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> I don't care about women in tech. I've noticed. When you collect a few more life experiences, perhaps get a decade of career under your belt, you'll learn h

> I don't care about women in tech. I've noticed. When you collect a few more life experiences, perhaps get a decade of career under your belt, you'll learn how toxic it is when monocultures form. You'll learn about the blind spots. The exclusion. The lack of productive conflict from varying ideas. And perhaps at that point you'll learn why "caring about people in tech" means caring that no people feel actively excluded from its prosperity. Until then, your callousness makes you emphatically the sort of dime-a-dozen, utterly common, entirely unoriginal personalities that make me want to walk out of this industry and lock the door behind me forever. Good luck on your journey.

GhotiFish 13y ago
That's perhaps too harsh. You hear from people who are physically handicapped that the thing they hate most is the contrast in treatment. They want to be treated normally. A different person in a different perspective gets treated differently because they are viewed as different. A common complaint. Is he being empathetic or indifferent? I dunno, but it's hard not to say to yourself "Women are being treated differently, that is what is keeping them out, so I will endeavour not to treat them differently." Is that misguided?
- danilocampos 13y ago
  You're sure busy on this thread for someone who claims not to have opinions or skin in the game. > Is that misguided? Completely. Being a woman isn't having a handicap. Being brown isn't having a handicap. At least it isn't to my mind. Is it to yours? When you go and talk to people who are women or brown or some intersection of these, one thing that's clear is that they feel much more comfortable when interacting with other folks whose lives and paths look like theirs. Their life stories are different from those most commonly represented, so increasing representation means finding people who can speak from a common perspective. And that's before I even get into the patterns of harassment and aggression that are reported to me consistently from every. single. female colleague I know. That's before getting into the challenges female founders face in presenting their companies to a VC industry that's overwhelmingly male and therefore under-equipped to evaluate a huge swath of verticals and opportunities. None of this is abstract. All it requires is knowing people who aren't young, white males.
  - GhotiFish 13y ago
    you did it again. > I don't care about women in tech. ... > I care about people in tech. Why would you conclude my position was: handicapped -> different perspective women -> different perspective women -> handicapped Please don't do that.
  - oh_sigh 13y ago
    > Being a woman isn't having a handicap. Being brown isn't having a handicap. At least it isn't to my mind. Is it to yours? Is being handicapped a handicap? I can't walk. Am I handicapped when it comes to creating code, or starting an tech company? I'm not in my mind. Am I in yours? > When you go and talk to people who are women or brown or some intersection of these, one thing that's clear is that they feel much more comfortable when interacting with other folks whose lives and paths look like theirs. Good job of lumping billions of unique personalities into a single viewpoint. I'm sure some women and brown people feel that way. I'm also sure some women and brown people feel the exact opposite, and some women and brown people have an opinion that is neither of the two stated. > And that's before I even get into the patterns of harassment and aggression that are reported to me consistently from every. single. female colleague I know. Really? Every single female colleague you know consistently reports patterns of harassment and aggression? Did you ever consider that maybe your workplace is broken, and not society? Why isn't your workplace getting rid of the harrassors and aggressors, or taking any action at all to fix its obvious brokenness? > All it requires is knowing people who aren't young, white males. I'm not young, and I'm not a white male. But that's also irrelevant.
    - danilocampos 13y ago
      I typed that from a perspective of gross ableism and that was entirely insensitive. Please accept my apologies for that. The rest of what you said is silly and not really worth responding to, but I was a dick and need to own that.
    - Crake 13y ago
      You disagreed with him, there's no way you could be anything BUT a young white male! Stop appropriating your own oppression! (I also hated the disability metaphor.)
- vacri 13y ago
