8 ms·

Mozilla is investigating why Dell is charging to install Firefox

112 points by tweakz 13y ago

nonchalance 13y ago
> Dell has responded saying that this practice is okay because the company is charging for the service and not the product.
- dkuntz2 13y ago
  > If you are using the Mozilla Mark(s) for the unaltered binaries you are distributing, you may not charge for that product. By not charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be subject to a fee, or tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service, or the collection of personal information. Specifically the "By not charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be subject to a fee" part.
  - natdempk 13y ago
    Doesn't the purchasing a service part explicitly say Dell isn't allowed to do this? Am I reading this wrong somehow or are they just blatantly breaking the rules?
    - FireBeyond 13y ago
      You are reading it wrong. The -distribution- of the software isn’t tied to the purchase of a service. Dell isn’t charging to put Firefox-setup.exe in your Downloads folder. They’re charging to install it. Granted, I think charging $18 to install a browser is entirely dickish behavior, but the legal nuances of ‘distribution’ versus ‘installation’ are neither subtle nor vague.
      - craigching 13y ago
        I don't want to take away from your argument, I agree with you 100%, but according to the article it's £16.26 or $27.18, so it's even worse than your $18. It's a ripoff and maybe they could be subject to fraud charges instead :p
    - userbinator 13y ago
      I know people who get paid by their friends for help setting up computers - often reformatting/reinstalling after malware infections - and I'd guess many of them would be installing Firefox for them too. Does it mean they can't do that according to Mozilla if they charge for the services? Dell gets picked on here, but I bet they're not the only ones who charge to install free software like Firefox.
      - russellsprouts 13y ago
        It's totally fine for anyone to charge to install Firefox -- the software is open source. They cannot advertise their services as a Mozilla Firefox Install Service -- Mozilla's trademark is not free. At the very least, you would have to be very clear that you are not affiliated with Mozilla in any way. It's pretty clear (to me - IANAL) that Dell is using Mozilla's trademark without their permission. If they called it Open Source Pre-Install Service, and explained that it includes Mozilla Firefox and some other software, I think it would be fine. https://tldrlegal.com/license/mozilla-public-license-2.0-%28mpl-2%29 https://tldrlegal.com/license/mozilla-public-license-2.0-%28...
  - beejiu 13y ago
    On the other hand, the only mention of trademarks in the license is: > This License does not grant any rights in the trademarks, service marks, or logos of any Contributor This is unfortunately worded in Dell's favour, as any trademark policy from Mozilla will stand independently from the license. Furthermore, Dell is allowed to use Mozilla's trademark in a fair way, regardless of what their own policies say.
  - nonchalance 13y ago
    The problem is that Mozilla's policy applies to distribution but not necessarily to installation. Since this is a legal issue, the details are very important. In this case, the process of ensuring that a functioning version of Firefox resides on the machine involves: 1. Transferring the Firefox software to the machine 2. Explicitly preparing the machine so that the Firefox software can be run (in this case, installing Firefox) The Policy only applies to the first item. No part of the policy refers to the second action, and it's fair game for Dell to charge a fee for the labor associated with installing the software (they cannot, of course, charge a fee for the part of the process where the software is distributed to the machine). If this sounds like nitpicking, welcome to the world of law
    - dkuntz2 13y ago
      There's also a prohibition against fees "tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service". This seems pretty much like a service being purchased... I accept that the law can be entirely arbitrary and based on tiny technicalities, but it seems like Dell's in the wrong here to me.
    - thedufer 13y ago
      I would be willing to bet that they aren't running an installer on each person's machine, though. If they created multiple disk images - one with FF, one without - and are charging to use the one with FF, then it looks like they're charging for distribution.
      - nonchalance 13y ago
        If they really did create two sets of disk images based on presence of Firefox, Dell could argue that the price is not for the software but for other differences between the disk images. Note that I'm not arguing about the spirit of the actions, but merely about whether Mozilla actually has a case here
        tcheard 13y ago
