15 ms·

Dear first world dev, I am going to live your nightmare

218 points by channikhabra 13y ago

gexla 13y ago
> I can do it myself sitting at home, I’ve done a couple projects, but it was not fun. No you can't, obviously. You just said it. For one, you don't enjoy it. What you need to learn is that straight programming isn't a valuable skill by itself. You already know this because you wrote an article about it. You need to be able to tie your programming skills with other skills such as selling yourself as the person to get the job done. Once you get the job, you need to be able to ship it. There are programming skills that are valuable in isolation. If you are a world expert on a certain domain which lacks talent, then that's valuable. But that's not really isolation, that's tying your programming skills with a certain specialty. Take a look at the model you are working under. There is a whole spectrum of jobs from good to crap. On Odesk, there are a sprinkling of good and a lot of crap. I imagine the company employing you is saying yes to every job that comes their way. They probably don't get good jobs, so it's all crap. They get crap jobs which pay crap and of course you are going to get a small slice of a crap pie. Why take a job just because it's there? Okay, you laid out a bunch of reasons but you still hate it. I would probably hate working on crap jobs also. People worked for Steve Jobs because the guy was... well... Steve Jobs. Why are you working for people who are trying to compete on the worst model in web development, the race to the bottom in pricing? If you know good developers, then maybe you could start your own development shop and get those developers to work for you. If you hate the work but you can get jobs, then maybe do the selling and have the other developers do the work. Or maybe you could come up with your own projects and monetize them. You just have to hustle, just like everyone else does. You can't just write code and expect the world to come to you. Get out there and make things happen. Edit: In other words, quit whining. ;) Edit: Edit: I could write a book on this subject. The above is just an attempt at an off the cuff capture. There are a ton of threads on HN which are hugely valuable on bringing the bacon as a developer. Just look around, it's more productive than ranting about your situation. Clearly the person you are working for is trying to take a "this is how everything is done here" approach to running a dev shop and hiring developers. It's the same in the Philippines. Everyone works 10 hour days, 6 days a week and within a certain band of salary. I suppose the U.S. is like that to some degree. We have the 9 to 5 and 40 hour weeks. Disruption in your case would be pretty easy. If the company has decent employees, then you could scoop them all up.
- rjzzleep 13y ago
  it doesn't really matter if the job is good or crap. the guy that hires you already thinks you're crap, and why would you care about some job they outsource to you because they don't even want to pay minimum wage? you don't think that value comes across exactly that way? that said indians have a major cultural problem. they're way too nice, and they're also way too enduring, and they find other ways to vent that. when i was in the US they were putting their shit on the indians, because they knew that since they really wanted to stay in the US they would endure all the shit, and not talk back. some of these people got dumped on their 6th year, because that's when the employer has to decide on whether they sponsor a green card or just get a new one. odesk encourages crap, because the people that come there generally don't think hey i'll get an awesome guy on there who i can't find in my environment. they think hey my project is super easy anyway. i'll get a cheap dude to build exactly what i want. don't get me wrong i know some really good developers, and employers on odesk(well truth be told it's just 1 of either). but they're there no doubt. what disgusted me the most was that the guy i was working with (who used odesk to get cheap developers) was thinking that he was doing them a favor. he thought of himself of some kind of savior, because he was helping indians so much.
  - eklavya 13y ago
    Well the culture is really really diverse to cast into a single type. You have to be extra nice AND enduring when there are 100s more like you wanting the same job. The only way out of it is to make yourself better so the competition isn't as fierce or just bend over and take it all in.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    >> that said indians have a major cultural problem. they're way too nice, and they're also way too enduring, and they find other ways to vent that. When I've dealt with teams in India (rather than Indian folk in western nations) I've had problems with this. It's not niceness, it's being non-confrontational. To excess. When you ask if they understand (so you could offer help or training on a technical question, for example) it's "yes, certainly". And then a week later you get the email saying no progress has been made because they don't understand something. It's irritating.
aviraldg 13y ago
I'm not sure why OP thinks this is going to be a good idea. The kind of projects he'll get to work on will almost always be the usual Odesk "clone XYZ in $X" tripe. Also, the sort of company he's talking about is unlikely to have senior developers experienced enough to mentor him (from what I know about these companies.) Working on an open source project instead would be much more constructive and would get him engaged with experienced developers who could teach him a thing or two. If he's still a student (and it looks like he is) GSoC might be a great way to get started with this. Also, I would avoid Odesk like the plague. Build up a portfolio (open source works as well) and connect with people on HN.
- gallamine 13y ago
  OP's problem was discipline. I don't he doesn't realize that working on OSS would be better, but he said he can't seem to do that. Frankly it seems like OP is more depressed than anything - alone and isolated in a strange place.
- GvS 13y ago
  I did some projects from both oDesk and HN. They were quite similar. oDesk projects I've chosen were more interesting but quite short and HN jobs were longer but not so great as you would expect from HN.
  - eru 13y ago
    What's HN in this context?
    - GvS 13y ago
      Hacker news monthly job topics.
- mkaziz 13y ago
  How do you go about building a portfolio? Do you do free/cheap work for people, or do you just make things you think people might like or be impressed by?
- 13y ago
negamax 13y ago
I am from India. And worked for over a year on oDesk. I think it's painting the whole industry with a very wide brush. Personally know people in Delhi/Mumbai making very comfortable salary.
- deleted 13y ago
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ctdonath 13y ago
I will be working 48 hours a week (excluding break; mon-sat 10 am to 7 pm) for less than $100 per month. Move.
- ashray 13y ago
  I just want to clarify that this is nowhere close to the average salary a dev earns in India (a decent developer can make anywhere between $400/mo to $3000/mo). I'm not sure what company he's working for but it sounds like a real sweatshop. You can find better gigs even in Chandigarh (it's not known for IT that much..), but for that - you probably need to be better at what you do, or maybe you need to learn how to sell yourself better.
  - jezclaremurugan 13y ago
    Exactly, and in India $2000 a month goes a long way.
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SuddsMcDuff 13y ago
Meanwhile, somewhere in Western Europe, someone gets made redundant.
- lgieron 13y ago
  Not necessarily, some of the projects outsourced at third world rates only exist because the rates are so low. For example, I have a friend who toyed with the idea of making money in the app store - it costed him only about $100 to have a simple app done by an Indian developer, which was acceptable for him; I'm pretty sure having to spend 5-10x more for a western developer would be too much of a risk for him. As for the cases where people in the west are actually made redundant - the west has ruthlessly exploited its colonies for a couple centuries and now, thanks to free trade, it is allowing for some balancing in the global economy, which means both poor countries getting richer and some people in rich countries being worse off. I'd say that in the grand scale of things it's justice, and long overdue.
  - SuddsMcDuff 13y ago
    I find myself quite conflicted as I agree with everything you say, but I am also one of the unfortunate people who's career is suffering due to rampant off-shoring.
    - lgieron 13y ago
      I agree, irregardless of the big picture, that is always sad on an individual level. BTW I think the way to at least partially combat outsourcing in rich countries is through agreeing to work for lower wages (which would still be higher than national average, I'm not advocating becoming working poor). Arguably, that's what's already happening, and that's one of the reasons why programmers don't earn nearly as much as some of the other professionals.