  So essentially you're saying that wheelchair ramps shouldn't be installed because we need to maintain an ironclad everone-gets-exactly-the-same-treatment position? A ramp serves only a very select part of the population, therefore it isn't 'fair' and should be shunned? Women are being treated differently, that is what is keeping them out, so I will endeavour not to treat them differently? The flaw here is the fundamental flaw in libertarianism: there is no mechanism for evening the playing field. People who already have significant advantage get to keep their significant advantage. Being born into wealth doesn't just mean you have money - you also get a social network, plus you grow up learning about how to handle money and assets, amongst other things. Having classes intended to help people not born into privilege is about trying to level the playing field, not oppress the privileged. Sometimes I wonder just how many of the vocal "how dare women get their own classes" crew have anything to do with providing education at all.
  - dovel 13y ago
    People are ignorant to the material effects of oppression. I'm not sure how sometimes, especially on hacker news, since everyone in this thread wouldn't start discussing some small aspect of a programming language they have never used. But if they wanted to, they would look it up and the contribute. When it comes to anything social and therefore political people are throwing words around and they do not even understand what they are saying. Your ramp example is spot on. And to take it a little bit further. Some of the posters in this thread are at the top of the stairs, staring down at everyone who can't get up them AND refusing to help them. The fact that these people are validating these attitudes in a way that actually serves to destroy their own point just shows that people in this thread with these views have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. If you are uninformed/ can't follow your train of though to its logical conclusions PLEASE do some reading.
    - GhotiFish 13y ago
      That metaphor is funny, wouldn't you resent those posters if they did?
      - 13y ago
- dovel 13y ago
  Hi there. I thought I would reply to your post in it's entirety, as a 'handicapped' person and as a person aware of why events like this are good, and not bad. 1) Check the origins of the term handicap - it is derogatory. I'm sure some people will call this OTT or political correctness but whatever. The term 'impairment' is a good choice, mobility impairment, physical impairment. To those reading this who think it is political correctness I will put it in hacker news terms: There are ways of referring to potential customers in a way that ensures nothing you say will stop someone using your service. Anyway, check this out if you are interested in that [1] - it is a history of meaning of commonly used terms used to refer to impaired individuals. I know this was not the main part of your post but I thought I might as well mention it. Disability studies is a growing field and might as well be promoted here. 2) In order for minorities, for instance disabled people, to gain equal rights - in this case equal opportunity of entry into CS fields, it serves the effort well to be a group of people. It brings confidence that you are right, that you must be taken seriously and that attention should be placed on the issue. For instance. If I am in a wheelchair and I am being forbidden entry to a building because of no ramp, or if I am being mocked and belittled. These are experiences that non-impaired individuals can empathise with, but they have not experienced it. So if I have experienced oppression I want to talk to other people who have, figure out what is necessary to change it and build up a group of people that can symbolise to other impaired individuals that while they may have to put up with the shit they get from other people, it is those people that are wrong. So, if you take out the oppression part and look at a different social experience it might become more obvious. Lets say someone in your close family has died. Whenever it comes up with friends or acquaintances who you know haven't experienced it you might be met with pity, sympathy, apologies or whatever. It makes you cringe a bit because people skirt over the topic because they don't know how to deal with it. Then one time you are talking to someone and it comes up that you have lost a close family member and it turns out they have too, and in a very similar way to you. Not only do you instantly feel comfortable talking to this person about this topic because they have experienced it, you also get to discuss how everyone else is ill-equiped to deal with such news mid way through a catchup, or whatever. What I am saying is that, in a field such as tech, I would not be surprised if women would feel most comfortable relating to women as it is something that defines their experience and they can relate to each other directly. So, having these female founders as proof, as encouragement and as a tool for not just solidarity amongst women in tech but ALL in tech (because think about it: how many non-gender specific founders conferences have been all men, without specified as such). I think this is a good thing and I think that being indifferent to the problem is really not worth posting about on a forum. Good for you, you want everyone to be treated the same but you don't want to do anything about it. And you feel so strongly about it you decided to post it here (that is aimed at the guy you replied to, not you). Change does not occur by ignoring difference. It requires being pro-active and the organisers of this conference and the females speaking at it are doing just that. [1] - http://disability-studies.leeds.ac.uk/files/library/Clark-Laurence-language.pdf http://disability-studies.leeds.ac.uk/files/library/Clark-La...
