14 ms·

Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

170 points by ytNumbers 13y ago

gondo 13y ago
live stream http://rt.com/on-air/embed/global/ http://rt.com/on-air/embed/global/
- obiterdictum 13y ago
  RT (of course) gives such a different view from Western media, it may as well be a completely different story. Right now, for example, it tells how "armed extremists sent from Kiev tried to seize government buildings in Crimea".
  - osipov 13y ago
    truth is the first casualty at the time of war. hence you want to see propaganda from both sides.
  - iaskwhy 13y ago
    And usually none of the versions is the correct one... That specific part might talk about some groups of people (not army related) trying to do what some other did in other cities of Ukraine. It's hard to know what's true and what's not.
- vrepsys 13y ago
  before watching this please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network) "..funded by the federal budget of Russia..", "Since its foundation in 2005, RT has been widely accused as being a mouthpiece of the Kremlin."
danmaz74 13y ago
It looks to me like it was all organized from the start: If using the economic pressure of gas prices wasn't enough to keep Ukraine in the Russian sphere of influence, they were ready to seize Crimea and maybe something more...
- toyg 13y ago
  Russia just cannot lose Crimea. It was silly for EU and especially US pols to think Ukraine could be snatched from Putin wholesale (and using neonazis, no less).
  - danmaz74 13y ago
    From the word "snatched", it looks like in your opinion Ukraine was Putin's property... or was it protectorate?
    - toyg 13y ago
      Spheres of influence are real. If Panama fell under a Russian-friendly government likely to stop US vessels going through the strait, would the US government just sit there, "respecting the democratic rights of the citizens of Panama"?
      - danmaz74 13y ago
        First of all, the Ukrainian government wasn't bent on stopping Russian anything, AFAIK. Second, I morally condemned many acts from the USA, like the second war in Iraq based on evidently fake accusations of weapons of mass destruction. So, why shouldn't I condemn even more baseless acts from Russia?
        toyg 13y ago
        "Baseless"? Crimea is populated by a majority of ethnic Russians, it's the most strategic base for the Russian Fleet to access the hugely-critical Mediterranean Sea, and it's a potentially key location to get gas from Russia to the European market without going through central Ukraine. In the last decade, when a Ukrainian government turned pro-US, they threatened to stop the all-important flow of gas; this is something Russia simply cannot allow to happen, it would destroy the country. The (elected) government of Ukraine has just been deposed by street protests directed by right-wing extremists, half of the country is in shambles and the newly established government's first act was to attempt to abolish a language law aimed at favouring Russian-speaking minorities (not exactly a priority, when the economy is tanking and half your police force has been disbanded). It's reasonable to believe that gas pipelines are threatened and that a revolutionary government might choose not to respect previous agreements, since there is a fairly recent precedent (2009, iirc); also, it's fair to expect that such a ragtag of right-wing ideologues will likely make the life of Crimean-Russians very uncomfortable very quickly. I personally don't see Putin's actions as "baseless" or irrational -- he's defending Russian interests that are clearly threatened. It's very simple and quite unsophisticated, but I don't see the moral scandal.
xixixao 13y ago
I am glad this has finally got to the top of HN. People should be aware of the fact that a part of sovereign country is being aggressively annexed by their neighbor. And there is virtually no opposition to Putin in Russia.
- davidw 13y ago
  > I am glad this has finally got to the top of HN Because once HN is aware of it, we'll... uhm... Send Putin some nasty Perl scripts? This, like almost all political / breaking news stories, is probably off topic for this site, given the guidelines: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." This will probably be the opening item on most TV news shows this evening. It's currently the lead article on www.cnn.com www.corriere.it www.bbc.com/news/ etc...
  - coherentpony 13y ago
    I don't know why you're being downvoted. This is entirely accurate.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    I really wish "complaining about stuff being off-topic" was also against the guidelines. Oh wait, it is: "Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did."
    - davidw 13y ago
      If no one points it out, people won't learn. You folks can downvote all you want. I am more than willing to spend my "karma" to attempt to preserve this site from politics. Also, while we're being picky, "I wish it were", not "I wish it was".
mahoro 13y ago
Parliament approved (by 100% votes). Unbelievable.
- TazeTSchnitzel 13y ago
  My reaction as well. I suppose it must be true that United Russia are rigging all the polls.
  - trycatch 13y ago
    That's normal for Russia, sadly. Yesterday there was a voting about mandatory registration of all web sites in Roskomnadzor (heavily controversial bill). 438 for, 0 against, 0 abstained. Russian democracy.
adamlj 13y ago
This could turn ugly really fast. If Russia attacks Ukraine the US and Britain would have to protect the borders of Ukraine, according to a treaty signed in 1994 [0]. If the US don't follow the treaty I guess we will know how much these treatys really are worth. [0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-Briti...