    - eru 13y ago
      I assume you are in computing / programming? There are loads of jobs available at good salaries world wide. So don't worry about losing your current one.
gkcgautam 13y ago
Charanjit, I'm from Chandigarh too. I can completely understand what you are feeling since I'm completely aware of the situation. Luckily I was doing quite well myself while I graduated (last year) and didn't need to work for any such company. I'm working in a startup now where our major focus is on doing quality work using modern tech. We deal with clients directly and not through websites like oDesk. Great to see that you have worked with backbone etc. Would you like to catchup some time for tech discussion? I have few friends who do that regurlay at weekends. Mail me at gkcgautam@gmail.com :)
diydsp 13y ago
> Things are very bad in my city. There is no any kind of active community of computer enthusiasts; be it some Linux Users Group or something similar. Start one! Seriously- no jive. Be that change that you want. It may be that your affinity is not to be a developer--- you may actually be an organizer of people! Try it! You can do it for free! Make announcements! Start by meeting once every two weeks in the evening and teach people everything you know! You will make connections! You will be tapped to work with others. You will grow along with those around you. The people you help will see your strengths and send better opportunities your way. Trust me, you will see. Seriously, start it up. It is within you to do it and it is free and fun! Find a library or a park or someone's living room or a restaurant. Even if it's just one computer, gather a flock.
hueheu 13y ago
Is HN a blog plateform?
- WhitneyLand 13y ago
  No but it is a community where sometimes we share our relevant experiences. It's sometimes a lesson to be learned, sometimes cathartic, and sometimes an opportunity to see our humanity.
WhitneyLand 13y ago
Just don't give up man - keep pushing to expand your comfort level. Discipline is something that can be learned, that's why they teach it so much in the military. Difference here is you have to force yourself through the pain once you want it bad enough. It will be worth it.
senthilnayagam 13y ago
Many Indians get exposed to computers at a later age, often not good at computer and programming concepts, their exposure is low. Think of this initial job as internship, but after a year when they know their stuff and can clear technical interviews and with better communications skills the pay package increases significantly. when people switch to more reputed companies in earlier years the hikes they get is between 50-100% . for first 5-7 years the hike is abut 30% by the time these people will settle in large indian or multinational companies.
yummyfajitas 13y ago
Bro, send me an email. I might be able to help you out, provided you stop flaking. If you are able to get shit done, I might be able to exploit you in a more pleasant and productive manner than some odesk bodyshop for similar wages - no bond and no hard feelings when you quit for something better in 2 months. Do you have a github or other code portfolio? (If not, build one.) And get the heck out of Chandigarh. Mumbai, Pune, Bangalore, pick one. There are Hackathons here in Pune and companies who will pay you well over 6000rs/month provided you actually get shit done.
- izolate 13y ago
  > And get the heck out of Chandigarh. So sad! I was rooting for OP for being a techie in Chandi. I was born in Chandigarh and although I emigrated within a few years of being born, I'll always consider that city a home of mine. I'd really like to do something to support its fledgling tech scene. I've committed myself to the idea of moving to Chandigarh to bootstrap my startup when I decide to go at it alone. I would love for OP to stay in Chandigarh, but I honestly can't say that's a sensible move at this point in time.
  - mands 13y ago
    I was thinking of moving back to Punjab to work on my startup for a bit - with Chandigarh at the top of my list of places to set up. Is the tech scene really that bad out there or has the OP just been unlucky?
    - heaven00 13y ago
      Hi, I can confirm that, I had a similar experience. 7k training and 15k when hired and there were few who were not even paid any stipend and was under training for more then 6 months. But, there is always a "but". I have met a few good developers too with whom I enjoyed my time working before leaving the job.
      - mands 13y ago
        Hi. Hmm - good to know, thanks for the insider view.
doktrin 13y ago
That's thoroughly depressing. What does $100 a month translate to in terms of cost of living?
- RealGeek 13y ago
  Rent for a studio apartment in his city is around $200, it is $300 to $500 in bigger cities like Delhi and Mumbai.
rk0567 13y ago
I think it's a pessimistic approach to discipline. You could just learn to meditate [0]. [0] : http://www.siyli.org/take-the-course/siy-curriculum/ http://www.siyli.org/take-the-course/siy-curriculum/ (a free course on meditation)
- mkaziz 13y ago
  How would that help?
  - rk0567 13y ago
    Better understanding of self (emotional/motivational factors). Loneliness would turn into solitudeness. Better attention span.
    - gkcgautam 13y ago
      Please stop with the trolling if you can't actually understand the problem. Meditation doesn't solve every problem in life.
      - rk0567 13y ago
        It doesn't, it's not a silver bullet but it can help a lot. And my answer was based on my experience (with some variables similar to OP such as working alone on multiple web projects (unfinished), INTP/introvert etc). BTW, based on the fact that your account is ~few hours old, I think you might be the one trolling[1] (or meta-trolling, more accurately) here :-) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
      - purerandomness 13y ago
        OP suffers from an inability to focus on a task over long periods of time. This is exactly the type of problem meditation adresses fairly well. You might be interested in this Google "Tech Talk" on Mindfulness Meditation by Jon Kobat-Zinn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc
shadeless 13y ago
I'm in the same situation as OP, only the location is different (East Europe). I've been at it for 5 months already but I'm on verge of quitting every week since I started. The only thing that stops me from doing it is fear of not being able to make similar amount of money monthly to able to pay bills and rent. I've been trying to work on something on the side but the job leaves me exhausted and the only thing I can do in the evenings and weekends is sleep. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone - we use terrible tech(php and ftp), I haven't learned anything new in months, only taught my (senior) coworkers some tips to work even faster. I'd write more about it but my break is over.
- eru 13y ago
  Why do you work so hard? Slack off a bit more, and have more energy left over for your projects that will make you grow. What do you have to lose?
RankingMember 13y ago
Godspeed, I can understand your desire for the presence of others of like mind in order to be in the right frame of mind to work. Just be aware that you could do the same thing in the US (or anywhere else, really) and make exponentially more money.
- eru 13y ago
  He's not gonna get a visa for the US.
eklavya 13y ago
If you think you are good at coding, why not get into any of the top IT (by employees) companies. I know they are recruiting the lowest of the bottom barrel. Why not join them and make a decent pay and a career while meeting some experienced people who actually know stuff. I think it's impossible for anyone even just barely decent in programming to get a job in India. I have seen people get into Motorola while searching for jobs like nomads. They were not from premier or even well known institutes. What you are subjecting yourself to is incomprehensible based on your objectives.
onion2k 13y ago
I get bored like after 20 minutes of playing with anything. I’ve tried as many techniques as I could in 2 years to discipline myself. You learn discipline by sticking with something despite wanting to jump to something else.
devnonymous 13y ago
