6 ms·

China Begins Longest Bullet Train Service

43 points by lelf 13y ago

stuaxo 13y ago
Here it is on the BBC if anyone gets stuck behind the paywall http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20842836 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20842836
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  And both of those are blocked for those of us behind the great firewall.
  - dcc1 13y ago
    well that ain't the fault of the bbc now is it?
  - marukokinno 13y ago
    BBC is not blocked, at least here in Beijing or other big cities. Are you in the countryside of Northern China? I advice to try www.myssh.cc , very fast and very cheap (2 USD a month), it unblocks everything, but then you have to turn it off when you want to watch all the free streaming movies, TV series, and music easy available inside the great wall.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      It is blocked on my home ISP (telecom?) and CMCC and Unicom in Beijing; I just checked and got the dreaded invalid argument message. Blocking isn't exactly consistent between ISPs, but when three of the big ones block something, I'm assuming this is at least a citywide block, what ISP are you using? It could just be a misconfigured selective block, it is a weird error for a true block. Every way of jumping the wall winds up not working 2 months after you've bought a year of service. I've giving up on trying.
melling 13y ago
That's the equivalent of crossing half the United States. China must have around 7000 miles of track by now. The US still has none. It's really hard to convince Americans that it's worth the money. We probably won't realize our mistake until later in the 21st century when China converts it's 20,000 miles of track to maglevs running at 300 mph.
- rayiner 13y ago
  Its not that its hard to convince Americans its worth the money. Its that its politically difficult to concentrate the money only in places it would yield the most bang for the buck. The best strategy would be to take all the HSR money and funnel it to upgrading the Northeast Corridor as quickly as possible. Its easier because Amtrak owns the track and rights of way, and will yield the most bang for buck because its Amtrak's sole profitable line. A success there could create a lot of political pressure for further investment. But its politically impossible to support a project that doesn't piss away its money over a dozen states.
  - svenkatesh 13y ago
    So what you're suggesting is that the taxpayer subsidize Amtrak's infrastructure, even though Amtrak runs a profitable business already and practically has a monopoly in northeast commuter rail.
    - protomyth 13y ago
      Technically, once you count capital expenditures, Amtrak is not profitable in that corridor. Also, finding a taxpayer in the middle of the country that wants to spend tax dollars making it easier for people to get to work in Washington DC would be a bit hard.
- PakG1 13y ago
  Thing about China's railway needs is that it has population density. That makes it a lot easier to charge a cheaper price for tickets that look affordable and worthwhile to passengers, and still turn a healthy profit for the operator.
throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
"covering a distance in eight hours that is about equal to that from New York to Key West, Fla.," So I looked it up: the flight takes 3:17 or 2:49 depending on the direction. (Delta 1343, nonstop, B737. Only flies Saturdays).
- kinofcain 13y ago
  Right, but the train is making multiple stops. People like to talk about the total length of the line, and some people will certainly ride from terminus to terminus, but the vast majority of riders will be traveling much shorter distances that are much more competitive with flying. Around the world the mode share split between flying and high speed rail has been around 50% when the rail trip is four hours, and there are plenty of segments on this line that are shorter than four hours.
- oddx 13y ago
  Another difference: air travel usually require 3-4 hours more for travel to and from airport, check in, baggage claim. Railroad travel requirements usually a lot simpler and railroad stations usually located near center of city.
  - marukokinno 13y ago
    Also the planes always have at least 30 minutes delay before take-off (here in China),and yes, airports are usually far from the Downtown. Anyway, Trains are much more comfortable, less stressing, you can take more luggage, you can sit at the restaurant, have internet with a 3G stick, play cards and make friends, many trains have a smoking area (in China). I prefer trains over planes every time.
    - netllama 13y ago
      Not sure that I'd consider 'many trains have a smoking area' as a good thing. Last year, I spent two weeks travelling around China via trains, and without a doubt the most annoying part of the experience was the rampant second hand smoke wafting throughout the entire train. While there are designated 'smoking areas' on the trains, they don't work so well when the train staff keep all the doors wide open all the time. And I tried closing them a few times, and less than a few minutes later some 'helpful' train car attendant had re-opened the door. I'm pretty sure I increased my likelihood of contracting lung cancer by a few percentage points from the two weeks that I spent on Chinese trains (not to mention the polluted air throughout the country).
tokenadult 13y ago
The likely roll-out of self-driving cars in the United States over the same time frame[1] is one reason not to expect high-speed train lines in the United States. The United States already has the infrastructure in place (the Interstate Highway system) to make self-driving cars a quite feasible means of long-distance, point-to-point transportation. The United States cities and towns in the central part of the United States are largely where they are because they are along historic railroad lines, but the railroad lines in my region of the country are increasingly being turned into rails-to-trails dedicated biking and walking paths, which I can take on very long trips from my immediate neighborhood, and except for the parts of the United States where there are already a lot of train users (notably the Northeast Corridor), there is not likely to be much increase in consumer demand for train rides, no matter how great the government subsidies supporting them. China has rushed ahead in high-speed rail development, at the cost of human life[2] and corruption,[3] but the United States has no need to follow this example. We will mostly be taking long-distance trips here by plane (as we already do) or by car (as we also already do, except with self-driving becoming more and more commonplace). There isn't any particular need in the United States to build new high-speed train lines. [1] http://www.wired.com/magazine/2012/01/ff_autonomouscars/ http://www.wired.com/magazine/2012/01/ff_autonomouscars/ http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323808204579085271065923340 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142412788732380820... http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/01/safety-self-driving-car/ http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/01/safety-self-driving-car... http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304428004579354520148991170 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230442800... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/world/asia/design-flaws-cited-in-china-train-crash.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/world/asia/design-flaws-ci... http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/22/121022fa_fact_osnos?currentPage=all http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/22/121022fa_fact_... [3] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/08/liu-zhijun-sentenced-death-corruption http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/08/liu-zhijun-sent...
- apsec112 13y ago
  Railroads and streetcars were hugely profitable in the US, until the government subsidized cars by: - giving everyone high-quality roads - setting road tolls to zero or almost nothing - making dense housing illegal to build with zoning laws - requiring businesses to provide free parking - requiring home builders to provide free parking - all the crap US does internationally to secure oil supply lines - not taxing pollution, noise, or other car externalities - enacting crazy regulations on railroads; for example, American railroads can't buy European trains, they must build their own custom-designed trains at enormous expense and on and on and on it goes, all at taxpayer (or business owner) expense. An American on a road trip thinks cars are cheap because everyone else is forced to absorb the cost.
swatkat 13y ago
1,200 miles Bullet train is just awesome! For railfans out there, I'd like to mention about Indian Railways' Himsagar Express[1]. It's one of the longest running trains in India, covering 2,306 miles from southern tip to northern tip. Average speed is only 33mph :) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himsagar_Express http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himsagar_Express
- netllama 13y ago
  If that's the 'express', I'd hate to think of what the non-express train's travel speed & time is.
randomor 13y ago
The ticket price of traveling in-between these two cities(Beijing and Guangzhou) by high-speed train is higher than the flight, which makes sense, considering the airplane is significantly cheaper after taking-off. The same logic with hyperloop vs. planes, one is designed for between-cities commutes, one for cross-country/continent travel. Personal story, now my mom can have her breakfast at my hometown, take the high-speed train for 2hrs to the closest international port Guangzhou and make it to the 1pm flight. It used to be 7 hours.
adaml_623 13y ago
Am I the only person who really expected the major news services covering this story to include a map?