- bananas 13y ago
  Is there another source other than the daily mail i.e. one with an ounce of credibility?
  - noir_lord 13y ago
    Good on you for not trusting the Daily Mail, it's not even a rag at this point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security...
    - bananas 13y ago
      Depends what you're wiping with it ;) Thanks for posting a more balanced and altogether less scary sounding article with references.
      - vixen99 13y ago
        Don't bother to back up you cliched attack on a popular tabloid newspaper. Much more fun to recycle the old epithets. What amuses me is that way hypercritical folk evidently read the Daily Mail (along with the other on a regular basis else how can they be so adamant concerning it's 'rag' characteristics? Seems to be a moveable feast on HN. Independent reports say that the DM has the largest online readership in the world at around 44 million. Disputable of course; remarkable that so few of these people (if any) appear have made a buck or two by suing the paper for telling all the lies it's supposed to peddle.
StephenFalken 13y ago
It would be interesting to discuss how Ukraine got into this kind of situation ([1] [2]) and what are the "natural" consequences of it. Somehow it feels we are not dealing with a single country anymore. [1] http://i.imgur.com/1iiXqHN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1iiXqHN.jpg [2] http://i.imgur.com/eNo56LZ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eNo56LZ.jpg
- rangibaby 13y ago
  Crimea is "Russian", it was granted from the Russian SSR to the Ukrainian SSR by Khrushchev in the 50s. It's interesting that the situation is playing out pretty much according to this blog post: http://cluborlov.blogspot.jp/2014/02/shock-over-ukraine.html http://cluborlov.blogspot.jp/2014/02/shock-over-ukraine.html "Most of them don't even know what it is they are protesting, but, in essence, they are protesting the very existence of their country, which is made up of two parts: Eastern Poland, which is Ukrainian-speaking and predominantly Catholic, and Western Russia, which is Russian-speaking and predominantly Orthodox. The “Russians” outnumber the “Ukrainians” two to one. The ultimate resolution to the crisis lies in partitioning the country. Nobody has the stomach to even talk about it—yet. But until that happens we will continue being subjected to this strange spectacle, where every single actor in Ukraine does everything possible to undermine the country's political system. Deep down, the Ukrainians don't want there to be a different government in Kiev—they don't want there to be a government in Kiev at all."
  - ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
    Ukraine has never been controlled by the government of the Russian Federation.
  - afterburner 13y ago
    I agree separation seems to be the elephant in the room, but ignoring the separate Ukrainian language is somewhat oversimplifying. If the language spoken in Kiev was Polish, then maybe you'd have a case about the Poland bit.
    - 13y ago
yardie 13y ago
It's a crazy situation all around. Russia has a military base in the Ukraine, in Crimea. If Cuba had a modern day revolution would the US not send in troops to Guantanamo? Would we be in the wrong for doing so? Even if the interim government was more US friendly?
- aaron-lebo 13y ago
  I tend to agree that the US would take such steps, but if the US decided to control larger portions of the country than just their bases (which is what is sounds like Russia is doing), that is a major problem and more than just protecting a military asset.
  - rangibaby 13y ago
    Who would it be a major problem for if Cuba was ostensibly part of another state, yet had a population of 60% Americans and a newly anti-American government?
    - zeckalpha 13y ago
      The analogy doesn't hold, as Cuba's present government is nominally anti-US.
- smsm42 13y ago
  There's a difference between sending troops to Guantanamo Bay military base and sending troops to take control of Guantanamo province.
gk1 13y ago
See what happened in Ukraine's neighboring country, Moldova, 24 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Transnistria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Transnistria Moldova had a population of ethnic Russians that lived on the Eastern bank of the river D'niest'r. (Similar to the Crimean region in Ukraine.) Eventually a civil war broke out, and Russia stepped in to back the ethnically Russian region (sound familiar?). The end result was a stalemate. A ceasefire was declared in 1992, and the ethnically Russian region decided to spin off its own government. They call themselves Pre'd'niest'rovia (or Transnistria), and function as an entirely separate country from Moldova. That means different language (Russian, not Moldovan), currency, parliament, military, etc etc. Yet Moldova never accepted it as a sovereign country, and neither did the rest of the world. To this day, when you see Moldova on a map you only see one country where really there are two. What's happening in Ukraine today is almost a mirror image. I suspect it will result either in a similar two-country situation with one being unrecognized, or the Eastern half of Ukraine will form a new country. PS - I was born in Transnistria and lived there until I was eight. Several months ago I went to visit for the first time since leaving 18 years ago. It's a miserable place to live. I also visited Kiev and Odessa (Ukraine) on the same trip, and am glad I did so before this violence broke out.