Oh FFS ! This really hit a nerve and I'm gonna rant. I absolutely hate Indian kids these days who bitch and moan about how tough it is to do awesome shit and get a decent enough pay for it, in a place like ...ehe ...Chandigarh ! Chirst !! Just grow the eff up !! Here are some facts that this guy might want to think about: a. Today, India has way more internet penetration than even 10 years ago and it also cheap enough to afford a home connection. Yes, even in a place like Chandigarh !! </sarcasm>. Though the average so called 'broadband' access it still far from what might be available in developed nations, programmers these days can at least do a quick google while they are working on something, instead of having to batch all of the querying do be done from a cybercafe. That is what we went through. b. Having to work at a sweatshop, putting in the hours doing grunt work, earning peanuts and knowing that you could do better hasn't changed much from the way I remember it ...oh wait, hell yeah it has ! These days, you will at least have a computer to yourself. You will at least have comfortable chairs. You won't be working shifts and they at least will be paying you (I refuse to believe the $100 bit) as opposed to slaving it out, while it's being called 'training' (worse still, you have to pay them for the opportunity). That is what went through. c. They don't have LUGs, Hackathons or any sort of local mailing lists ...oh geez, why the f* not !??! I'll tell you why ? 'cos people like this guy will bitch and moan about it all the time but will not take the initiative to just start one up themself. Indian programmers, (most of them, tbh) expect that things where they can just go to and learn just 'exist'. It's a small percentage of people who would think -- "here is this thing that I already know and I can share, let me do that with another person. It would be a very happy pleasant coincidence if the other person knows and can share something that I don't already know". Come on man, start up a LUG, organize a hackathon, visit the computer lab in your local college and speak to that girl who appears to be frantically coding on a lab computer because her parents think getting a computer for her at home would be a waste of money ...and anyways, it's not like she needs any more education !! d. ....I could go on, but I just realized the source of these sort of bitch-and-moan posts, as I write this. The sense of entitlement that youngsters in India have these days. You know what buddy, you can't address people who just happen to be in a better place than you as 'first world dev' just because you happen to live in India. Being 'First World' anything is about a state of mind where your own personal issues are greater than other peoples, with the irony that the issues come from a sense of entitlement. Take a long hard look at your life and think about why you ought to be entitled to the things that you think you ought to be. rant done.
RealGeek 13y ago
I was in your shoes 10 years ago. Even worse, I was in Ludhiana (Punjab) where I couldn't even find another web developer. Getting out of such nightmare in India is a lot easier India than developed countries. You just need to make more money than salary of your job to get out it; which is about $100 at this point for you. In Silicon Valley and NYC, developers need to make $5,000 to pay bills. $500 is considered a decent salary for a first job in India; here are few ways to make $500 / month. 1) Freelancing: You can find better gigs on job boards like http://jobs.wordpress.net http://jobs.wordpress.net and https://groups.drupal.org/jobs https://groups.drupal.org/jobs I run a startup (http://www.ranksignals.com http://www.ranksignals.com), we could hire you for a freelance job if you are interested. My contact info is on my profile. 2) Blogging: Start a blog and promote it, you need about 5,000+ page views per day to make $500 a month. 3) Sell small plugins & themes on ThemeForest and CodeCanyon. You can make a lot more than $500, there are developers grossing over $100,000 per month. If you want to get a full time job, don't work at a body shop. Work at a product or ecommerce startup, they offer higher pay and better experience. Companies like FlipKart are offering 10 lacs/year salary to new developers.
- akgerber 13y ago
  You definitely don't need $5000/mo. to pay bills in NYC, except maybe if you're trying to raise a family on your salary alone in a fancy neighborhood. I live very well on $2000/mo., and could easily cut that without excessive sacrifice by moving to a less happening neighborhood with a bit longer commute than my current 35 minutes (say: parts of Jersey City; Sunset Park or Ditmas Park, Brooklyn; Jackson Heights, Queens; Inwood, Manhattan; Riverdale, Bronx; Stapleton, Staten Island) and cooking more of my own food.
  - RealGeek 13y ago
    If your salary is $5,000; you get about $3,000 to $3,500 in pocket after taxes, health insurance, social security and other deductions. I live quite far from NYC in White Plains, rent for 1 bedroom apartment here is $2400. PS. I am sure there are people surviving for $500 a month in NYC, but that is not the lifestyle most developers desire when they have job offers for $80,000 to $120,000. In fact, most developers I've met say they want to make $10,000 per month to quit their job.
code_duck 13y ago
I totally empathize with his positions. I've worked in a couple of niche markets for years and felt stifled by geographic isolation as well as my lack of experience working like most people do – in a team, with a boss or manager guiding your actions. I too have suffered from a lack of focus and self-confidence. I've thought of getting various sorts of jobs using my skills, but on the other hand I know that I truly value the freedom of working for myself and I would miss it.
jezclaremurugan 13y ago
Wrong. Wrong not as in you are lying, but wrong as in - it does not have to be the case. I would strongly advise the OP not to join... * Less pay (< $100 month) - totally off, recently I had an offer from a startup in Chandigarh for a very competitive salary - close to $2000 a month (pm me if you want the recruiter's email id). * PHP projects - There a lot of vacancies for python, ruby, nodejs and angularjs jobs, either you need experience or you should have decent projects in your github repo. * 48 hours - might be possible, but does not have to be the case * Joining for a team - Joining a sweatshop for working with a team from whom you can learn is __Stupid__ - Chances of finding someone with proper skills in a sweatshop is close to zero. * Bond with 2 months pay - Firstly it is illegal, but, yes I do know that sweatshops do have this practice. Avoid it at all costs. Or you can simply not pay them, as there is no way they can enforce the bond (legally). But this is a huge red flag. A proper company does not ask for that - period. * 0 friends - where do you live? There are PG accommodations available brimming with social life (with individual accommodation - it is not always a shared thing). I currently live in one - and it is awesome. * Change your life in 9 months - by working in a sweatshop? Not going to happen, you will instead be stuck in a pathetic project which ruins your career prospects further. * Move to Delhi/NCR region - it is close to CH, and not as far as B'lore/Chennai/Hyderabad, and you have globally respected brands here.
- allochthon 13y ago
  It's nice to hear that not all devs in Chandigarh are stuck in a bad situation.
klaasn 13y ago
I think it goes both ways. Our company Agile Media Lab is in Chandigarh and we are having a lot of difficulty to find highly qualified resources. We normally do around 100 interviews for each hire and we still have several positions open we still can't fill. We do pay at the top of the market. Currently we are trying to bring in talent from Delhi and Bangalore. You can email me at klaas@agilemedialab.in if you are interested.
avemuri 13y ago
We run two startup coworking spaces in Delhi, so not too far away. I don't know how tied you are to Chandigarh, but I can introduce you to a few startups that are looking for devs. Even if you can't move, shoot me an email, we regularly get requests for contract/remote work.
vinceguidry 13y ago
You are looking for discipline in the wrong place. I thought I could find it in the military, I was wrong. I thought leaving the military and subjecting myself to the cold reality of the free market would force me to develop it. I was wrong. I thought starting a company would make me focus. I was wrong. Finally, with no other options left, I entered corporate America. Having a large, nasty ongoing project, clear motivation to keep working on it, and the latitude to implement my own approach was all I needed to start making real progress on my own inner quest for productivity. In retrospect, it was not the last thing that I did that finally "did the trick." It was the combination of everything I'd done. There weren't any magic tricks, no way to skip the years of paying dues. There's no way to force it, even if you throw yourself into the ultimate sink-or-swim environment, if you aren't ready for that particular experience, you'll either sink, or you'll swim, but find that swimming doesn't mean what you think it means. Your current course of action will not have the intended result. What will happen is that you'll get burned out. Then you'll have nothing to show for it but the experience. You'll take that experience to your next big push and build on it. And so on and so forth. At some point, all of that accumulated experience will drive out some small success. Might take three years, probably will be closer to 8-10. Then the game will change, you'll have mastered productivity and now you're playing a management game rather than a survival one. You're lucky in that you're driven to make this transition, most career techs aren't, they stay at the level of survival their entire lives.
- dasil003 13y ago
  I'm glad you have the voice of experience to put behind my thoughts. When I read the story the motivation made sense, but my fear for the author is that working in such a body shop will destroy his love of programming which is a pretty disastrous thing to happen to one's career path in today's world.