43 points by lelf 13y ago

Here it is on the BBC if anyone gets stuck behind the paywall http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20842836 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20842836

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
And both of those are blocked for those of us behind the great firewall.
- dcc1 13y ago
  well that ain't the fault of the bbc now is it?
- marukokinno 13y ago
  BBC is not blocked, at least here in Beijing or other big cities. Are you in the countryside of Northern China? I advice to try www.myssh.cc , very fast and very cheap (2 USD a month), it unblocks everything, but then you have to turn it off when you want to watch all the free streaming movies, TV series, and music easy available inside the great wall.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    It is blocked on my home ISP (telecom?) and CMCC and Unicom in Beijing; I just checked and got the dreaded invalid argument message. Blocking isn't exactly consistent between ISPs, but when three of the big ones block something, I'm assuming this is at least a citywide block, what ISP are you using? It could just be a misconfigured selective block, it is a weird error for a true block. Every way of jumping the wall winds up not working 2 months after you've bought a year of service. I've giving up on trying.

melling 13y ago

That's the equivalent of crossing half the United States. China must have around 7000 miles of track by now. The US still has none. It's really hard to convince Americans that it's worth the money. We probably won't realize our mistake until later in the 21st century when China converts it's 20,000 miles of track to maglevs running at 300 mph.

rayiner 13y ago
Its not that its hard to convince Americans its worth the money. Its that its politically difficult to concentrate the money only in places it would yield the most bang for the buck. The best strategy would be to take all the HSR money and funnel it to upgrading the Northeast Corridor as quickly as possible. Its easier because Amtrak owns the track and rights of way, and will yield the most bang for buck because its Amtrak's sole profitable line. A success there could create a lot of political pressure for further investment. But its politically impossible to support a project that doesn't piss away its money over a dozen states.
- svenkatesh 13y ago
  So what you're suggesting is that the taxpayer subsidize Amtrak's infrastructure, even though Amtrak runs a profitable business already and practically has a monopoly in northeast commuter rail.
  - protomyth 13y ago
    Technically, once you count capital expenditures, Amtrak is not profitable in that corridor. Also, finding a taxpayer in the middle of the country that wants to spend tax dollars making it easier for people to get to work in Washington DC would be a bit hard.
PakG1 13y ago
Thing about China's railway needs is that it has population density. That makes it a lot easier to charge a cheaper price for tickets that look affordable and worthwhile to passengers, and still turn a healthy profit for the operator.

throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago

"covering a distance in eight hours that is about equal to that from New York to Key West, Fla.," So I looked it up: the flight takes 3:17 or 2:49 depending on the direction. (Delta 1343, nonstop, B737. Only flies Saturdays).

kinofcain 13y ago
Right, but the train is making multiple stops. People like to talk about the total length of the line, and some people will certainly ride from terminus to terminus, but the vast majority of riders will be traveling much shorter distances that are much more competitive with flying. Around the world the mode share split between flying and high speed rail has been around 50% when the rail trip is four hours, and there are plenty of segments on this line that are shorter than four hours.
oddx 13y ago
Another difference: air travel usually require 3-4 hours more for travel to and from airport, check in, baggage claim. Railroad travel requirements usually a lot simpler and railroad stations usually located near center of city.
- marukokinno 13y ago
  Also the planes always have at least 30 minutes delay before take-off (here in China),and yes, airports are usually far from the Downtown. Anyway, Trains are much more comfortable, less stressing, you can take more luggage, you can sit at the restaurant, have internet with a 3G stick, play cards and make friends, many trains have a smoking area (in China). I prefer trains over planes every time.
  - netllama 13y ago
    Not sure that I'd consider 'many trains have a smoking area' as a good thing. Last year, I spent two weeks travelling around China via trains, and without a doubt the most annoying part of the experience was the rampant second hand smoke wafting throughout the entire train. While there are designated 'smoking areas' on the trains, they don't work so well when the train staff keep all the doors wide open all the time. And I tried closing them a few times, and less than a few minutes later some 'helpful' train car attendant had re-opened the door. I'm pretty sure I increased my likelihood of contracting lung cancer by a few percentage points from the two weeks that I spent on Chinese trains (not to mention the polluted air throughout the country).

tokenadult 13y ago

The likely roll-out of self-driving cars in the United States over the same time frame[1] is one reason not to expect high-speed train lines in the United States. The United States already has the infrastructure in place (the Interstate Highway system) to make self-driving cars a quite feasible means of long-distance, point-to-point transportation. The United States cities and towns in the central part of the United States are largely where they are because they are along historic railroad lines, but the railroad lines in my region of the country are increasingly being turned into rails-to-trails dedicated biking and walking paths, which I can take on very long trips from my immediate neighborhood, and except for the parts of the United States where there are already a lot of train users (notably the Northeast Corridor), there is not likely to be much increase in consumer demand for train rides, no matter how great the government subsidies supporting them. China has rushed ahead in high-speed rail development, at the cost of human life[2] and corruption,[3] but the United States has no need to follow this example. We will mostly be taking long-distance trips here by plane (as we already do) or by car (as we also already do, except with self-driving becoming more and more commonplace). There isn't any particular need in the United States to build new high-speed train lines. [1] http://www.wired.com/magazine/2012/01/ff_autonomouscars/ http://www.wired.com/magazine/2012/01/ff_autonomouscars/ http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323808204579085271065923340 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142412788732380820... http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/01/safety-self-driving-car/ http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/01/safety-self-driving-car... http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304428004579354520148991170 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230442800... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/world/asia/design-flaws-cited-in-china-train-crash.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/world/asia/design-flaws-ci... http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/22/121022fa_fact_osnos?currentPage=all http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/22/121022fa_fact_... [3] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/08/liu-zhijun-sentenced-death-corruption http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/08/liu-zhijun-sent...

apsec112 13y ago
Railroads and streetcars were hugely profitable in the US, until the government subsidized cars by: - giving everyone high-quality roads - setting road tolls to zero or almost nothing - making dense housing illegal to build with zoning laws - requiring businesses to provide free parking - requiring home builders to provide free parking - all the crap US does internationally to secure oil supply lines - not taxing pollution, noise, or other car externalities - enacting crazy regulations on railroads; for example, American railroads can't buy European trains, they must build their own custom-designed trains at enormous expense and on and on and on it goes, all at taxpayer (or business owner) expense. An American on a road trip thinks cars are cheap because everyone else is forced to absorb the cost.

swatkat 13y ago

1,200 miles Bullet train is just awesome! For railfans out there, I'd like to mention about Indian Railways' Himsagar Express[1]. It's one of the longest running trains in India, covering 2,306 miles from southern tip to northern tip. Average speed is only 33mph :) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himsagar_Express http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himsagar_Express

netllama 13y ago
If that's the 'express', I'd hate to think of what the non-express train's travel speed & time is.

randomor 13y ago

The ticket price of traveling in-between these two cities(Beijing and Guangzhou) by high-speed train is higher than the flight, which makes sense, considering the airplane is significantly cheaper after taking-off. The same logic with hyperloop vs. planes, one is designed for between-cities commutes, one for cross-country/continent travel. Personal story, now my mom can have her breakfast at my hometown, take the high-speed train for 2hrs to the closest international port Guangzhou and make it to the 1pm flight. It used to be 7 hours.

adaml_623 13y ago

Am I the only person who really expected the major news services covering this story to include a map?