- kievins 13y ago
  Same thing happened in Georgia in 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)#The_South_Ossetia_War_and_since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)#The_South_Oss...
  - hepek 13y ago
    Same thing happened in Serbia in 1999. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo Only in this case it was NATO who invaded, and it is viewed quite differently from the western media then what parents have cited. The worst thing in world today is to become the rope on which the imperial forces tug to prove their strength.
    - _delirium 13y ago
ck2 13y ago
The scariest part of all of this is the 6000 mystery troops that showed up without any logos on their uniforms or carriers or tanks. They took over the border, airport, etc. without any identification, simply guns to insist "do as we say". They even blocked the coast guard from leaving their ports. Which means they had this kind of force all prepared. Can you imagine if US troops showed up somewhere in huge numbers with all identification hidden (I realize small "special forces" operate that way but not regular troops).
- brown9-2 13y ago
  I think the strange/comical part of this is that Russia thought that "we'll just take off our logos" was a good strategy for keeping a secret or saving face.
  - gk1 13y ago
    My guess is it's just to give them short-term deniability. By the time anyone proves who they are it'll be too late.
  - rangibaby 13y ago
    I think it was actually a brilliant FUD strategy to buy the Russians time and stop the West from intervening in a timely (from their perspective) fashion.
    - smsm42 13y ago
      As if somebody would be intervening. EU bureaucrats plan to hold "emergency meeting" on Monday - because occupation of a foreign country and potential war near their borders is not a reason to work on Sunday, you see. One can be sure nothing would come out of it on Monday either but empty "we are very worried" declarations.
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        > As if somebody would be intervening. EU bureaucrats plan to hold "emergency meeting" on Monday - because occupation of a foreign country and potential war near their borders is not a reason to work on Sunday, you see. Or because the actual work to develop options and brief on the facts prior to the emergency meeting of decision makers is going to happen through Sunday. Most of the work related to any meeting of decision-makers, even an emergency meeting, happens before the meeting.
glogla 13y ago
It's all going to be fine. Hitler stopped after getting Sudetenland too, right? Oh wait ... All of Easter Europe should watch this carefully. We all knew that Russia considers all east of Dresden to be their property. When they were leaving here after their invasion of 1968, they told us it's temporary. Now they are starting to reclaim it. All of it.
broflovsky 13y ago
Ugh, politics. Why bring into a "hacker news" site? Keep that garbage on Facebook and in reddit where it belongs.
- justinzollars 13y ago
  we need a politics flag and it needs to be removed. I agree.
- Elhana 13y ago
  "Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did." - http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
zeckalpha 13y ago
"The potential strike by the [Russian Federation] against [Ukraine], despite strong opposition from many countries and major political and religious leaders, including the pope, will result in more innocent victims and escalation, potentially spreading the conflict far beyond [Ukraine]’s borders. A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism. It could undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the [Chechnya] problem and the [Syrian] conflict and further destabilize the Middle East and North Africa. It could throw the entire system of international law and order out of balance." – Vladimir Putin, six months ago. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-cau...
- tzakrajs 13y ago
  I'm not so sure you can use brackets to replace any noun with another noun. It's clearly satire but some people might think this is a direct quote of Putin.
  - zeckalpha 13y ago
    At the time that op-ed came out, people did similar things with an even earlier op-ed of his: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/14/opinion/why-we-must-act.html?smid=tw-share http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/14/opinion/why-we-must-act.ht... Clearly, his position is whatever is convenient at any given time.
Mchl 13y ago
Russia has a long tradition of "protecting" "[...]The Soviet Government also cannot view with indifference the fact that the kindred Ukrainian and White Russian people, who live on Polish territory and who are at the mercy of fate, should be left defenceless. In these circumstances, the Soviet Government have directed the High Command of the Red Army to order troops to cross the frontier and to take under their protection the life and property of the population of Western Ukraine and Western White Russia." People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland
- Elhana 13y ago
  US has a long tradition of "protecting" as well. They were protecting Yugoslavia, then protected Iraq, Afganistan, Libya.. recently Syria. They are also looking to protect Iran and Ukraine now. Most of it without UN resolution, with the exception of Libya, where they interpreted "no fly zone" resolution as "just bomb everything that moves" (because Gaddafi tanks could fly I guess).
justinzollars 13y ago