- DanBC 13y ago
  > You hear from people who are physically handicapped that the thing they hate most is the contrast in treatment. They want to be treated normally. You also hear that they needed legislation to prevent employers discriminating against them and that the idea of reasonable adjustment was a powerful driver in in reasing employment among people with disabilities.
oh_sigh 13y ago
> When you collect a few more life experiences, perhaps get a decade of career under your belt, you'll learn how toxic it is when monocultures form. Perhaps when you collect a few more life experiences, you will realize that saying "When you grow up/stop being immature/a child/etc you'll share my opinion on X, Y, and Z" isn't providing any support for your positions, and even if you was, it is not an effective argument either.
- gphilip 13y ago
  > saying "When you grow up/stop being immature/a child/etc you'll share my opinion on X, Y, and Z" isn't providing any support for your positions, and even if you was, it is not an effective argument either. To me that looks more like a literary construct (intended to make the argument more "beautiful", if that is the right word) rather than a logical construct. I read the "meaning" of their post as: "After I got some experience/a decade of career under my belt, I learnt how toxic ...". Except phrased in a more "literary" way.
  - oh_sigh 13y ago
    That's fine. But it still doesn't attempt to show why it is toxic/bad/whatever. If the point of discussions on hackernews is just to take a roll call of opinions, then the first two posts in this thread are on the right track. But if the purpose of discussions are to inform, and persuade, then I would say the posts failed miserably.
    - aaronbrethorst 13y ago
      Inform: I personally would expect that the representation of a given gender, religion or race in an arbitrary body (a school, a company, an industry, a governing body, etc.) would pretty closely match the representation of the gender/religion/race/etc. in society at large. The tech industry is clearly falling flat on its face when it comes to adequate representation of women. Persuade: Do you really need me to spell out why this is a good thing?
      - 13y ago
DenisM 13y ago
Kindly stop attacking the personality of your opponent, and focus on the point they are making. Disagreement is no excuse for being rude.
maxerickson 13y ago
Do you think this tone and style of lecture is a good way to get people to hear the things you want them to hear?
Crake 13y ago
Oh geez, what was I thinking, you're totally right. You've convinced me, I'll shut up and check my white cishet male shitlord privilege. >You'll learn about the blind spots. The exclusion. >you'll learn how toxic it is when monocultures form >The lack of productive conflict Said the SJW to the minority, with absolutely no self-awareness at all.
- danilocampos 13y ago
  I think you'll find /r/mensrights is on another website. I am sure they will welcome you there.
  - spaceborn 13y ago
    Why don't you address the comment you're responding to instead of lobbing insults?
    - danilocampos 13y ago
      ...because there's no meaningful substance to address, for starters?
  - Crake 13y ago
    Oh good. I finally found a feminist who'll admit that their rivals are nicer to egalitarians than feminists are.
drreddit 13y ago
Wow, you certainly seem like a waste of life
belorn 13y ago
Please, don't try insult people who say they are humanist rather than pro-male or pro-female. Not only is it offensive, but the very statement say that sexism is the only cure to sexism and anyone else are wrong, ignorant, and do not care about "people". I would say that people that make such statement don't care how people feel. If you can't behave, do please walk out.
spaceborn 13y ago
How incredibly rude and condescending. Is there some good reason you chose not to include his whole statement in your quote? If you have to misrepresent the views of those you disagree with in order to argue your own point, it might be the case that your own argument has no value.
tiredoflurking 13y ago
The amount of tone-policing you've received for this comment absolutely floors me. My perception from this thread is that men can say whatever offensive thing they want about women, but as soon as someone says something that might be slightly harsh in defense, suddenly people care about the tone of the argument. Suddenly you're "attacking."
- maxerickson 13y ago
  My comment really does mostly come from the perspective of 'why not try to increase the effectiveness of your communication', not policing tone.
- Crake 13y ago
  Ah, the good old "whoever disagrees with me MUST be a man" argument. Pro-tip: women are capable of independent thinking. Some of them are not going to agree with what you decree is best for them.

