6 ms·

I'm a fan of the Midwest in general and love the seasons (even in MN) but I don't know that the jobs are there. My friend in Madison (a very intelligent "ABD" w

I'm a fan of the Midwest in general and love the seasons (even in MN) but I don't know that the jobs are there. My friend in Madison (a very intelligent "ABD" who, as often happens in math PhD programs, burned out) got $45,000 in his first programming job because his company had no competition. Even now, I doubt he's higher than $90,000. As for leaving SF/Boston/NYC, I moved to Baltimore, which is not the Midwest and actually not that cheap. The two-body problem is a big part of why the "star cities" are so attractive. I like Baltimore-- it's way better than its reputation, although that ain't saying much-- but when I next search for a job, I'll probably find more outside of Baltimore than inside. Also, there's that two-body issue. This move has been good for my career but so-so for my wife's, because there aren't many good companies here. We shouldn't have to choose between one career or the other and, in the long run, we won't. The costs of housing in San Francisco and New York are fucking criminal (literally, if you look into the NIMBY issues) but knowing that both you and your spouse will be able to find high-quality jobs for 10+ years is the draw. I'd rather live in Minneapolis than San Francisco, but I'm pretty sure we could live in San Francisco, career-wise, for at least a decade. Are there going to be VP-level-but-mostly-coding machine learning positions in Minneapolis in 2024? Not a clear call. And cross-country moves are stressful and just get harder with age. Of course, San Francisco and New York spit you out if you don't become, at least in pay grade, Director-level by child-raising age. To be honest, I don't think we'll move to either of those cities when we next relocate, because even though we'll be able to afford it the expensiveness is horrible for the culture. We ranked cities independently and Seattle topped both of our lists; it's affordable (if not exactly cheap) and beautiful and neither of us has a problem with 50-degree cloudy days. (In MN that was called "Early May".)

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
I thought the correct acronym was ABCD? Besides the weather, two body problems are one reason why the mid-west is unappealing, but also your earnings generally scale with living expenses, meaning you have more disposable income to spend on things whose price is fixed across the country. Seattle is my first choice for when I finally move back to the states, but I grew up in the area. You have to be OK with 3 or 4 months of rain, however.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  Abd is "all but doctorate". ABCD is an american with indian parents.
  - michaelq 13y ago
    ABD stands for "All but Dissertation".
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Ah! Never heard of the former before. PhD students usually wash out after quals, I don't know of anyone who stops just before defending!
    - jaredsohn 13y ago
      I hear the term a lot when PhD students are hunting for faculty jobs (i.e. trying to get a job lined up before defending their dissertation with the hope that they do so before their start date.)
- theorique 13y ago
  "ABD" tends to be "all but dissertation" - a PhD student who has completed course work, qualification exams, research proposal, and possibly other requirements, but has not yet written or defended his doctoral dissertation.
- lotharbot 13y ago
  > "your earnings generally scale with living expenses" My understanding is that earnings scale by city, but not as steeply as living expenses, for most people in the software world. You might make 10-20% less in a largeish city in the midwest than you would in Seattle or the Bay Area, but your house costs 60-80% less and most other things cost 10-20% less. Thought of a different way: for 10-20% less than a low-end 600 square foot condo in Mountain View, you can buy a 4000 square foot house on half an acre in Denver. Sure, there's a lot more to consider -- weather, proximity to family, the specific job offers and costs you're likely to incur. But your money goes a lot farther than you might realize in flyover country.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

I thought the correct acronym was ABCD? Besides the weather, two body problems are one reason why the mid-west is unappealing, but also your earnings generally scale with living expenses, meaning you have more disposable income to spend on things whose price is fixed across the country. Seattle is my first choice for when I finally move back to the states, but I grew up in the area. You have to be OK with 3 or 4 months of rain, however.

yummyfajitas 13y ago
Abd is "all but doctorate". ABCD is an american with indian parents.
- michaelq 13y ago
  ABD stands for "All but Dissertation".
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Ah! Never heard of the former before. PhD students usually wash out after quals, I don't know of anyone who stops just before defending!
  - jaredsohn 13y ago
    I hear the term a lot when PhD students are hunting for faculty jobs (i.e. trying to get a job lined up before defending their dissertation with the hope that they do so before their start date.)
theorique 13y ago
"ABD" tends to be "all but dissertation" - a PhD student who has completed course work, qualification exams, research proposal, and possibly other requirements, but has not yet written or defended his doctoral dissertation.
lotharbot 13y ago
> "your earnings generally scale with living expenses" My understanding is that earnings scale by city, but not as steeply as living expenses, for most people in the software world. You might make 10-20% less in a largeish city in the midwest than you would in Seattle or the Bay Area, but your house costs 60-80% less and most other things cost 10-20% less. Thought of a different way: for 10-20% less than a low-end 600 square foot condo in Mountain View, you can buy a 4000 square foot house on half an acre in Denver. Sure, there's a lot more to consider -- weather, proximity to family, the specific job offers and costs you're likely to incur. But your money goes a lot farther than you might realize in flyover country.