The Russians have a lot more to lose in this situation than we do. The Russian Mediterranean fleet is based out of Sevastopol, hence their movements into the Crimean Peninsula. While I sympathize with the people of the Ukraine Obama wasn't smart to bet our credibility in a situation where the Russians could not back down.
Nux 13y ago
This is getting serious. Soon we'll find out how much human politics have progressed in the last ~50 years and what we have learned. Let's see how this crisis will get solved. Hint: armed forces, not a good sign already.
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wprl 13y ago
Blood for oil.
lmg643 13y ago
From what I gather, Obama has some of the same foreign policy advisors as Bush did. We are pursuing some backdoor strategy to get Ukraine to join the EU. The democratically elected president chose to ally with Russia instead, because Russia offered them more. We set up riots over there, and he flees the capital. The leader is declared to be deposed, and now a leader friendly to the west can take over. Russia can't stand for this - they have military bases in the country, and it is literally in their backyard. In terms of distance to moscow, it would be like taking over north carolina to washington DC. Question is - who is the aggressor in this situation, really? How is some unelected foreign policy team, fighting some bullshit game over expanding the EU, able to get us into this kind of mess? I thought Obama was supposed to be the anti-imperialist replacement for Bush? Or is each new president just a toady of the people who really run the show? I've got no stomach for war. We've done enough damage to ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. Please Obama, live up to what you were elected for - make that nobel peace prize count for something.
- visakanv 13y ago
  What exactly can Obama do, though? Anybody have any clear ideas?
  - cwaniak 13y ago
    This dude never knows what to do. That's the problem. With Bush as a President Putin just wouldn't dare.
    - afterburner 13y ago
      Do you remember this actual war Russia fought and won during Bush's tenure? Didn't think so. The US's forces were tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq during that time, Putin had even more leeway than he does now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war
      - cwaniak 13y ago
vxxzy 13y ago
Has anyone noticed an ramp of DDOS attacks on ISPs? In the DC Metro Area, we've had a bunch of issues with Windstream, Allied Telecom, Comcast, etc... All NTP based. Not to mention the inbound call issues with ATT in the Mid-Atlantic Market. Could this be a result of Current events with Russia?
inanov 13y ago
wow! everyone was just silent after the "revolution". no one said a single word about the right-wing armed forces. now the news are back in the front page of HN, cool... and meaningful in terms of timing, as one of those politics guys says in my country.
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dschiptsov 13y ago
It is too complicated to discuss here. First of all, the naval bases, gas pipeling infrastructure were build in Soviet times using resources of whole Soviet union. After its collapse in 90th everything became messy, but old strategic interests were respected. These events has very simple cause - too avoid any shift of control over strategic resources of former Soviet Union to pro-EU oligarchy and eventually EU capital which which Russia cannot compete. The other question is a moral one - does the interests of Russian oligarchs, controlling Gazprom, who "inherited" Soviet infrastructure should be reinforced by military operations? At least it is not an ethnic conflict, just conflict of interest.
aquadrop 13y ago
I hope that was just a political move in response to harsh words from the USA and no real sending troops will follow. Because that is very stupid thing to do for Russia. It makes me sick that nobody in the parliament voted against. And even though western media was using propaganda heavily as well as russian's did, there's no need to bend the truth with that kind of stupid move. It will only make the conflict bigger instead of helping it. Most people in the Crimea just wants all that shit(from both sides) to stop and live peacefully. I hope everything will end up fine. P.S. I'm Russian with some Ukrainian roots.
- danmaz74 13y ago
  Apparently, troops are already there though.
  - aquadrop 13y ago
    There's naval base in Sevastopol with permanent troops.
    - danmaz74 13y ago
      Yes, but from what I read Russian troops are deployed outside those bases, around the government palaces. I just hope this ends well (even if I couldn't define what "well" could mean here).
    - smsm42 13y ago
      The new troops are already there, which were airlifted in recently, not the ones previously present in Crimea.
danbruc 13y ago
Will we ever manage to act morally, ethically and rationally in situations like that? Or will the situation where suddenly everything escalates and we blow up the planet come first?
inanov 13y ago
> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics... I guess most stories about politics involves China, Russia, Iran, Syria, DPRK, USSR, Cuba, Venezuella...
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sidcool 13y ago
Images of the USSR invasion of Finland sprang up in my mind.
cwaniak 13y ago
When will the State Department, the White House and NATO issue a response on Facebook and Twitter? In the ultimate battle, Obama can out text, twitter and talk Putin. US wins and is the world power in nothing. We have the leadership we deserve.
sidcool 13y ago
We averted the Cuban missile crisis. This is a bit smaller than that. It's power play by Russia. Things will subside soon.