GhotiFish 13y ago

That's perhaps too harsh. You hear from people who are physically handicapped that the thing they hate most is the contrast in treatment. They want to be treated normally. A different person in a different perspective gets treated differently because they are viewed as different. A common complaint. Is he being empathetic or indifferent? I dunno, but it's hard not to say to yourself "Women are being treated differently, that is what is keeping them out, so I will endeavour not to treat them differently." Is that misguided?

danilocampos 13y ago
You're sure busy on this thread for someone who claims not to have opinions or skin in the game. > Is that misguided? Completely. Being a woman isn't having a handicap. Being brown isn't having a handicap. At least it isn't to my mind. Is it to yours? When you go and talk to people who are women or brown or some intersection of these, one thing that's clear is that they feel much more comfortable when interacting with other folks whose lives and paths look like theirs. Their life stories are different from those most commonly represented, so increasing representation means finding people who can speak from a common perspective. And that's before I even get into the patterns of harassment and aggression that are reported to me consistently from every. single. female colleague I know. That's before getting into the challenges female founders face in presenting their companies to a VC industry that's overwhelmingly male and therefore under-equipped to evaluate a huge swath of verticals and opportunities. None of this is abstract. All it requires is knowing people who aren't young, white males.
- GhotiFish 13y ago
  you did it again. > I don't care about women in tech. ... > I care about people in tech. Why would you conclude my position was: handicapped -> different perspective women -> different perspective women -> handicapped Please don't do that.
- oh_sigh 13y ago
  > Being a woman isn't having a handicap. Being brown isn't having a handicap. At least it isn't to my mind. Is it to yours? Is being handicapped a handicap? I can't walk. Am I handicapped when it comes to creating code, or starting an tech company? I'm not in my mind. Am I in yours? > When you go and talk to people who are women or brown or some intersection of these, one thing that's clear is that they feel much more comfortable when interacting with other folks whose lives and paths look like theirs. Good job of lumping billions of unique personalities into a single viewpoint. I'm sure some women and brown people feel that way. I'm also sure some women and brown people feel the exact opposite, and some women and brown people have an opinion that is neither of the two stated. > And that's before I even get into the patterns of harassment and aggression that are reported to me consistently from every. single. female colleague I know. Really? Every single female colleague you know consistently reports patterns of harassment and aggression? Did you ever consider that maybe your workplace is broken, and not society? Why isn't your workplace getting rid of the harrassors and aggressors, or taking any action at all to fix its obvious brokenness? > All it requires is knowing people who aren't young, white males. I'm not young, and I'm not a white male. But that's also irrelevant.
  - danilocampos 13y ago
    I typed that from a perspective of gross ableism and that was entirely insensitive. Please accept my apologies for that. The rest of what you said is silly and not really worth responding to, but I was a dick and need to own that.
  - Crake 13y ago
    You disagreed with him, there's no way you could be anything BUT a young white male! Stop appropriating your own oppression! (I also hated the disability metaphor.)
vacri 13y ago
So essentially you're saying that wheelchair ramps shouldn't be installed because we need to maintain an ironclad everone-gets-exactly-the-same-treatment position? A ramp serves only a very select part of the population, therefore it isn't 'fair' and should be shunned? Women are being treated differently, that is what is keeping them out, so I will endeavour not to treat them differently? The flaw here is the fundamental flaw in libertarianism: there is no mechanism for evening the playing field. People who already have significant advantage get to keep their significant advantage. Being born into wealth doesn't just mean you have money - you also get a social network, plus you grow up learning about how to handle money and assets, amongst other things. Having classes intended to help people not born into privilege is about trying to level the playing field, not oppress the privileged. Sometimes I wonder just how many of the vocal "how dare women get their own classes" crew have anything to do with providing education at all.
- dovel 13y ago