        Not if they are selling the service as a "Mozilla Firefox Web Browser Installation Service"
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    No. The original article claimed that too, but there’s absolutely no way that interpretation would hold up in court. Lawyer goes to mozilla.com, clicks Download. “By the plaintiff’s interpretation, as they have distributed the product to me, I now have an installed Firefox. Let’s go to the Start Menu and attempt to run it. Wait, hmm, I see no menu icons. Let’s look on the filesystem. Hmm, no folder. Oh, I see, there’s this additional step beyond distribution that I have to take to be able to use the product. What’s that additional step called? Installation. What do we call it when someone does something for us so that we don’t have to do it? A Service. Thank you, Your Hono(u)r (this is the UK after all, though it’d be M’Lord).” Might be dick-ish (subjectively). But the Mozilla claims that it’s clearly not allowed by their license or trademark (which implies no association), and the repetition of same by the article (and by numerous in the peanut gallery online) does not make it so - Dell’s response is correct.
- scott_karana 13y ago
  The point of contention: > ...the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be ... tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service
- jbigelow76 13y ago
  Can I pay Dell for the service of NOT installing McAffee?
  - millerm 13y ago
    Bazinga!
  - superuser2 13y ago
    Yes, buy enterprise-class hardware (Latitude, etc.) instead of the consumer brands (Inspiron, etc.) Dell also has a program for large enough IT departments where they'll use a buyer-provided disk image at the factory so machines can be deployed right out of the box.
    - qq66 13y ago
      That service helped me once. I broke my laptop and HP shipped me an imaged machine overnight with my employer's image on it so I only lost one day.
  - craigching 13y ago
    Why stop there? How about paying them not to install Windows, or any OS for that matter?
  - ne0codex 13y ago
    Not Dell, but the retail store where you got it. Most (Wal-Mart, OfficeMax/Depot, Best Buy) have their "Service plans" which is pretty much paying to get rid of misc software. Retailers gotta love that extra profit while the employees get a nice SPIF.
    - jbigelow76 13y ago
      When it comes to McAffee and Symantec I don't trust a regular uninstall. Until I do a clean install of the OS the machine is forever unclean (any fans of "The League" out there?)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
primitivesuave 13y ago
The only people who would need such a service are people who are completely technologically illiterate and only know of the Firefox brand, and those people may not be informed enough to know that it's free. Dell needs to weigh the gain of a small amount of money with the price of losing their integrity and consumer trust.
- thematt 13y ago
  I wasn't aware any PC manufacturers had integrity or consumer trust left, the least of which being Dell. Have you fired up a newly shipped Dell PC lately? It's a cesspool of crapware. No less than a dozen Dell Utilities, "anti-virus", media players, etc. Don't worry though, they'd be happy to work on your "slow" computer if you purchase the support add-on.
  - breakall 13y ago
    I was disappointed to find my new Lenovo Ideapad similarly loaded down with crap. Spent a few hours just installing nonsense.
    - ams6110 13y ago
      Pretty much all consumer PCs are that way. Do a clean OS reinstall out of the box. Unfortunately most consumer PCs don't ship with the media needed to do this.
      - kretor 13y ago
        No need for installation media when you're on Windows 8. It has a built-in reinstall/refresh function. Just go to the Start screen and type reinstall.
        GauntletWizard 13y ago
        And I trust the reinstall program that lives on the same system with this crapware why? I want a fresh install from Microsoft-signed media, not the crapware re-installing itself while it wipes all user-data. In the immortal words of Ellen Ripley: Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
kodablah 13y ago
Simple solution here... To remove the contention, Dell should make the fee appear for "additional software" even though FF is the only option. This will make it clear you are paying for the installation of additional software and not FF directly. And when they add another piece of additional software, I fully expect Dell won't include a separate charge since it's for "changing the stock image". On a side note, is this not automated? Is the installation of FF really done by a human? And if not, how is this different than a Ticketmaster-esque because-we-can fee?
- wdewind 13y ago
  > And if not, how is this different than a Ticketmaster-esque because-we-can fee? For one thing you aren't blocked from downloading and using Firefox if you don't purchase the installation option through Dell.
yeukhon 13y ago