  - vinceguidry 13y ago
    If it does, then he really doesn't have a love of programming. Which isn't the end of the world. I wouldn't be too worried about losing career steam. There are plenty of things for a person who can code but doesn't have a passion for it to do. In fact, there are probably many more roles a person like this can take than someone who just wants to code all the time. And they can be a lot more lucrative. Burnout is probably going to be a good thing. Some people need to be forced to consider alternative career paths and skills to develop. Burnout will definitely do that. The new direction will ultimately prove to be valuable later on, but you won't realize it in the moment.
vitd 13y ago
It's hard to tell from just a single blog post, but one thing that strikes me is how focused you are on computers and computer work. It sounds to me like you don't do anything else. Have you considered getting a hobby? Perhaps music, dance, photography, sports, or something else that gets you out of the house and meeting people besides computer stuff? It sounds to me like you're burning yourself out by focusing so acutely on only computer stuff.
hemantv 13y ago
I am 100% sure, you are just exaggerating the salary figure.
super-serial 13y ago
I feel exactly the same as you about working from home... except I live in the US. About 7 years ago I quit my .NET programming job. I got that job right after I graduated college. For the 3 years I was there I did great work. I kept getting bonuses and raises for shipping products. And I saved up some money, cashed in my 401k, and quit. Since then I've never been able to be productive. I tried contract work here and there but I've never had the self-discipline. Actually I've made less money in the last 7 years combined from programming than 1 month at my real job. Think about that... I haven't made $5K from programming over these last 7 years. Of course I needed money so I started working part-time jobs. I currently work 24 hours a week for near minimum-wage, often having to shovel snow in sub-zero temperatures. I thought the worse I suffer the more I'll get motivated to do work at home. That has not happened. I have nothing to show for these last 7 years except half-completed projects and a free productivity extension that 5,000 people use - but obviously does not work for me. So maybe getting a job is the right thing for you. If you can't work from home, you can't work from home. You'll have to accept the best terms you can find, and if that's $100/mon then that may be your only option. As for me... I would rather die than get a programming job. I'm as defiant as ever. I love programming, but I only love programming my own ideas. Even the thought of programming for someone else makes me feel physically ill (like throwing up). So either I make it as an Indie developer or I die as a janitor. Your post made me realize I should feel lucky that I have the option to be a janitor for $10/hr. You don't even have that option.
- icefox 13y ago
  Why did you cashed in your 401k
  - super-serial 13y ago
    Retirement was 40 years away, and I was confident that I'd start making some serious money with one of my ideas. Actually I'm still optimistic about that. In startup terms I thought it would give me more runway.
eddy_chan 13y ago
Thanks for the insight into the world of ODesk 'Agencies', you've confirmed for me what my hunch was all along. Recently I put a Django Ecommerce site job there for $10k USD and you won't believe how many phone calls/emails/linkedin requests I received from 'Agencies' primarily in India/Pakistan but some from Eastern Europe as well promising me the world for my $10k. When you have to sift through all of this the cookie cutter scripts everything becomes apparent and you realise it's a thin veil of bullshit, the product managers (middlemen) that call you up in reality have a team of very lowly paid junior devs who are incapable of doing the project. (Evidenced by me asking some moderately difficult technical/architectural questions) And very few have a track record of getting shit done and delivering. I would never hire an 'dev agency' via Odesk after this experience, it's too hard to sort the good from the bad as an employer in a 1st world country. I ended up interviewing freelancers only and liked what I saw/heard - I thought the freelancers on ODesk were of quite a high standard actually. Ended up hiring a fairly senior engineer for the project. If he pulls through I will offer him ongoing work for $2-$3k a month.
gurvinder 13y ago
Send me an email, I have a job for you in your city for much better salary in much better terms ( no bonds) and no body shop.
- eru 13y ago
  You should include your email address in your profile, if you want OP to contact you.
  - gurvinder 13y ago
    Done
emocakes 13y ago
who cares. maybe if '3rd world' devs actually produced better code and contributed to community (more than just joining IRC, asking for help, then leaving without saying thanks), they might be able to make a better name for themselves and in turn be able to bargain for better conditions.
rachellaw 13y ago
He sounds like he wants to be a self-sacrificing martyr hero for coding. What's the point of all this? Are we supposed to hail him as a "one true coder" for willing to do this? Is this a competition about who can take the most pain? It's so pointless.
- heaven00 13y ago
  you have watched too many episodes. he just need some help and some direction in the right path.
vamsinator 13y ago
Here's the perspective from a first world client. We contracted with Delhi dev shop and were paying about $8000 Australian dollars per month for the equivalent of 3 developers (mix of backend devs full time, and on call front end dev, designer, tester) I think our junior dev was charged out at $1300 per month so if using standard agency markup of 100% her salary would've been around $650 per month (~26000 rupees per month). The manager was also always complaining that new recruits kept increasing their demands each year. So it's strange that there's such a difference in salaries between 2 cities so close by. If it was true then I'd expect programmers to move to Delhi.
ishansharma 13y ago
Now that is plain exploitation indeed. I live nearby and am about to graduate. I am going to a good company but they have 2 year bond. I've been working from home for 3-4 years part time and I think my little bits of experience can help you: 1. When It comes to discipline, it is very hard! What I have been doing is measuring everything. I got Rescue Time subscription and now, every minute on the computer is measured! If I don't have a productivity score of 60+ by the end of the day, I know that things need to change. After that, it takes a lot of self control. 2. For networking, online relations can help a lot. Remote teams are great to work with. I have a small group of 3-4 people, all at different places but they help in making sure that I don't get bored and am accountable for what I do! 3. All you need to network is one good friend who is also a networker. I went to a small web development firm for internship and now I'm friends with the COO there. He's helped me with contacts. Some of my relatives are also in IT industry, so there's some help. 9 months is quite a long time and I'm sure some part in this decision is social pressure (I earn good enough while doing studies as well, but everyone around pushes me to get "experience" in big firms!)
exabrial 13y ago
I think overseas development will only be competitive when they start producing products for themselves. The main reason off-shoring fails is because of culture and communication differences. (I'm not a world traveler, so disregard the next remarks if you have better insight than me.) I noticed while working with chinese developers they were terrified to tell me they were having a problem with a task I assigned. They also had no problems passing extremely poorly designed code in order to meet a deadline. It didn't even have to work, the understanding was, you just have to turn something in before the deadline. I had a developer that couldn't get writes to the database working consistently. So he wrote them to a file on disk... I guess that was good enough. Working with Indian developers is a much more mixed experience. Aside from them interrupting you constantly, which I cannot stand, some of their attitudes were downright laughable. "I have 5 years experience, which is about 10 American years experience" one guy told me as he explained that it would be better to write their own messaging layer instead of my selection of ActiveMQ. Anyway, if Twitter/Google/whatever was based in India or China, I imagine the leaders would know how to use their labor effectively to produce competitive companies. I don't see American companies ever using overseas labor effectively. The cultures are just inherently incompatible for working on a subjective task like software development.
switch33 13y ago
I have a small AI group on skype with similar interests. Add my skype: Switch336