  People are ignorant to the material effects of oppression. I'm not sure how sometimes, especially on hacker news, since everyone in this thread wouldn't start discussing some small aspect of a programming language they have never used. But if they wanted to, they would look it up and the contribute. When it comes to anything social and therefore political people are throwing words around and they do not even understand what they are saying. Your ramp example is spot on. And to take it a little bit further. Some of the posters in this thread are at the top of the stairs, staring down at everyone who can't get up them AND refusing to help them. The fact that these people are validating these attitudes in a way that actually serves to destroy their own point just shows that people in this thread with these views have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. If you are uninformed/ can't follow your train of though to its logical conclusions PLEASE do some reading.
  - GhotiFish 13y ago
    That metaphor is funny, wouldn't you resent those posters if they did?
    - 13y ago
dovel 13y ago
Hi there. I thought I would reply to your post in it's entirety, as a 'handicapped' person and as a person aware of why events like this are good, and not bad. 1) Check the origins of the term handicap - it is derogatory. I'm sure some people will call this OTT or political correctness but whatever. The term 'impairment' is a good choice, mobility impairment, physical impairment. To those reading this who think it is political correctness I will put it in hacker news terms: There are ways of referring to potential customers in a way that ensures nothing you say will stop someone using your service. Anyway, check this out if you are interested in that [1] - it is a history of meaning of commonly used terms used to refer to impaired individuals. I know this was not the main part of your post but I thought I might as well mention it. Disability studies is a growing field and might as well be promoted here. 2) In order for minorities, for instance disabled people, to gain equal rights - in this case equal opportunity of entry into CS fields, it serves the effort well to be a group of people. It brings confidence that you are right, that you must be taken seriously and that attention should be placed on the issue. For instance. If I am in a wheelchair and I am being forbidden entry to a building because of no ramp, or if I am being mocked and belittled. These are experiences that non-impaired individuals can empathise with, but they have not experienced it. So if I have experienced oppression I want to talk to other people who have, figure out what is necessary to change it and build up a group of people that can symbolise to other impaired individuals that while they may have to put up with the shit they get from other people, it is those people that are wrong. So, if you take out the oppression part and look at a different social experience it might become more obvious. Lets say someone in your close family has died. Whenever it comes up with friends or acquaintances who you know haven't experienced it you might be met with pity, sympathy, apologies or whatever. It makes you cringe a bit because people skirt over the topic because they don't know how to deal with it. Then one time you are talking to someone and it comes up that you have lost a close family member and it turns out they have too, and in a very similar way to you. Not only do you instantly feel comfortable talking to this person about this topic because they have experienced it, you also get to discuss how everyone else is ill-equiped to deal with such news mid way through a catchup, or whatever. What I am saying is that, in a field such as tech, I would not be surprised if women would feel most comfortable relating to women as it is something that defines their experience and they can relate to each other directly. So, having these female founders as proof, as encouragement and as a tool for not just solidarity amongst women in tech but ALL in tech (because think about it: how many non-gender specific founders conferences have been all men, without specified as such). I think this is a good thing and I think that being indifferent to the problem is really not worth posting about on a forum. Good for you, you want everyone to be treated the same but you don't want to do anything about it. And you feel so strongly about it you decided to post it here (that is aimed at the guy you replied to, not you). Change does not occur by ignoring difference. It requires being pro-active and the organisers of this conference and the females speaking at it are doing just that. [1] - http://disability-studies.leeds.ac.uk/files/library/Clark-Laurence-language.pdf http://disability-studies.leeds.ac.uk/files/library/Clark-La...
DanBC 13y ago
> You hear from people who are physically handicapped that the thing they hate most is the contrast in treatment. They want to be treated normally. You also hear that they needed legislation to prevent employers discriminating against them and that the idea of reasonable adjustment was a powerful driver in in reasing employment among people with disabilities.

