7 ms·

And here I thought the reason the Segway never caught on was because it was prohibitively expensive to own and didn't fulfill any real need.

by jknupp 17y ago

weaksauce 17y ago
Not to mention that you look like a tool and they are banned from the sidewalks of SF.
avinashv 17y ago
Came here to say this, with just one addition: I think there is a select group of people for whom the Segway has a legitimate use--I'm thinking along the lines of people who have trouble walking long distances (say, more than 5-10 minutes). I've seen a lot of people using the Segway for this purpose. But as a normal means of transportation? No. Price, need, rules for usage etc. are pretty big hindrances for purchase.
- Afton 17y ago
  Actually, electric wheelchairs are superior for this purpose. People with mobility issues generally aren't going to want to stand for the 5-10 minutes. I've never ridden one, but if it requires core strength at all to lean-steer, then that rules it out for most people with disabilities.
- ShabbyDoo 17y ago
  IIRC, Kamen was contractually prohibited from marketing the Segway as a health aid after selling the wheelchair with similar technology to J&J. One Segway dealer told me that a 3rd party retrofits them with seats for use by those who can't stand/walk for long periods but don't really need a wheelchair. Those who say, "Well, you could use a bike, wheelchair, etc." don't understand the use case. A person who can't walk long distances might use it in the mall to go from store to store. Then, when he sees something he wanted to look at, he could get off and browse around for a few minutes. It's the walk from the parking lot to the shoe section at WalMart that gets them -- it's not the few minutes spent perusing the boots.
brk 17y ago
What is your definition of "caught on"? They're doing about $50MM/yr in business, so there is a market. The problem with Segway, IMHO, is that the initial hype was completely misdirected and Dean Kamen drinks far too much of his own Kool-Aid. Segway has made a good inroads in the police and security market, as well as the tourism markets. For what it does best, it's really not that prohibitive, but for consumer transportation, there is less ROI in most cases.
- DannoHung 17y ago
  I wonder what would Segway's market be like if they could make a 20mph version that was safe to drive on city streets.
  - mbrubeck 17y ago
    For the price of a segway you can get a motorcycle or a scooter or a moped or an electric bike, and drive it on city streets. Yet most Americans still drive cars. What benefits does a turbocharged Segway offer that these other options don't?
    - brk 17y ago
      The i2 model can fit through a doorway. It can be picked up and moved by a reasonably fit person. It can be used indoors or out, and with some accessories can carry a small amount of cargo. The general public bias against Segways is kind of understandable. Most people aren't capable of thinking outside the box. I'm always a little surprised when the hacker/entrepreneur community seems to jump on that bandwagon though. Even moreso today when so many people claim to be "green" advocates and will proclaim that we need to explore other modes of transportation, yet bash anything that doesn't have 4 tires and a steering wheel.
      - mbrubeck 17y ago
        A bicycle can fit through a doorway, be picked up and moved, and carry a quite large amount of cargo. For the price of a Segway it could be equipped with a motor of similar speed and efficiency, or it can be run on human power. Unlike the Segway, the bicycle can go in the street and on dirt trails, has much greater maximum speed and range, and is cheap and easy to repair. Sure, the Segway has advantages too - but when people suggest that it should go at 25mph in city streets, it's worth considering whether the Segway's unique properties actually contribute anything. Different tools are better for different jobs. I'm all in favor of thinking outside the box, but things like cargo bicycles are more practical and interesting (though less sexy and high-tech) for my own city transportation needs: http://www.xtracycle.com/cargo-utility-bicycles.html http://www.xtracycle.com/cargo-utility-bicycles.html
pg 17y ago
That's why I wrote "There are several reasons why, but one is that people don't want to be seen riding them." instead of "The reason is that people don't want to be seen riding them."
- bkovitz 17y ago
  "People on Segways look smug" is a good observation, but it's a strange and confusing emphasis in an essay titled "The Trouble with the Segway".
- diego 17y ago
  How do you know that it's a reason and not a consequence?
- jknupp 17y ago
  True, but you also wrote "So there may be a way to capture more of the market Segway hoped to reach [by redesigning it to make the operator look more active]". In all honesty, for how many people do you think "how I look while riding it" is the single factor stopping them from buying a Segway? Your statement implies that this is not the vanishingly small number of people I would expect it to be.
  - Retric 17y ago
    From a utility standpoint a Segway's would be perfect for traveling around a Zoo / Disneyland. Rent them for ~30$ a day and it could be vary popular and profitable. However, there seems to be little gain from owning one because they have the same downsides of a bike. Plus, you need to charge them, and you need to more concerned with them getting stolen. So, the consumer Segway market is basically an expensive vanity item. But, few people actually want to be seen on them due to look and feel issues.
    - mrtron 17y ago
      No way. The majority of people going to zoos/disneyland are families. What are you going to do with your 5, 3 and 1 year old children?
alexsolo 17y ago
I think it ultimately comes down to price. When the Segway first came out, it was available for pre-order on Amazon for $10000! This is an extremely high price, which is orders of magnitude higher than the alternatives: bicycles, motorized bicycles and scooters, motorized skateboards, etc. The high price instantly relegated the product into a niche. At that price, the Segway is only viable for businesses (consumers can't afford it) that can really justify the need for the product. Imagine for a second that the first Segway came out at a price of $1000, and that the price gradually dropped to $400 - $500. I think a good number of early adopters would have bought the first dorky-looking version. These people would have used the Segway, and some would have complained about the look. Some people would have started customizing it and making it look cooler, go faster, attach jets to it, etc. Gradually, the manufacturer would have listened to the customers, and would have started making many versions of the product, some for kids, others for teens, adults, etc. They would have created off-road extreme versions of it and one-wheel versions of it. Basically, I believe that there is a healthy demand for getting around town quickly, and that if the price of the Segway was right, the mass market would adopt it. Mass market adoption would then quickly iron out the dorkyness of the Segway though many iterations of the product.
vaksel 17y ago
It's not prohibitively expensive, most people can afford the $5.5K price tag. It's just that for 1/10th of the price, you can buy a bicycle that does the same exact job.
trominos 17y ago
I'm not sure. Americans in the middle class and above aren't strangers to spending substantial amounts of money on stuff that they don't need. Segways are useful enough that I could imagine them gaining a substantial market share if it were fashionable to use one. Now, that doesn't mean that they would catch on if they weren't dorky. But even at the outrageous price that they were marketed at, I think it's conceivable that they could -- I think they'd have similar chances to other potential fashions. So I actually think I agree with PG more than you. Price and insubstantial benefit are both major problems with the Segway (and frankly I'm being a little devil's advocate here, the price was ridiculous -- but cut it in half or so and I think it stops being prohibitive), but the aspect of Segway that made it impossible for the thing to succeed was its dorkiness.