218 points by channikhabra 13y ago

gexla 13y ago

> I can do it myself sitting at home, I’ve done a couple projects, but it was not fun. No you can't, obviously. You just said it. For one, you don't enjoy it. What you need to learn is that straight programming isn't a valuable skill by itself. You already know this because you wrote an article about it. You need to be able to tie your programming skills with other skills such as selling yourself as the person to get the job done. Once you get the job, you need to be able to ship it. There are programming skills that are valuable in isolation. If you are a world expert on a certain domain which lacks talent, then that's valuable. But that's not really isolation, that's tying your programming skills with a certain specialty. Take a look at the model you are working under. There is a whole spectrum of jobs from good to crap. On Odesk, there are a sprinkling of good and a lot of crap. I imagine the company employing you is saying yes to every job that comes their way. They probably don't get good jobs, so it's all crap. They get crap jobs which pay crap and of course you are going to get a small slice of a crap pie. Why take a job just because it's there? Okay, you laid out a bunch of reasons but you still hate it. I would probably hate working on crap jobs also. People worked for Steve Jobs because the guy was... well... Steve Jobs. Why are you working for people who are trying to compete on the worst model in web development, the race to the bottom in pricing? If you know good developers, then maybe you could start your own development shop and get those developers to work for you. If you hate the work but you can get jobs, then maybe do the selling and have the other developers do the work. Or maybe you could come up with your own projects and monetize them. You just have to hustle, just like everyone else does. You can't just write code and expect the world to come to you. Get out there and make things happen. Edit: In other words, quit whining. ;) Edit: Edit: I could write a book on this subject. The above is just an attempt at an off the cuff capture. There are a ton of threads on HN which are hugely valuable on bringing the bacon as a developer. Just look around, it's more productive than ranting about your situation. Clearly the person you are working for is trying to take a "this is how everything is done here" approach to running a dev shop and hiring developers. It's the same in the Philippines. Everyone works 10 hour days, 6 days a week and within a certain band of salary. I suppose the U.S. is like that to some degree. We have the 9 to 5 and 40 hour weeks. Disruption in your case would be pretty easy. If the company has decent employees, then you could scoop them all up.

rjzzleep 13y ago
it doesn't really matter if the job is good or crap. the guy that hires you already thinks you're crap, and why would you care about some job they outsource to you because they don't even want to pay minimum wage? you don't think that value comes across exactly that way? that said indians have a major cultural problem. they're way too nice, and they're also way too enduring, and they find other ways to vent that. when i was in the US they were putting their shit on the indians, because they knew that since they really wanted to stay in the US they would endure all the shit, and not talk back. some of these people got dumped on their 6th year, because that's when the employer has to decide on whether they sponsor a green card or just get a new one. odesk encourages crap, because the people that come there generally don't think hey i'll get an awesome guy on there who i can't find in my environment. they think hey my project is super easy anyway. i'll get a cheap dude to build exactly what i want. don't get me wrong i know some really good developers, and employers on odesk(well truth be told it's just 1 of either). but they're there no doubt. what disgusted me the most was that the guy i was working with (who used odesk to get cheap developers) was thinking that he was doing them a favor. he thought of himself of some kind of savior, because he was helping indians so much.
- eklavya 13y ago
  Well the culture is really really diverse to cast into a single type. You have to be extra nice AND enduring when there are 100s more like you wanting the same job. The only way out of it is to make yourself better so the competition isn't as fierce or just bend over and take it all in.
- Nursie 13y ago
  >> that said indians have a major cultural problem. they're way too nice, and they're also way too enduring, and they find other ways to vent that. When I've dealt with teams in India (rather than Indian folk in western nations) I've had problems with this. It's not niceness, it's being non-confrontational. To excess. When you ask if they understand (so you could offer help or training on a technical question, for example) it's "yes, certainly". And then a week later you get the email saying no progress has been made because they don't understand something. It's irritating.

aviraldg 13y ago

I'm not sure why OP thinks this is going to be a good idea. The kind of projects he'll get to work on will almost always be the usual Odesk "clone XYZ in $X" tripe. Also, the sort of company he's talking about is unlikely to have senior developers experienced enough to mentor him (from what I know about these companies.) Working on an open source project instead would be much more constructive and would get him engaged with experienced developers who could teach him a thing or two. If he's still a student (and it looks like he is) GSoC might be a great way to get started with this. Also, I would avoid Odesk like the plague. Build up a portfolio (open source works as well) and connect with people on HN.

gallamine 13y ago
OP's problem was discipline. I don't he doesn't realize that working on OSS would be better, but he said he can't seem to do that. Frankly it seems like OP is more depressed than anything - alone and isolated in a strange place.
GvS 13y ago
I did some projects from both oDesk and HN. They were quite similar. oDesk projects I've chosen were more interesting but quite short and HN jobs were longer but not so great as you would expect from HN.
- eru 13y ago
  What's HN in this context?
  - GvS 13y ago
    Hacker news monthly job topics.
mkaziz 13y ago
How do you go about building a portfolio? Do you do free/cheap work for people, or do you just make things you think people might like or be impressed by?
13y ago

negamax 13y ago

I am from India. And worked for over a year on oDesk. I think it's painting the whole industry with a very wide brush. Personally know people in Delhi/Mumbai making very comfortable salary.

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ctdonath 13y ago

I will be working 48 hours a week (excluding break; mon-sat 10 am to 7 pm) for less than $100 per month. Move.

ashray 13y ago
I just want to clarify that this is nowhere close to the average salary a dev earns in India (a decent developer can make anywhere between $400/mo to $3000/mo). I'm not sure what company he's working for but it sounds like a real sweatshop. You can find better gigs even in Chandigarh (it's not known for IT that much..), but for that - you probably need to be better at what you do, or maybe you need to learn how to sell yourself better.
- jezclaremurugan 13y ago
  Exactly, and in India $2000 a month goes a long way.