170 points by ytNumbers 13y ago

gondo 13y ago

live stream http://rt.com/on-air/embed/global/ http://rt.com/on-air/embed/global/

obiterdictum 13y ago
RT (of course) gives such a different view from Western media, it may as well be a completely different story. Right now, for example, it tells how "armed extremists sent from Kiev tried to seize government buildings in Crimea".
- osipov 13y ago
  truth is the first casualty at the time of war. hence you want to see propaganda from both sides.
- iaskwhy 13y ago
  And usually none of the versions is the correct one... That specific part might talk about some groups of people (not army related) trying to do what some other did in other cities of Ukraine. It's hard to know what's true and what's not.
vrepsys 13y ago
before watching this please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network) "..funded by the federal budget of Russia..", "Since its foundation in 2005, RT has been widely accused as being a mouthpiece of the Kremlin."

danmaz74 13y ago

It looks to me like it was all organized from the start: If using the economic pressure of gas prices wasn't enough to keep Ukraine in the Russian sphere of influence, they were ready to seize Crimea and maybe something more...

toyg 13y ago
Russia just cannot lose Crimea. It was silly for EU and especially US pols to think Ukraine could be snatched from Putin wholesale (and using neonazis, no less).
- danmaz74 13y ago
  From the word "snatched", it looks like in your opinion Ukraine was Putin's property... or was it protectorate?
  - toyg 13y ago
    Spheres of influence are real. If Panama fell under a Russian-friendly government likely to stop US vessels going through the strait, would the US government just sit there, "respecting the democratic rights of the citizens of Panama"?
    - danmaz74 13y ago
      First of all, the Ukrainian government wasn't bent on stopping Russian anything, AFAIK. Second, I morally condemned many acts from the USA, like the second war in Iraq based on evidently fake accusations of weapons of mass destruction. So, why shouldn't I condemn even more baseless acts from Russia?
      - toyg 13y ago
        "Baseless"? Crimea is populated by a majority of ethnic Russians, it's the most strategic base for the Russian Fleet to access the hugely-critical Mediterranean Sea, and it's a potentially key location to get gas from Russia to the European market without going through central Ukraine. In the last decade, when a Ukrainian government turned pro-US, they threatened to stop the all-important flow of gas; this is something Russia simply cannot allow to happen, it would destroy the country. The (elected) government of Ukraine has just been deposed by street protests directed by right-wing extremists, half of the country is in shambles and the newly established government's first act was to attempt to abolish a language law aimed at favouring Russian-speaking minorities (not exactly a priority, when the economy is tanking and half your police force has been disbanded). It's reasonable to believe that gas pipelines are threatened and that a revolutionary government might choose not to respect previous agreements, since there is a fairly recent precedent (2009, iirc); also, it's fair to expect that such a ragtag of right-wing ideologues will likely make the life of Crimean-Russians very uncomfortable very quickly. I personally don't see Putin's actions as "baseless" or irrational -- he's defending Russian interests that are clearly threatened. It's very simple and quite unsophisticated, but I don't see the moral scandal.

xixixao 13y ago

I am glad this has finally got to the top of HN. People should be aware of the fact that a part of sovereign country is being aggressively annexed by their neighbor. And there is virtually no opposition to Putin in Russia.

davidw 13y ago
> I am glad this has finally got to the top of HN Because once HN is aware of it, we'll... uhm... Send Putin some nasty Perl scripts? This, like almost all political / breaking news stories, is probably off topic for this site, given the guidelines: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." This will probably be the opening item on most TV news shows this evening. It's currently the lead article on www.cnn.com www.corriere.it www.bbc.com/news/ etc...
- coherentpony 13y ago
  I don't know why you're being downvoted. This is entirely accurate.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  I really wish "complaining about stuff being off-topic" was also against the guidelines. Oh wait, it is: "Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did."
  - davidw 13y ago
    If no one points it out, people won't learn. You folks can downvote all you want. I am more than willing to spend my "karma" to attempt to preserve this site from politics. Also, while we're being picky, "I wish it were", not "I wish it was".

mahoro 13y ago

Parliament approved (by 100% votes). Unbelievable.