oh_sigh 13y ago

> When you collect a few more life experiences, perhaps get a decade of career under your belt, you'll learn how toxic it is when monocultures form. Perhaps when you collect a few more life experiences, you will realize that saying "When you grow up/stop being immature/a child/etc you'll share my opinion on X, Y, and Z" isn't providing any support for your positions, and even if you was, it is not an effective argument either.

gphilip 13y ago
> saying "When you grow up/stop being immature/a child/etc you'll share my opinion on X, Y, and Z" isn't providing any support for your positions, and even if you was, it is not an effective argument either. To me that looks more like a literary construct (intended to make the argument more "beautiful", if that is the right word) rather than a logical construct. I read the "meaning" of their post as: "After I got some experience/a decade of career under my belt, I learnt how toxic ...". Except phrased in a more "literary" way.
- oh_sigh 13y ago
  That's fine. But it still doesn't attempt to show why it is toxic/bad/whatever. If the point of discussions on hackernews is just to take a roll call of opinions, then the first two posts in this thread are on the right track. But if the purpose of discussions are to inform, and persuade, then I would say the posts failed miserably.
  - aaronbrethorst 13y ago
    Inform: I personally would expect that the representation of a given gender, religion or race in an arbitrary body (a school, a company, an industry, a governing body, etc.) would pretty closely match the representation of the gender/religion/race/etc. in society at large. The tech industry is clearly falling flat on its face when it comes to adequate representation of women. Persuade: Do you really need me to spell out why this is a good thing?
    - 13y ago

DenisM 13y ago

Kindly stop attacking the personality of your opponent, and focus on the point they are making. Disagreement is no excuse for being rude.

maxerickson 13y ago

Do you think this tone and style of lecture is a good way to get people to hear the things you want them to hear?

Crake 13y ago

Oh geez, what was I thinking, you're totally right. You've convinced me, I'll shut up and check my white cishet male shitlord privilege. >You'll learn about the blind spots. The exclusion. >you'll learn how toxic it is when monocultures form >The lack of productive conflict Said the SJW to the minority, with absolutely no self-awareness at all.

danilocampos 13y ago
I think you'll find /r/mensrights is on another website. I am sure they will welcome you there.
- spaceborn 13y ago
  Why don't you address the comment you're responding to instead of lobbing insults?
  - danilocampos 13y ago
    ...because there's no meaningful substance to address, for starters?
- Crake 13y ago
  Oh good. I finally found a feminist who'll admit that their rivals are nicer to egalitarians than feminists are.

drreddit 13y ago

Wow, you certainly seem like a waste of life

belorn 13y ago

Please, don't try insult people who say they are humanist rather than pro-male or pro-female. Not only is it offensive, but the very statement say that sexism is the only cure to sexism and anyone else are wrong, ignorant, and do not care about "people". I would say that people that make such statement don't care how people feel. If you can't behave, do please walk out.

spaceborn 13y ago

How incredibly rude and condescending. Is there some good reason you chose not to include his whole statement in your quote? If you have to misrepresent the views of those you disagree with in order to argue your own point, it might be the case that your own argument has no value.

tiredoflurking 13y ago

The amount of tone-policing you've received for this comment absolutely floors me. My perception from this thread is that men can say whatever offensive thing they want about women, but as soon as someone says something that might be slightly harsh in defense, suddenly people care about the tone of the argument. Suddenly you're "attacking."

maxerickson 13y ago
My comment really does mostly come from the perspective of 'why not try to increase the effectiveness of your communication', not policing tone.
Crake 13y ago
Ah, the good old "whoever disagrees with me MUST be a man" argument. Pro-tip: women are capable of independent thinking. Some of them are not going to agree with what you decree is best for them.