecio13 13y ago
> I'm in an open office at this moment. Nobody is wearing headphones. Everybody is working ... Clearly not everybody is working - someone posting comments to HN...

koopajah 13y ago

I'm in a coworking space right now and I'm one of the only one I can see with headphones on all day. And I wear them by choice, I really love to work with music, not because I want to avoid the noise around me

netcan 13y ago

woah, cool down! I didn't call anyone a petulant teenager, not even teenagers. Your own space that you control is nicer and I'm arguing that people want it mostly because it's nicer. Productivity often overlaps with privacy and it may in this case, but I don't think people are as passionate about productivity boosting choices when they don't overlap with pleasantness. BTW, There is nothing wrong with wanting a nicer work environment.

mattmanser 13y ago
I like getting loads of work done. I like getting into the zone. You feel good afterwards. I so rarely get into the zone at work I can often count the times in the last month on a hand. And usually it'll be after most people left. You're putting words into people's mouth that aren't true (and you did compare us to 14 year olds!). Yes privacy is good, but mostly we'd just like to be able to get on with work without constant interruptions. If you'd have claimed all CEOs are inherently paranoid and don't trust their workers to work in private offices you'd have been as wrong.
- _kfb 13y ago
  > (and you did compare us to 14 year olds!) For what it's worth, I read their comment as meaning that some things we desire are the same throughout our lifetimes. In the same way that teenagers want to decorate their rooms to reflect themselves, as adults we have the same drives (though maybe with fewer posters of slightly-shameful bands).
- netcan 13y ago
  I don't see how you read petulant teenager from what I wrote. >> We want our own space. We want to control our environment. Same thing every 14 year old wants. We spend half our lives at work and we want a pleasant office for the same reason we want a pleasant home. More space is more pleasant.
disputin 13y ago
I think you're confusing achieving optimal productivity with achieving decent productivity. Sometimes even the latter is a depressing struggle.

slowmover 13y ago

PSA - As an alternative to headphones I came up with "stealth" earplugs. Take regular memory-foam earplugs, cut them down so the outer edge is flush with your ear hole, and color the outside edge black with a sharpie. The cut out the background noise but let enough sound through that you can have a normal conversation with someone next to you. Sometimes I wear them all day.

tptacek 13y ago

We're open plan. Fewer than half of us are wearing headphones at any given time. I wear them when I want to listen to music, never any other time.