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SuddsMcDuff 13y ago

Meanwhile, somewhere in Western Europe, someone gets made redundant.

lgieron 13y ago
Not necessarily, some of the projects outsourced at third world rates only exist because the rates are so low. For example, I have a friend who toyed with the idea of making money in the app store - it costed him only about $100 to have a simple app done by an Indian developer, which was acceptable for him; I'm pretty sure having to spend 5-10x more for a western developer would be too much of a risk for him. As for the cases where people in the west are actually made redundant - the west has ruthlessly exploited its colonies for a couple centuries and now, thanks to free trade, it is allowing for some balancing in the global economy, which means both poor countries getting richer and some people in rich countries being worse off. I'd say that in the grand scale of things it's justice, and long overdue.
- SuddsMcDuff 13y ago
  I find myself quite conflicted as I agree with everything you say, but I am also one of the unfortunate people who's career is suffering due to rampant off-shoring.
  - lgieron 13y ago
    I agree, irregardless of the big picture, that is always sad on an individual level. BTW I think the way to at least partially combat outsourcing in rich countries is through agreeing to work for lower wages (which would still be higher than national average, I'm not advocating becoming working poor). Arguably, that's what's already happening, and that's one of the reasons why programmers don't earn nearly as much as some of the other professionals.
  - eru 13y ago
    I assume you are in computing / programming? There are loads of jobs available at good salaries world wide. So don't worry about losing your current one.

gkcgautam 13y ago

Charanjit, I'm from Chandigarh too. I can completely understand what you are feeling since I'm completely aware of the situation. Luckily I was doing quite well myself while I graduated (last year) and didn't need to work for any such company. I'm working in a startup now where our major focus is on doing quality work using modern tech. We deal with clients directly and not through websites like oDesk. Great to see that you have worked with backbone etc. Would you like to catchup some time for tech discussion? I have few friends who do that regurlay at weekends. Mail me at gkcgautam@gmail.com :)

diydsp 13y ago

> Things are very bad in my city. There is no any kind of active community of computer enthusiasts; be it some Linux Users Group or something similar. Start one! Seriously- no jive. Be that change that you want. It may be that your affinity is not to be a developer--- you may actually be an organizer of people! Try it! You can do it for free! Make announcements! Start by meeting once every two weeks in the evening and teach people everything you know! You will make connections! You will be tapped to work with others. You will grow along with those around you. The people you help will see your strengths and send better opportunities your way. Trust me, you will see. Seriously, start it up. It is within you to do it and it is free and fun! Find a library or a park or someone's living room or a restaurant. Even if it's just one computer, gather a flock.

hueheu 13y ago

Is HN a blog plateform?

WhitneyLand 13y ago
No but it is a community where sometimes we share our relevant experiences. It's sometimes a lesson to be learned, sometimes cathartic, and sometimes an opportunity to see our humanity.

WhitneyLand 13y ago

Just don't give up man - keep pushing to expand your comfort level. Discipline is something that can be learned, that's why they teach it so much in the military. Difference here is you have to force yourself through the pain once you want it bad enough. It will be worth it.

senthilnayagam 13y ago

Many Indians get exposed to computers at a later age, often not good at computer and programming concepts, their exposure is low. Think of this initial job as internship, but after a year when they know their stuff and can clear technical interviews and with better communications skills the pay package increases significantly. when people switch to more reputed companies in earlier years the hikes they get is between 50-100% . for first 5-7 years the hike is abut 30% by the time these people will settle in large indian or multinational companies.

yummyfajitas 13y ago

Bro, send me an email. I might be able to help you out, provided you stop flaking. If you are able to get shit done, I might be able to exploit you in a more pleasant and productive manner than some odesk bodyshop for similar wages - no bond and no hard feelings when you quit for something better in 2 months. Do you have a github or other code portfolio? (If not, build one.) And get the heck out of Chandigarh. Mumbai, Pune, Bangalore, pick one. There are Hackathons here in Pune and companies who will pay you well over 6000rs/month provided you actually get shit done.

izolate 13y ago
> And get the heck out of Chandigarh. So sad! I was rooting for OP for being a techie in Chandi. I was born in Chandigarh and although I emigrated within a few years of being born, I'll always consider that city a home of mine. I'd really like to do something to support its fledgling tech scene. I've committed myself to the idea of moving to Chandigarh to bootstrap my startup when I decide to go at it alone. I would love for OP to stay in Chandigarh, but I honestly can't say that's a sensible move at this point in time.
- mands 13y ago
  I was thinking of moving back to Punjab to work on my startup for a bit - with Chandigarh at the top of my list of places to set up. Is the tech scene really that bad out there or has the OP just been unlucky?
  - heaven00 13y ago
    Hi, I can confirm that, I had a similar experience. 7k training and 15k when hired and there were few who were not even paid any stipend and was under training for more then 6 months. But, there is always a "but". I have met a few good developers too with whom I enjoyed my time working before leaving the job.
    - mands 13y ago
      Hi. Hmm - good to know, thanks for the insider view.

doktrin 13y ago

That's thoroughly depressing. What does $100 a month translate to in terms of cost of living?

RealGeek 13y ago
Rent for a studio apartment in his city is around $200, it is $300 to $500 in bigger cities like Delhi and Mumbai.

rk0567 13y ago

I think it's a pessimistic approach to discipline. You could just learn to meditate [0]. [0] : http://www.siyli.org/take-the-course/siy-curriculum/ http://www.siyli.org/take-the-course/siy-curriculum/ (a free course on meditation)

mkaziz 13y ago
How would that help?
- rk0567 13y ago
  Better understanding of self (emotional/motivational factors). Loneliness would turn into solitudeness. Better attention span.
  - gkcgautam 13y ago
    Please stop with the trolling if you can't actually understand the problem. Meditation doesn't solve every problem in life.
    - rk0567 13y ago
      It doesn't, it's not a silver bullet but it can help a lot. And my answer was based on my experience (with some variables similar to OP such as working alone on multiple web projects (unfinished), INTP/introvert etc). BTW, based on the fact that your account is ~few hours old, I think you might be the one trolling[1] (or meta-trolling, more accurately) here :-) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
    - purerandomness 13y ago
      OP suffers from an inability to focus on a task over long periods of time. This is exactly the type of problem meditation adresses fairly well. You might be interested in this Google "Tech Talk" on Mindfulness Meditation by Jon Kobat-Zinn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc

shadeless 13y ago

I'm in the same situation as OP, only the location is different (East Europe). I've been at it for 5 months already but I'm on verge of quitting every week since I started. The only thing that stops me from doing it is fear of not being able to make similar amount of money monthly to able to pay bills and rent. I've been trying to work on something on the side but the job leaves me exhausted and the only thing I can do in the evenings and weekends is sleep. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone - we use terrible tech(php and ftp), I haven't learned anything new in months, only taught my (senior) coworkers some tips to work even faster. I'd write more about it but my break is over.

eru 13y ago
Why do you work so hard? Slack off a bit more, and have more energy left over for your projects that will make you grow. What do you have to lose?