TazeTSchnitzel 13y ago
My reaction as well. I suppose it must be true that United Russia are rigging all the polls.
- trycatch 13y ago
  That's normal for Russia, sadly. Yesterday there was a voting about mandatory registration of all web sites in Roskomnadzor (heavily controversial bill). 438 for, 0 against, 0 abstained. Russian democracy.

adamlj 13y ago

This could turn ugly really fast. If Russia attacks Ukraine the US and Britain would have to protect the borders of Ukraine, according to a treaty signed in 1994 [0]. If the US don't follow the treaty I guess we will know how much these treatys really are worth. [0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-Briti...

bananas 13y ago
Is there another source other than the daily mail i.e. one with an ounce of credibility?
- noir_lord 13y ago
  Good on you for not trusting the Daily Mail, it's not even a rag at this point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security...
  - bananas 13y ago
    Depends what you're wiping with it ;) Thanks for posting a more balanced and altogether less scary sounding article with references.
    - vixen99 13y ago
      Don't bother to back up you cliched attack on a popular tabloid newspaper. Much more fun to recycle the old epithets. What amuses me is that way hypercritical folk evidently read the Daily Mail (along with the other on a regular basis else how can they be so adamant concerning it's 'rag' characteristics? Seems to be a moveable feast on HN. Independent reports say that the DM has the largest online readership in the world at around 44 million. Disputable of course; remarkable that so few of these people (if any) appear have made a buck or two by suing the paper for telling all the lies it's supposed to peddle.

StephenFalken 13y ago

It would be interesting to discuss how Ukraine got into this kind of situation ([1] [2]) and what are the "natural" consequences of it. Somehow it feels we are not dealing with a single country anymore. [1] http://i.imgur.com/1iiXqHN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1iiXqHN.jpg [2] http://i.imgur.com/eNo56LZ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eNo56LZ.jpg

rangibaby 13y ago
Crimea is "Russian", it was granted from the Russian SSR to the Ukrainian SSR by Khrushchev in the 50s. It's interesting that the situation is playing out pretty much according to this blog post: http://cluborlov.blogspot.jp/2014/02/shock-over-ukraine.html http://cluborlov.blogspot.jp/2014/02/shock-over-ukraine.html "Most of them don't even know what it is they are protesting, but, in essence, they are protesting the very existence of their country, which is made up of two parts: Eastern Poland, which is Ukrainian-speaking and predominantly Catholic, and Western Russia, which is Russian-speaking and predominantly Orthodox. The “Russians” outnumber the “Ukrainians” two to one. The ultimate resolution to the crisis lies in partitioning the country. Nobody has the stomach to even talk about it—yet. But until that happens we will continue being subjected to this strange spectacle, where every single actor in Ukraine does everything possible to undermine the country's political system. Deep down, the Ukrainians don't want there to be a different government in Kiev—they don't want there to be a government in Kiev at all."
- ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
  Ukraine has never been controlled by the government of the Russian Federation.
- afterburner 13y ago
  I agree separation seems to be the elephant in the room, but ignoring the separate Ukrainian language is somewhat oversimplifying. If the language spoken in Kiev was Polish, then maybe you'd have a case about the Poland bit.
  - 13y ago

yardie 13y ago

It's a crazy situation all around. Russia has a military base in the Ukraine, in Crimea. If Cuba had a modern day revolution would the US not send in troops to Guantanamo? Would we be in the wrong for doing so? Even if the interim government was more US friendly?

aaron-lebo 13y ago
I tend to agree that the US would take such steps, but if the US decided to control larger portions of the country than just their bases (which is what is sounds like Russia is doing), that is a major problem and more than just protecting a military asset.
- rangibaby 13y ago
  Who would it be a major problem for if Cuba was ostensibly part of another state, yet had a population of 60% Americans and a newly anti-American government?
  - zeckalpha 13y ago
    The analogy doesn't hold, as Cuba's present government is nominally anti-US.
smsm42 13y ago
There's a difference between sending troops to Guantanamo Bay military base and sending troops to take control of Guantanamo province.

gk1 13y ago

See what happened in Ukraine's neighboring country, Moldova, 24 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Transnistria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Transnistria Moldova had a population of ethnic Russians that lived on the Eastern bank of the river D'niest'r. (Similar to the Crimean region in Ukraine.) Eventually a civil war broke out, and Russia stepped in to back the ethnically Russian region (sound familiar?). The end result was a stalemate. A ceasefire was declared in 1992, and the ethnically Russian region decided to spin off its own government. They call themselves Pre'd'niest'rovia (or Transnistria), and function as an entirely separate country from Moldova. That means different language (Russian, not Moldovan), currency, parliament, military, etc etc. Yet Moldova never accepted it as a sovereign country, and neither did the rest of the world. To this day, when you see Moldova on a map you only see one country where really there are two. What's happening in Ukraine today is almost a mirror image. I suspect it will result either in a similar two-country situation with one being unrecognized, or the Eastern half of Ukraine will form a new country. PS - I was born in Transnistria and lived there until I was eight. Several months ago I went to visit for the first time since leaving 18 years ago. It's a miserable place to live. I also visited Kiev and Odessa (Ukraine) on the same trip, and am glad I did so before this violence broke out.