And here I thought the reason the Segway never caught on was because it was prohibitively expensive to own and didn't fulfill any real need.

by jknupp 17y ago

And here I thought the reason the Segway never caught on was because it was prohibitively expensive to own and didn't fulfill any real need.

weaksauce 17y ago

Not to mention that you look like a tool and they are banned from the sidewalks of SF.

avinashv 17y ago

Came here to say this, with just one addition: I think there is a select group of people for whom the Segway has a legitimate use--I'm thinking along the lines of people who have trouble walking long distances (say, more than 5-10 minutes). I've seen a lot of people using the Segway for this purpose. But as a normal means of transportation? No. Price, need, rules for usage etc. are pretty big hindrances for purchase.

Afton 17y ago
Actually, electric wheelchairs are superior for this purpose. People with mobility issues generally aren't going to want to stand for the 5-10 minutes. I've never ridden one, but if it requires core strength at all to lean-steer, then that rules it out for most people with disabilities.
ShabbyDoo 17y ago
IIRC, Kamen was contractually prohibited from marketing the Segway as a health aid after selling the wheelchair with similar technology to J&J. One Segway dealer told me that a 3rd party retrofits them with seats for use by those who can't stand/walk for long periods but don't really need a wheelchair. Those who say, "Well, you could use a bike, wheelchair, etc." don't understand the use case. A person who can't walk long distances might use it in the mall to go from store to store. Then, when he sees something he wanted to look at, he could get off and browse around for a few minutes. It's the walk from the parking lot to the shoe section at WalMart that gets them -- it's not the few minutes spent perusing the boots.

brk 17y ago

What is your definition of "caught on"? They're doing about $50MM/yr in business, so there is a market. The problem with Segway, IMHO, is that the initial hype was completely misdirected and Dean Kamen drinks far too much of his own Kool-Aid. Segway has made a good inroads in the police and security market, as well as the tourism markets. For what it does best, it's really not that prohibitive, but for consumer transportation, there is less ROI in most cases.