On one hand, Dell seems to think there is a market of people willing to pay to install Firefox. Whoever conducted that research probably found people trusting Firefox than IE or Chrome or Opera. That's just my guess. I have heard people saying "web download is broken. You first have to use some browser like Chrome or IE to install Firefox, but what if that IE version is compromised? What if people click on the wrong mozilla.org by googling and instead installed a malicious, modified Mozilla firefox?" Maybe Dell read HNs and thought "yeah let's help the poor souls out there!" (http://noncombatant.org/2014/03/03/downloading-software-safely-is-nearly-impossible/ http://noncombatant.org/2014/03/03/downloading-software-safe...) On the other hand, this charging practice is ridiculous. I can understand some people are not technical at all (espeically the elders and new computer users), but come on, this is a ripe off. If you already created a custom image to load into every hard drive you sell to your customer, modify that image by adding Firefox. How much effort is that, Dell? edit: Does Dell's installation bundles with third-party addons? Remember the old toolbar spam? It would be interesting one day Dell decides to sell Tor installation service.
- nonchalance 13y ago
  I think there's a different force at play here: When the software comes with the computer, you can turn around and complain to Dell about the software. There is someone you can call, and generally it's rolled into the phone support contract. When the software is installed afterwards, you don't have the same ease of complaining. Dell can argue that Firefox somehow messed up your computer. That is a convenience many people are willing to pay for. Whether they would pay the 16£ is a different question
  - yeukhon 13y ago
    EDIT: Ha. I forgot IE is part of Windows, damn. Sure, but who's next on this service installation? I also want to make an analogy of asking Dell to upgrade 2GB to 4GB or to 8GB. I don't know how much an upgrade cost now, but a few years back it was about $20-$40? It was worth it to upgrade a hardware, not quite sure how it plays out asking Dell to install Firefox at ~$27 USD. Also consider Firefox upgrades every few months; things going to break, I don't know if Dell is ready to do GOOD support, or just one of those "have you tried power off and restart your computer?" This is also something Mozilla might need to look at as SUMO can get pretty overwhelming. The web is sometimes too technical to debug :(
Flott 13y ago
27$ in time to install Firefox? Dell PC are THAT slow?!
al2o3cr 13y ago
Um, 'cause they're dicks? :)
btgeekboy 13y ago
For what it's worth, it's far cheaper than having GeekSquad do it. For just $30, you can drop your computer off and have it installed in-store! http://www.geeksquad.com/services/computers-networking/software-installation.aspx http://www.geeksquad.com/services/computers-networking/softw...
- nacs 13y ago
  No it's not. £16.25 British Pound Sterling equals $27.17 US Dollar. So prices are almost identical and actually you could say Geeksquad has the better deal because they say they will install any software ("3-D imaging" programs and such which could have an install that is actually more involved than hitting next 4 times).
  - btgeekboy 13y ago
    You're right. When I said "it's cheaper" I was looking at the online chat one that's $40, and revised my comment to choose the cheaper option without editing the direct price comparison. Realistically, though, the cost of the service wasn't my point. Rather, it's that paying someone to install software for you is not unprecedented and completely legal. It may be a loophole that toes the line, sure, but toeing the line is not equivalent to crossing it.
interpol_p 13y ago
From the article: > “Dell Configuration Services, including the application loading service, ensure customers have a complete, ready to use product when it arrives,” How do they not get it this badly? Customers expect a complete and usable product just by purchasing it. Paying extra to ensure it is "ready and usable," is nonsense. Is this really what Dell thinks their customers want?
- Crito 13y ago
  Honestly I would rather Dell try to charge me to install extra crap than install it without asking/charging on the assumption that I want it (or more accurately, on the assumption that I won't be annoyed enough by it to pick a different vendor in the future).
  - interpol_p 13y ago
    My point was that if they consider their installation service something that makes their product "ready and usable," then it should not be an optional charge. (And in the end, isn't it just choosing a different disk image in their configuration system? Hardly a 'service.') I would want Dell to sell me a computer that they would be happy and proud to use themselves. Not try to fill up my shopping cart with optional extras, deals, and crap.
CmonDev 13y ago
Yes, it's Mozilla who should be paying people to have them install Firefox.