RankingMember 13y ago

Godspeed, I can understand your desire for the presence of others of like mind in order to be in the right frame of mind to work. Just be aware that you could do the same thing in the US (or anywhere else, really) and make exponentially more money.

eru 13y ago
He's not gonna get a visa for the US.

eklavya 13y ago

If you think you are good at coding, why not get into any of the top IT (by employees) companies. I know they are recruiting the lowest of the bottom barrel. Why not join them and make a decent pay and a career while meeting some experienced people who actually know stuff. I think it's impossible for anyone even just barely decent in programming to get a job in India. I have seen people get into Motorola while searching for jobs like nomads. They were not from premier or even well known institutes. What you are subjecting yourself to is incomprehensible based on your objectives.

onion2k 13y ago

I get bored like after 20 minutes of playing with anything. I’ve tried as many techniques as I could in 2 years to discipline myself. You learn discipline by sticking with something despite wanting to jump to something else.

devnonymous 13y ago

Oh FFS ! This really hit a nerve and I'm gonna rant. I absolutely hate Indian kids these days who bitch and moan about how tough it is to do awesome shit and get a decent enough pay for it, in a place like ...ehe ...Chandigarh ! Chirst !! Just grow the eff up !! Here are some facts that this guy might want to think about: a. Today, India has way more internet penetration than even 10 years ago and it also cheap enough to afford a home connection. Yes, even in a place like Chandigarh !! </sarcasm>. Though the average so called 'broadband' access it still far from what might be available in developed nations, programmers these days can at least do a quick google while they are working on something, instead of having to batch all of the querying do be done from a cybercafe. That is what we went through. b. Having to work at a sweatshop, putting in the hours doing grunt work, earning peanuts and knowing that you could do better hasn't changed much from the way I remember it ...oh wait, hell yeah it has ! These days, you will at least have a computer to yourself. You will at least have comfortable chairs. You won't be working shifts and they at least will be paying you (I refuse to believe the $100 bit) as opposed to slaving it out, while it's being called 'training' (worse still, you have to pay them for the opportunity). That is what went through. c. They don't have LUGs, Hackathons or any sort of local mailing lists ...oh geez, why the f* not !??! I'll tell you why ? 'cos people like this guy will bitch and moan about it all the time but will not take the initiative to just start one up themself. Indian programmers, (most of them, tbh) expect that things where they can just go to and learn just 'exist'. It's a small percentage of people who would think -- "here is this thing that I already know and I can share, let me do that with another person. It would be a very happy pleasant coincidence if the other person knows and can share something that I don't already know". Come on man, start up a LUG, organize a hackathon, visit the computer lab in your local college and speak to that girl who appears to be frantically coding on a lab computer because her parents think getting a computer for her at home would be a waste of money ...and anyways, it's not like she needs any more education !! d. ....I could go on, but I just realized the source of these sort of bitch-and-moan posts, as I write this. The sense of entitlement that youngsters in India have these days. You know what buddy, you can't address people who just happen to be in a better place than you as 'first world dev' just because you happen to live in India. Being 'First World' anything is about a state of mind where your own personal issues are greater than other peoples, with the irony that the issues come from a sense of entitlement. Take a long hard look at your life and think about why you ought to be entitled to the things that you think you ought to be. rant done.

RealGeek 13y ago

I was in your shoes 10 years ago. Even worse, I was in Ludhiana (Punjab) where I couldn't even find another web developer. Getting out of such nightmare in India is a lot easier India than developed countries. You just need to make more money than salary of your job to get out it; which is about $100 at this point for you. In Silicon Valley and NYC, developers need to make $5,000 to pay bills. $500 is considered a decent salary for a first job in India; here are few ways to make $500 / month. 1) Freelancing: You can find better gigs on job boards like http://jobs.wordpress.net http://jobs.wordpress.net and https://groups.drupal.org/jobs https://groups.drupal.org/jobs I run a startup (http://www.ranksignals.com http://www.ranksignals.com), we could hire you for a freelance job if you are interested. My contact info is on my profile. 2) Blogging: Start a blog and promote it, you need about 5,000+ page views per day to make $500 a month. 3) Sell small plugins & themes on ThemeForest and CodeCanyon. You can make a lot more than $500, there are developers grossing over $100,000 per month. If you want to get a full time job, don't work at a body shop. Work at a product or ecommerce startup, they offer higher pay and better experience. Companies like FlipKart are offering 10 lacs/year salary to new developers.

akgerber 13y ago
You definitely don't need $5000/mo. to pay bills in NYC, except maybe if you're trying to raise a family on your salary alone in a fancy neighborhood. I live very well on $2000/mo., and could easily cut that without excessive sacrifice by moving to a less happening neighborhood with a bit longer commute than my current 35 minutes (say: parts of Jersey City; Sunset Park or Ditmas Park, Brooklyn; Jackson Heights, Queens; Inwood, Manhattan; Riverdale, Bronx; Stapleton, Staten Island) and cooking more of my own food.
- RealGeek 13y ago
  If your salary is $5,000; you get about $3,000 to $3,500 in pocket after taxes, health insurance, social security and other deductions. I live quite far from NYC in White Plains, rent for 1 bedroom apartment here is $2400. PS. I am sure there are people surviving for $500 a month in NYC, but that is not the lifestyle most developers desire when they have job offers for $80,000 to $120,000. In fact, most developers I've met say they want to make $10,000 per month to quit their job.

code_duck 13y ago

I totally empathize with his positions. I've worked in a couple of niche markets for years and felt stifled by geographic isolation as well as my lack of experience working like most people do – in a team, with a boss or manager guiding your actions. I too have suffered from a lack of focus and self-confidence. I've thought of getting various sorts of jobs using my skills, but on the other hand I know that I truly value the freedom of working for myself and I would miss it.

jezclaremurugan 13y ago

Wrong. Wrong not as in you are lying, but wrong as in - it does not have to be the case. I would strongly advise the OP not to join... * Less pay (< $100 month) - totally off, recently I had an offer from a startup in Chandigarh for a very competitive salary - close to $2000 a month (pm me if you want the recruiter's email id). * PHP projects - There a lot of vacancies for python, ruby, nodejs and angularjs jobs, either you need experience or you should have decent projects in your github repo. * 48 hours - might be possible, but does not have to be the case * Joining for a team - Joining a sweatshop for working with a team from whom you can learn is __Stupid__ - Chances of finding someone with proper skills in a sweatshop is close to zero. * Bond with 2 months pay - Firstly it is illegal, but, yes I do know that sweatshops do have this practice. Avoid it at all costs. Or you can simply not pay them, as there is no way they can enforce the bond (legally). But this is a huge red flag. A proper company does not ask for that - period. * 0 friends - where do you live? There are PG accommodations available brimming with social life (with individual accommodation - it is not always a shared thing). I currently live in one - and it is awesome. * Change your life in 9 months - by working in a sweatshop? Not going to happen, you will instead be stuck in a pathetic project which ruins your career prospects further. * Move to Delhi/NCR region - it is close to CH, and not as far as B'lore/Chennai/Hyderabad, and you have globally respected brands here.

allochthon 13y ago
It's nice to hear that not all devs in Chandigarh are stuck in a bad situation.