kievins 13y ago
Same thing happened in Georgia in 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)#The_South_Ossetia_War_and_since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)#The_South_Oss...
- hepek 13y ago
  Same thing happened in Serbia in 1999. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo Only in this case it was NATO who invaded, and it is viewed quite differently from the western media then what parents have cited. The worst thing in world today is to become the rope on which the imperial forces tug to prove their strength.
  - _delirium 13y ago

ck2 13y ago

The scariest part of all of this is the 6000 mystery troops that showed up without any logos on their uniforms or carriers or tanks. They took over the border, airport, etc. without any identification, simply guns to insist "do as we say". They even blocked the coast guard from leaving their ports. Which means they had this kind of force all prepared. Can you imagine if US troops showed up somewhere in huge numbers with all identification hidden (I realize small "special forces" operate that way but not regular troops).

brown9-2 13y ago
I think the strange/comical part of this is that Russia thought that "we'll just take off our logos" was a good strategy for keeping a secret or saving face.
- gk1 13y ago
  My guess is it's just to give them short-term deniability. By the time anyone proves who they are it'll be too late.
- rangibaby 13y ago
  I think it was actually a brilliant FUD strategy to buy the Russians time and stop the West from intervening in a timely (from their perspective) fashion.
  - smsm42 13y ago
    As if somebody would be intervening. EU bureaucrats plan to hold "emergency meeting" on Monday - because occupation of a foreign country and potential war near their borders is not a reason to work on Sunday, you see. One can be sure nothing would come out of it on Monday either but empty "we are very worried" declarations.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > As if somebody would be intervening. EU bureaucrats plan to hold "emergency meeting" on Monday - because occupation of a foreign country and potential war near their borders is not a reason to work on Sunday, you see. Or because the actual work to develop options and brief on the facts prior to the emergency meeting of decision makers is going to happen through Sunday. Most of the work related to any meeting of decision-makers, even an emergency meeting, happens before the meeting.

glogla 13y ago

It's all going to be fine. Hitler stopped after getting Sudetenland too, right? Oh wait ... All of Easter Europe should watch this carefully. We all knew that Russia considers all east of Dresden to be their property. When they were leaving here after their invasion of 1968, they told us it's temporary. Now they are starting to reclaim it. All of it.

broflovsky 13y ago

Ugh, politics. Why bring into a "hacker news" site? Keep that garbage on Facebook and in reddit where it belongs.

justinzollars 13y ago
we need a politics flag and it needs to be removed. I agree.
Elhana 13y ago
"Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did." - http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

zeckalpha 13y ago

"The potential strike by the [Russian Federation] against [Ukraine], despite strong opposition from many countries and major political and religious leaders, including the pope, will result in more innocent victims and escalation, potentially spreading the conflict far beyond [Ukraine]’s borders. A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism. It could undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the [Chechnya] problem and the [Syrian] conflict and further destabilize the Middle East and North Africa. It could throw the entire system of international law and order out of balance." – Vladimir Putin, six months ago. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-cau...

tzakrajs 13y ago
I'm not so sure you can use brackets to replace any noun with another noun. It's clearly satire but some people might think this is a direct quote of Putin.
- zeckalpha 13y ago
  At the time that op-ed came out, people did similar things with an even earlier op-ed of his: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/14/opinion/why-we-must-act.html?smid=tw-share http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/14/opinion/why-we-must-act.ht... Clearly, his position is whatever is convenient at any given time.

Mchl 13y ago

Russia has a long tradition of "protecting" "[...]The Soviet Government also cannot view with indifference the fact that the kindred Ukrainian and White Russian people, who live on Polish territory and who are at the mercy of fate, should be left defenceless. In these circumstances, the Soviet Government have directed the High Command of the Red Army to order troops to cross the frontier and to take under their protection the life and property of the population of Western Ukraine and Western White Russia." People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

Elhana 13y ago
US has a long tradition of "protecting" as well. They were protecting Yugoslavia, then protected Iraq, Afganistan, Libya.. recently Syria. They are also looking to protect Iran and Ukraine now. Most of it without UN resolution, with the exception of Libya, where they interpreted "no fly zone" resolution as "just bomb everything that moves" (because Gaddafi tanks could fly I guess).

justinzollars 13y ago

The Russians have a lot more to lose in this situation than we do. The Russian Mediterranean fleet is based out of Sevastopol, hence their movements into the Crimean Peninsula. While I sympathize with the people of the Ukraine Obama wasn't smart to bet our credibility in a situation where the Russians could not back down.