112 points by tweakz 13y ago

> Dell has responded saying that this practice is okay because the company is charging for the service and not the product.

dkuntz2 13y ago
> If you are using the Mozilla Mark(s) for the unaltered binaries you are distributing, you may not charge for that product. By not charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be subject to a fee, or tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service, or the collection of personal information. Specifically the "By not charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be subject to a fee" part.
- natdempk 13y ago
  Doesn't the purchasing a service part explicitly say Dell isn't allowed to do this? Am I reading this wrong somehow or are they just blatantly breaking the rules?
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    You are reading it wrong. The -distribution- of the software isn’t tied to the purchase of a service. Dell isn’t charging to put Firefox-setup.exe in your Downloads folder. They’re charging to install it. Granted, I think charging $18 to install a browser is entirely dickish behavior, but the legal nuances of ‘distribution’ versus ‘installation’ are neither subtle nor vague.
    - craigching 13y ago
      I don't want to take away from your argument, I agree with you 100%, but according to the article it's £16.26 or $27.18, so it's even worse than your $18. It's a ripoff and maybe they could be subject to fraud charges instead :p
  - userbinator 13y ago
    I know people who get paid by their friends for help setting up computers - often reformatting/reinstalling after malware infections - and I'd guess many of them would be installing Firefox for them too. Does it mean they can't do that according to Mozilla if they charge for the services? Dell gets picked on here, but I bet they're not the only ones who charge to install free software like Firefox.
    - russellsprouts 13y ago
      It's totally fine for anyone to charge to install Firefox -- the software is open source. They cannot advertise their services as a Mozilla Firefox Install Service -- Mozilla's trademark is not free. At the very least, you would have to be very clear that you are not affiliated with Mozilla in any way. It's pretty clear (to me - IANAL) that Dell is using Mozilla's trademark without their permission. If they called it Open Source Pre-Install Service, and explained that it includes Mozilla Firefox and some other software, I think it would be fine. https://tldrlegal.com/license/mozilla-public-license-2.0-%28mpl-2%29 https://tldrlegal.com/license/mozilla-public-license-2.0-%28...
- beejiu 13y ago
  On the other hand, the only mention of trademarks in the license is: > This License does not grant any rights in the trademarks, service marks, or logos of any Contributor This is unfortunately worded in Dell's favour, as any trademark policy from Mozilla will stand independently from the license. Furthermore, Dell is allowed to use Mozilla's trademark in a fair way, regardless of what their own policies say.
- nonchalance 13y ago
  The problem is that Mozilla's policy applies to distribution but not necessarily to installation. Since this is a legal issue, the details are very important. In this case, the process of ensuring that a functioning version of Firefox resides on the machine involves: 1. Transferring the Firefox software to the machine 2. Explicitly preparing the machine so that the Firefox software can be run (in this case, installing Firefox) The Policy only applies to the first item. No part of the policy refers to the second action, and it's fair game for Dell to charge a fee for the labor associated with installing the software (they cannot, of course, charge a fee for the part of the process where the software is distributed to the machine). If this sounds like nitpicking, welcome to the world of law
  - dkuntz2 13y ago
    There's also a prohibition against fees "tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service". This seems pretty much like a service being purchased... I accept that the law can be entirely arbitrary and based on tiny technicalities, but it seems like Dell's in the wrong here to me.
  - thedufer 13y ago
    I would be willing to bet that they aren't running an installer on each person's machine, though. If they created multiple disk images - one with FF, one without - and are charging to use the one with FF, then it looks like they're charging for distribution.
    - nonchalance 13y ago
      If they really did create two sets of disk images based on presence of Firefox, Dell could argue that the price is not for the software but for other differences between the disk images. Note that I'm not arguing about the spirit of the actions, but merely about whether Mozilla actually has a case here
      - tcheard 13y ago
        Not if they are selling the service as a "Mozilla Firefox Web Browser Installation Service"
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  No. The original article claimed that too, but there’s absolutely no way that interpretation would hold up in court. Lawyer goes to mozilla.com, clicks Download. “By the plaintiff’s interpretation, as they have distributed the product to me, I now have an installed Firefox. Let’s go to the Start Menu and attempt to run it. Wait, hmm, I see no menu icons. Let’s look on the filesystem. Hmm, no folder. Oh, I see, there’s this additional step beyond distribution that I have to take to be able to use the product. What’s that additional step called? Installation. What do we call it when someone does something for us so that we don’t have to do it? A Service. Thank you, Your Hono(u)r (this is the UK after all, though it’d be M’Lord).” Might be dick-ish (subjectively). But the Mozilla claims that it’s clearly not allowed by their license or trademark (which implies no association), and the repetition of same by the article (and by numerous in the peanut gallery online) does not make it so - Dell’s response is correct.
scott_karana 13y ago
The point of contention: > ...the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be ... tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service
jbigelow76 13y ago
Can I pay Dell for the service of NOT installing McAffee?
- millerm 13y ago
  Bazinga!
- superuser2 13y ago
  Yes, buy enterprise-class hardware (Latitude, etc.) instead of the consumer brands (Inspiron, etc.) Dell also has a program for large enough IT departments where they'll use a buyer-provided disk image at the factory so machines can be deployed right out of the box.
  - qq66 13y ago
    That service helped me once. I broke my laptop and HP shipped me an imaged machine overnight with my employer's image on it so I only lost one day.
- craigching 13y ago
  Why stop there? How about paying them not to install Windows, or any OS for that matter?
- ne0codex 13y ago
  Not Dell, but the retail store where you got it. Most (Wal-Mart, OfficeMax/Depot, Best Buy) have their "Service plans" which is pretty much paying to get rid of misc software. Retailers gotta love that extra profit while the employees get a nice SPIF.
  - jbigelow76 13y ago
    When it comes to McAffee and Symantec I don't trust a regular uninstall. Until I do a clean install of the OS the machine is forever unclean (any fans of "The League" out there?)