DannoHung 17y ago
I wonder what would Segway's market be like if they could make a 20mph version that was safe to drive on city streets.
- mbrubeck 17y ago
  For the price of a segway you can get a motorcycle or a scooter or a moped or an electric bike, and drive it on city streets. Yet most Americans still drive cars. What benefits does a turbocharged Segway offer that these other options don't?
  - brk 17y ago
    The i2 model can fit through a doorway. It can be picked up and moved by a reasonably fit person. It can be used indoors or out, and with some accessories can carry a small amount of cargo. The general public bias against Segways is kind of understandable. Most people aren't capable of thinking outside the box. I'm always a little surprised when the hacker/entrepreneur community seems to jump on that bandwagon though. Even moreso today when so many people claim to be "green" advocates and will proclaim that we need to explore other modes of transportation, yet bash anything that doesn't have 4 tires and a steering wheel.
    - mbrubeck 17y ago
      A bicycle can fit through a doorway, be picked up and moved, and carry a quite large amount of cargo. For the price of a Segway it could be equipped with a motor of similar speed and efficiency, or it can be run on human power. Unlike the Segway, the bicycle can go in the street and on dirt trails, has much greater maximum speed and range, and is cheap and easy to repair. Sure, the Segway has advantages too - but when people suggest that it should go at 25mph in city streets, it's worth considering whether the Segway's unique properties actually contribute anything. Different tools are better for different jobs. I'm all in favor of thinking outside the box, but things like cargo bicycles are more practical and interesting (though less sexy and high-tech) for my own city transportation needs: http://www.xtracycle.com/cargo-utility-bicycles.html http://www.xtracycle.com/cargo-utility-bicycles.html

pg 17y ago

That's why I wrote "There are several reasons why, but one is that people don't want to be seen riding them." instead of "The reason is that people don't want to be seen riding them."

bkovitz 17y ago
"People on Segways look smug" is a good observation, but it's a strange and confusing emphasis in an essay titled "The Trouble with the Segway".
diego 17y ago
How do you know that it's a reason and not a consequence?
jknupp 17y ago
True, but you also wrote "So there may be a way to capture more of the market Segway hoped to reach [by redesigning it to make the operator look more active]". In all honesty, for how many people do you think "how I look while riding it" is the single factor stopping them from buying a Segway? Your statement implies that this is not the vanishingly small number of people I would expect it to be.
- Retric 17y ago
  From a utility standpoint a Segway's would be perfect for traveling around a Zoo / Disneyland. Rent them for ~30$ a day and it could be vary popular and profitable. However, there seems to be little gain from owning one because they have the same downsides of a bike. Plus, you need to charge them, and you need to more concerned with them getting stolen. So, the consumer Segway market is basically an expensive vanity item. But, few people actually want to be seen on them due to look and feel issues.
  - mrtron 17y ago
    No way. The majority of people going to zoos/disneyland are families. What are you going to do with your 5, 3 and 1 year old children?

alexsolo 17y ago

I think it ultimately comes down to price. When the Segway first came out, it was available for pre-order on Amazon for $10000! This is an extremely high price, which is orders of magnitude higher than the alternatives: bicycles, motorized bicycles and scooters, motorized skateboards, etc. The high price instantly relegated the product into a niche. At that price, the Segway is only viable for businesses (consumers can't afford it) that can really justify the need for the product. Imagine for a second that the first Segway came out at a price of $1000, and that the price gradually dropped to $400 - $500. I think a good number of early adopters would have bought the first dorky-looking version. These people would have used the Segway, and some would have complained about the look. Some people would have started customizing it and making it look cooler, go faster, attach jets to it, etc. Gradually, the manufacturer would have listened to the customers, and would have started making many versions of the product, some for kids, others for teens, adults, etc. They would have created off-road extreme versions of it and one-wheel versions of it. Basically, I believe that there is a healthy demand for getting around town quickly, and that if the price of the Segway was right, the mass market would adopt it. Mass market adoption would then quickly iron out the dorkyness of the Segway though many iterations of the product.

vaksel 17y ago

It's not prohibitively expensive, most people can afford the $5.5K price tag. It's just that for 1/10th of the price, you can buy a bicycle that does the same exact job.

trominos 17y ago

I'm not sure. Americans in the middle class and above aren't strangers to spending substantial amounts of money on stuff that they don't need. Segways are useful enough that I could imagine them gaining a substantial market share if it were fashionable to use one. Now, that doesn't mean that they would catch on if they weren't dorky. But even at the outrageous price that they were marketed at, I think it's conceivable that they could -- I think they'd have similar chances to other potential fashions. So I actually think I agree with PG more than you. Price and insubstantial benefit are both major problems with the Segway (and frankly I'm being a little devil's advocate here, the price was ridiculous -- but cut it in half or so and I think it stops being prohibitive), but the aspect of Segway that made it impossible for the thing to succeed was its dorkiness.