Nux 13y ago

This is getting serious. Soon we'll find out how much human politics have progressed in the last ~50 years and what we have learned. Let's see how this crisis will get solved. Hint: armed forces, not a good sign already.

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wprl 13y ago

Blood for oil.

lmg643 13y ago

From what I gather, Obama has some of the same foreign policy advisors as Bush did. We are pursuing some backdoor strategy to get Ukraine to join the EU. The democratically elected president chose to ally with Russia instead, because Russia offered them more. We set up riots over there, and he flees the capital. The leader is declared to be deposed, and now a leader friendly to the west can take over. Russia can't stand for this - they have military bases in the country, and it is literally in their backyard. In terms of distance to moscow, it would be like taking over north carolina to washington DC. Question is - who is the aggressor in this situation, really? How is some unelected foreign policy team, fighting some bullshit game over expanding the EU, able to get us into this kind of mess? I thought Obama was supposed to be the anti-imperialist replacement for Bush? Or is each new president just a toady of the people who really run the show? I've got no stomach for war. We've done enough damage to ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. Please Obama, live up to what you were elected for - make that nobel peace prize count for something.

visakanv 13y ago
What exactly can Obama do, though? Anybody have any clear ideas?
- cwaniak 13y ago
  This dude never knows what to do. That's the problem. With Bush as a President Putin just wouldn't dare.
  - afterburner 13y ago
    Do you remember this actual war Russia fought and won during Bush's tenure? Didn't think so. The US's forces were tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq during that time, Putin had even more leeway than he does now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war
    - cwaniak 13y ago

vxxzy 13y ago

Has anyone noticed an ramp of DDOS attacks on ISPs? In the DC Metro Area, we've had a bunch of issues with Windstream, Allied Telecom, Comcast, etc... All NTP based. Not to mention the inbound call issues with ATT in the Mid-Atlantic Market. Could this be a result of Current events with Russia?

inanov 13y ago

wow! everyone was just silent after the "revolution". no one said a single word about the right-wing armed forces. now the news are back in the front page of HN, cool... and meaningful in terms of timing, as one of those politics guys says in my country.

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dschiptsov 13y ago

It is too complicated to discuss here. First of all, the naval bases, gas pipeling infrastructure were build in Soviet times using resources of whole Soviet union. After its collapse in 90th everything became messy, but old strategic interests were respected. These events has very simple cause - too avoid any shift of control over strategic resources of former Soviet Union to pro-EU oligarchy and eventually EU capital which which Russia cannot compete. The other question is a moral one - does the interests of Russian oligarchs, controlling Gazprom, who "inherited" Soviet infrastructure should be reinforced by military operations? At least it is not an ethnic conflict, just conflict of interest.

aquadrop 13y ago

I hope that was just a political move in response to harsh words from the USA and no real sending troops will follow. Because that is very stupid thing to do for Russia. It makes me sick that nobody in the parliament voted against. And even though western media was using propaganda heavily as well as russian's did, there's no need to bend the truth with that kind of stupid move. It will only make the conflict bigger instead of helping it. Most people in the Crimea just wants all that shit(from both sides) to stop and live peacefully. I hope everything will end up fine. P.S. I'm Russian with some Ukrainian roots.

danmaz74 13y ago
Apparently, troops are already there though.
- aquadrop 13y ago
  There's naval base in Sevastopol with permanent troops.
  - danmaz74 13y ago
    Yes, but from what I read Russian troops are deployed outside those bases, around the government palaces. I just hope this ends well (even if I couldn't define what "well" could mean here).
  - smsm42 13y ago
    The new troops are already there, which were airlifted in recently, not the ones previously present in Crimea.

danbruc 13y ago

Will we ever manage to act morally, ethically and rationally in situations like that? Or will the situation where suddenly everything escalates and we blow up the planet come first?

inanov 13y ago

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics... I guess most stories about politics involves China, Russia, Iran, Syria, DPRK, USSR, Cuba, Venezuella...

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sidcool 13y ago

Images of the USSR invasion of Finland sprang up in my mind.

cwaniak 13y ago

When will the State Department, the White House and NATO issue a response on Facebook and Twitter? In the ultimate battle, Obama can out text, twitter and talk Putin. US wins and is the world power in nothing. We have the leadership we deserve.

sidcool 13y ago

We averted the Cuban missile crisis. This is a bit smaller than that. It's power play by Russia. Things will subside soon.