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

primitivesuave 13y ago

The only people who would need such a service are people who are completely technologically illiterate and only know of the Firefox brand, and those people may not be informed enough to know that it's free. Dell needs to weigh the gain of a small amount of money with the price of losing their integrity and consumer trust.

thematt 13y ago
I wasn't aware any PC manufacturers had integrity or consumer trust left, the least of which being Dell. Have you fired up a newly shipped Dell PC lately? It's a cesspool of crapware. No less than a dozen Dell Utilities, "anti-virus", media players, etc. Don't worry though, they'd be happy to work on your "slow" computer if you purchase the support add-on.
- breakall 13y ago
  I was disappointed to find my new Lenovo Ideapad similarly loaded down with crap. Spent a few hours just installing nonsense.
  - ams6110 13y ago
    Pretty much all consumer PCs are that way. Do a clean OS reinstall out of the box. Unfortunately most consumer PCs don't ship with the media needed to do this.
    - kretor 13y ago
      No need for installation media when you're on Windows 8. It has a built-in reinstall/refresh function. Just go to the Start screen and type reinstall.
      - GauntletWizard 13y ago
        And I trust the reinstall program that lives on the same system with this crapware why? I want a fresh install from Microsoft-signed media, not the crapware re-installing itself while it wipes all user-data. In the immortal words of Ellen Ripley: Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

kodablah 13y ago

Simple solution here... To remove the contention, Dell should make the fee appear for "additional software" even though FF is the only option. This will make it clear you are paying for the installation of additional software and not FF directly. And when they add another piece of additional software, I fully expect Dell won't include a separate charge since it's for "changing the stock image". On a side note, is this not automated? Is the installation of FF really done by a human? And if not, how is this different than a Ticketmaster-esque because-we-can fee?

wdewind 13y ago
> And if not, how is this different than a Ticketmaster-esque because-we-can fee? For one thing you aren't blocked from downloading and using Firefox if you don't purchase the installation option through Dell.

