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>The problem with teaching as a profession is that every single adult citizen of this country thinks that they know what teachers do. And they don't. So they pr

>The problem with teaching as a profession is that every single adult citizen of this country thinks that they know what teachers do. And they don't. So they prescribe solutions, and they develop public policy, and they editorialize, and they politicize. And they don't listen to those who do know. Those who could teach. The teachers. Sorry, I cant take this seriously. The teachers unions are one of the most politically powerful entities in the US. They can make a candidate, and they can break a candidate. They can pass and tank ballot measures...even ones completely unrelated to their jobs. They can protect drunkards and criminals from getting prosecuted, let alone fired. They are fine forcing their agenda down our throats, but they cant take a little pushback?

herbig 13y ago
I've watched House of Cards too, but I won't pretend that I understand the politics of teacher's unions. But I can still take seriously the notion that people assume they understand something just because they've observed it from the outside.
GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
mega-laffo @ all this.
pbhjpbhj 13y ago
>They are fine forcing their agenda down our throats // The agenda of ensuring children have access to life-enhancing educational opportunities? >They can make a candidate, and they can break a candidate. // You mean a political candidate? You really think that the combined voice of a group of teachers can do that against the weight of media conglomerates, other unions, rich lobbyists and other political groups? Any examples? Presumably under your assertion the education system in the USA is the one that the teaching unions have won by political action and the politicos and business people are looking on powerless to influence it?
- philwelch 13y ago
  Please. The teachers union is a union, they are looking out for the teachers, not the schoolchildren.
  - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
    Interesting. I'm in the UK, I've known quite a lot of teachers one way or another and observed the actions of teachers union workers and unionised teachers. Here - and limited to my anecdotal data - whilst the union supports the teachers it is supporting them in their primary function as teachers for children. The goal of the union is to enable the teachers to perform as professional teachers rather than merely supporting them as wage earners. Activities of the teachers unions I know of include - as you surmise - the basic functions of support for employees but much of the focus is on sharing best practice, lobbying for the best possible educational system, supporting teachers in other countries and similar. My overriding experience is that teachers are concerned with enabling children's education. Analogising, it's like the IoP (http://iop.org http://iop.org) is for physicists and supports them in their careers but it does that in order to advance physics, because that is the primary focus of physicists.
- PaulHoule 13y ago
  Well, I can say that in two weeks of homeschooling I got my son to write more than they did in five years. He was having trouble with bullies and the school did nothing about it. They pretty much gave up on teaching spelling completely. We found out that our school is a "magnet school" for behaviorally disturbed "special" kids from other districts so kids in the rich school and kids in the poor school where communities complain a lot get to enjoy a safer environment because the rural school gets all the psychotic kids. I gave up on them when the superintendent gave a "town hall" where he told the mother of a "special" kid that he was a partner in his education and he told me I should just butt out because he was the expert and there's a new paradigm and homework is obsolete and because I don't have a phone number to call to get Albany breathing down his neck. F the teacher's unions.
  - king_jester 13y ago
    The problems you experienced go beyond teachers unions. Dumping "problem" kids into one school is a recipe for disaster and communities are not served by that kind of thing at all (except those that dumped off students, although I would argue those communities aren't fixing their underlying problems). Administrator heavy, top down approaches that override community and teacher autonomy are a bad thing in general, and the obsession with testing over standard lessons and homework is a huge problem with the way the public education system is run. Ultimately teachers as a professional class deserve a union. We see in other places and countries that the unions do not serve as an impediment to a quality public education, so we have to ask ourselves what is really going on with current systems and unions that make the situation so shitty (esp. in New York state).
    - PaulHoule 13y ago
      I'm not saying that teachers shouldn't have a union, but from my perspective it is part of the problem rather than the solution more often than not. For instance, they opened a charter school in our district which seems to be an honest effort to provide a safe (bullying free) environment for the high school and there have been two people associated with the union who have just been consistently hateful trying to shut it down.
- cglace 13y ago
  > The agenda of ensuring children have access to life-enhancing educational opportunities? Did you steal this from one of their pamphlets? Are you implying that teachers unions only agenda is to help students and not self preservation?
- ameister14 13y ago
  Teachers unions influence local politics and Democratic Party primaries very heavily. Yes, the combined voice of a group of teachers can make a significant difference. Why? Well, they're affiliated with other unions, to start. Further, as most are state employees, their ability to strike impacts public opinion regarding state government. They've also got a lot of power because they are with your kids 6-7 hours a day. They understand how political they need to be to keep the status quo, and are (at least in my and everyone else I know's experience) more focused on supporting the existing system for long term members than creating a better system for learning.
mathattack 13y ago
Indeed. Look at New York. They're closing down some of the best performing charter schools in the state. http://nypost.com/2014/02/27/de-blasio-administration-halts-expansion-of-success-academy-charter-schools/ http://nypost.com/2014/02/27/de-blasio-administration-halts-...

herbig 13y ago

I've watched House of Cards too, but I won't pretend that I understand the politics of teacher's unions. But I can still take seriously the notion that people assume they understand something just because they've observed it from the outside.

GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago

mega-laffo @ all this.

pbhjpbhj 13y ago

>They are fine forcing their agenda down our throats // The agenda of ensuring children have access to life-enhancing educational opportunities? >They can make a candidate, and they can break a candidate. // You mean a political candidate? You really think that the combined voice of a group of teachers can do that against the weight of media conglomerates, other unions, rich lobbyists and other political groups? Any examples? Presumably under your assertion the education system in the USA is the one that the teaching unions have won by political action and the politicos and business people are looking on powerless to influence it?

philwelch 13y ago
Please. The teachers union is a union, they are looking out for the teachers, not the schoolchildren.
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago
  Interesting. I'm in the UK, I've known quite a lot of teachers one way or another and observed the actions of teachers union workers and unionised teachers. Here - and limited to my anecdotal data - whilst the union supports the teachers it is supporting them in their primary function as teachers for children. The goal of the union is to enable the teachers to perform as professional teachers rather than merely supporting them as wage earners. Activities of the teachers unions I know of include - as you surmise - the basic functions of support for employees but much of the focus is on sharing best practice, lobbying for the best possible educational system, supporting teachers in other countries and similar. My overriding experience is that teachers are concerned with enabling children's education. Analogising, it's like the IoP (http://iop.org http://iop.org) is for physicists and supports them in their careers but it does that in order to advance physics, because that is the primary focus of physicists.
PaulHoule 13y ago
Well, I can say that in two weeks of homeschooling I got my son to write more than they did in five years. He was having trouble with bullies and the school did nothing about it. They pretty much gave up on teaching spelling completely. We found out that our school is a "magnet school" for behaviorally disturbed "special" kids from other districts so kids in the rich school and kids in the poor school where communities complain a lot get to enjoy a safer environment because the rural school gets all the psychotic kids. I gave up on them when the superintendent gave a "town hall" where he told the mother of a "special" kid that he was a partner in his education and he told me I should just butt out because he was the expert and there's a new paradigm and homework is obsolete and because I don't have a phone number to call to get Albany breathing down his neck. F the teacher's unions.
- king_jester 13y ago
  The problems you experienced go beyond teachers unions. Dumping "problem" kids into one school is a recipe for disaster and communities are not served by that kind of thing at all (except those that dumped off students, although I would argue those communities aren't fixing their underlying problems). Administrator heavy, top down approaches that override community and teacher autonomy are a bad thing in general, and the obsession with testing over standard lessons and homework is a huge problem with the way the public education system is run. Ultimately teachers as a professional class deserve a union. We see in other places and countries that the unions do not serve as an impediment to a quality public education, so we have to ask ourselves what is really going on with current systems and unions that make the situation so shitty (esp. in New York state).
  - PaulHoule 13y ago
    I'm not saying that teachers shouldn't have a union, but from my perspective it is part of the problem rather than the solution more often than not. For instance, they opened a charter school in our district which seems to be an honest effort to provide a safe (bullying free) environment for the high school and there have been two people associated with the union who have just been consistently hateful trying to shut it down.
cglace 13y ago
> The agenda of ensuring children have access to life-enhancing educational opportunities? Did you steal this from one of their pamphlets? Are you implying that teachers unions only agenda is to help students and not self preservation?
ameister14 13y ago
Teachers unions influence local politics and Democratic Party primaries very heavily. Yes, the combined voice of a group of teachers can make a significant difference. Why? Well, they're affiliated with other unions, to start. Further, as most are state employees, their ability to strike impacts public opinion regarding state government. They've also got a lot of power because they are with your kids 6-7 hours a day. They understand how political they need to be to keep the status quo, and are (at least in my and everyone else I know's experience) more focused on supporting the existing system for long term members than creating a better system for learning.

mathattack 13y ago

Indeed. Look at New York. They're closing down some of the best performing charter schools in the state. http://nypost.com/2014/02/27/de-blasio-administration-halts-expansion-of-success-academy-charter-schools/ http://nypost.com/2014/02/27/de-blasio-administration-halts-...