yeukhon 13y ago

On one hand, Dell seems to think there is a market of people willing to pay to install Firefox. Whoever conducted that research probably found people trusting Firefox than IE or Chrome or Opera. That's just my guess. I have heard people saying "web download is broken. You first have to use some browser like Chrome or IE to install Firefox, but what if that IE version is compromised? What if people click on the wrong mozilla.org by googling and instead installed a malicious, modified Mozilla firefox?" Maybe Dell read HNs and thought "yeah let's help the poor souls out there!" (http://noncombatant.org/2014/03/03/downloading-software-safely-is-nearly-impossible/ http://noncombatant.org/2014/03/03/downloading-software-safe...) On the other hand, this charging practice is ridiculous. I can understand some people are not technical at all (espeically the elders and new computer users), but come on, this is a ripe off. If you already created a custom image to load into every hard drive you sell to your customer, modify that image by adding Firefox. How much effort is that, Dell? edit: Does Dell's installation bundles with third-party addons? Remember the old toolbar spam? It would be interesting one day Dell decides to sell Tor installation service.

nonchalance 13y ago
I think there's a different force at play here: When the software comes with the computer, you can turn around and complain to Dell about the software. There is someone you can call, and generally it's rolled into the phone support contract. When the software is installed afterwards, you don't have the same ease of complaining. Dell can argue that Firefox somehow messed up your computer. That is a convenience many people are willing to pay for. Whether they would pay the 16£ is a different question
- yeukhon 13y ago
  EDIT: Ha. I forgot IE is part of Windows, damn. Sure, but who's next on this service installation? I also want to make an analogy of asking Dell to upgrade 2GB to 4GB or to 8GB. I don't know how much an upgrade cost now, but a few years back it was about $20-$40? It was worth it to upgrade a hardware, not quite sure how it plays out asking Dell to install Firefox at ~$27 USD. Also consider Firefox upgrades every few months; things going to break, I don't know if Dell is ready to do GOOD support, or just one of those "have you tried power off and restart your computer?" This is also something Mozilla might need to look at as SUMO can get pretty overwhelming. The web is sometimes too technical to debug :(

Flott 13y ago

27$ in time to install Firefox? Dell PC are THAT slow?!

al2o3cr 13y ago

Um, 'cause they're dicks? :)

btgeekboy 13y ago

For what it's worth, it's far cheaper than having GeekSquad do it. For just $30, you can drop your computer off and have it installed in-store! http://www.geeksquad.com/services/computers-networking/software-installation.aspx http://www.geeksquad.com/services/computers-networking/softw...

nacs 13y ago
No it's not. £16.25 British Pound Sterling equals $27.17 US Dollar. So prices are almost identical and actually you could say Geeksquad has the better deal because they say they will install any software ("3-D imaging" programs and such which could have an install that is actually more involved than hitting next 4 times).
- btgeekboy 13y ago
  You're right. When I said "it's cheaper" I was looking at the online chat one that's $40, and revised my comment to choose the cheaper option without editing the direct price comparison. Realistically, though, the cost of the service wasn't my point. Rather, it's that paying someone to install software for you is not unprecedented and completely legal. It may be a loophole that toes the line, sure, but toeing the line is not equivalent to crossing it.

interpol_p 13y ago

From the article: > “Dell Configuration Services, including the application loading service, ensure customers have a complete, ready to use product when it arrives,” How do they not get it this badly? Customers expect a complete and usable product just by purchasing it. Paying extra to ensure it is "ready and usable," is nonsense. Is this really what Dell thinks their customers want?

Crito 13y ago
Honestly I would rather Dell try to charge me to install extra crap than install it without asking/charging on the assumption that I want it (or more accurately, on the assumption that I won't be annoyed enough by it to pick a different vendor in the future).
- interpol_p 13y ago
  My point was that if they consider their installation service something that makes their product "ready and usable," then it should not be an optional charge. (And in the end, isn't it just choosing a different disk image in their configuration system? Hardly a 'service.') I would want Dell to sell me a computer that they would be happy and proud to use themselves. Not try to fill up my shopping cart with optional extras, deals, and crap.

CmonDev 13y ago

Yes, it's Mozilla who should be paying people to have them install Firefox.