klaasn 13y ago

I think it goes both ways. Our company Agile Media Lab is in Chandigarh and we are having a lot of difficulty to find highly qualified resources. We normally do around 100 interviews for each hire and we still have several positions open we still can't fill. We do pay at the top of the market. Currently we are trying to bring in talent from Delhi and Bangalore. You can email me at klaas@agilemedialab.in if you are interested.

avemuri 13y ago

We run two startup coworking spaces in Delhi, so not too far away. I don't know how tied you are to Chandigarh, but I can introduce you to a few startups that are looking for devs. Even if you can't move, shoot me an email, we regularly get requests for contract/remote work.

vinceguidry 13y ago

You are looking for discipline in the wrong place. I thought I could find it in the military, I was wrong. I thought leaving the military and subjecting myself to the cold reality of the free market would force me to develop it. I was wrong. I thought starting a company would make me focus. I was wrong. Finally, with no other options left, I entered corporate America. Having a large, nasty ongoing project, clear motivation to keep working on it, and the latitude to implement my own approach was all I needed to start making real progress on my own inner quest for productivity. In retrospect, it was not the last thing that I did that finally "did the trick." It was the combination of everything I'd done. There weren't any magic tricks, no way to skip the years of paying dues. There's no way to force it, even if you throw yourself into the ultimate sink-or-swim environment, if you aren't ready for that particular experience, you'll either sink, or you'll swim, but find that swimming doesn't mean what you think it means. Your current course of action will not have the intended result. What will happen is that you'll get burned out. Then you'll have nothing to show for it but the experience. You'll take that experience to your next big push and build on it. And so on and so forth. At some point, all of that accumulated experience will drive out some small success. Might take three years, probably will be closer to 8-10. Then the game will change, you'll have mastered productivity and now you're playing a management game rather than a survival one. You're lucky in that you're driven to make this transition, most career techs aren't, they stay at the level of survival their entire lives.

dasil003 13y ago
I'm glad you have the voice of experience to put behind my thoughts. When I read the story the motivation made sense, but my fear for the author is that working in such a body shop will destroy his love of programming which is a pretty disastrous thing to happen to one's career path in today's world.
- vinceguidry 13y ago
  If it does, then he really doesn't have a love of programming. Which isn't the end of the world. I wouldn't be too worried about losing career steam. There are plenty of things for a person who can code but doesn't have a passion for it to do. In fact, there are probably many more roles a person like this can take than someone who just wants to code all the time. And they can be a lot more lucrative. Burnout is probably going to be a good thing. Some people need to be forced to consider alternative career paths and skills to develop. Burnout will definitely do that. The new direction will ultimately prove to be valuable later on, but you won't realize it in the moment.

vitd 13y ago

It's hard to tell from just a single blog post, but one thing that strikes me is how focused you are on computers and computer work. It sounds to me like you don't do anything else. Have you considered getting a hobby? Perhaps music, dance, photography, sports, or something else that gets you out of the house and meeting people besides computer stuff? It sounds to me like you're burning yourself out by focusing so acutely on only computer stuff.

hemantv 13y ago

I am 100% sure, you are just exaggerating the salary figure.

super-serial 13y ago

I feel exactly the same as you about working from home... except I live in the US. About 7 years ago I quit my .NET programming job. I got that job right after I graduated college. For the 3 years I was there I did great work. I kept getting bonuses and raises for shipping products. And I saved up some money, cashed in my 401k, and quit. Since then I've never been able to be productive. I tried contract work here and there but I've never had the self-discipline. Actually I've made less money in the last 7 years combined from programming than 1 month at my real job. Think about that... I haven't made $5K from programming over these last 7 years. Of course I needed money so I started working part-time jobs. I currently work 24 hours a week for near minimum-wage, often having to shovel snow in sub-zero temperatures. I thought the worse I suffer the more I'll get motivated to do work at home. That has not happened. I have nothing to show for these last 7 years except half-completed projects and a free productivity extension that 5,000 people use - but obviously does not work for me. So maybe getting a job is the right thing for you. If you can't work from home, you can't work from home. You'll have to accept the best terms you can find, and if that's $100/mon then that may be your only option. As for me... I would rather die than get a programming job. I'm as defiant as ever. I love programming, but I only love programming my own ideas. Even the thought of programming for someone else makes me feel physically ill (like throwing up). So either I make it as an Indie developer or I die as a janitor. Your post made me realize I should feel lucky that I have the option to be a janitor for $10/hr. You don't even have that option.

icefox 13y ago
Why did you cashed in your 401k
- super-serial 13y ago
  Retirement was 40 years away, and I was confident that I'd start making some serious money with one of my ideas. Actually I'm still optimistic about that. In startup terms I thought it would give me more runway.

eddy_chan 13y ago

Thanks for the insight into the world of ODesk 'Agencies', you've confirmed for me what my hunch was all along. Recently I put a Django Ecommerce site job there for $10k USD and you won't believe how many phone calls/emails/linkedin requests I received from 'Agencies' primarily in India/Pakistan but some from Eastern Europe as well promising me the world for my $10k. When you have to sift through all of this the cookie cutter scripts everything becomes apparent and you realise it's a thin veil of bullshit, the product managers (middlemen) that call you up in reality have a team of very lowly paid junior devs who are incapable of doing the project. (Evidenced by me asking some moderately difficult technical/architectural questions) And very few have a track record of getting shit done and delivering. I would never hire an 'dev agency' via Odesk after this experience, it's too hard to sort the good from the bad as an employer in a 1st world country. I ended up interviewing freelancers only and liked what I saw/heard - I thought the freelancers on ODesk were of quite a high standard actually. Ended up hiring a fairly senior engineer for the project. If he pulls through I will offer him ongoing work for $2-$3k a month.

gurvinder 13y ago

Send me an email, I have a job for you in your city for much better salary in much better terms ( no bonds) and no body shop.

eru 13y ago
You should include your email address in your profile, if you want OP to contact you.
- gurvinder 13y ago
  Done

emocakes 13y ago

who cares. maybe if '3rd world' devs actually produced better code and contributed to community (more than just joining IRC, asking for help, then leaving without saying thanks), they might be able to make a better name for themselves and in turn be able to bargain for better conditions.

rachellaw 13y ago

He sounds like he wants to be a self-sacrificing martyr hero for coding. What's the point of all this? Are we supposed to hail him as a "one true coder" for willing to do this? Is this a competition about who can take the most pain? It's so pointless.

heaven00 13y ago
you have watched too many episodes. he just need some help and some direction in the right path.

vamsinator 13y ago

Here's the perspective from a first world client. We contracted with Delhi dev shop and were paying about $8000 Australian dollars per month for the equivalent of 3 developers (mix of backend devs full time, and on call front end dev, designer, tester) I think our junior dev was charged out at $1300 per month so if using standard agency markup of 100% her salary would've been around $650 per month (~26000 rupees per month). The manager was also always complaining that new recruits kept increasing their demands each year. So it's strange that there's such a difference in salaries between 2 cities so close by. If it was true then I'd expect programmers to move to Delhi.

ishansharma 13y ago

Now that is plain exploitation indeed. I live nearby and am about to graduate. I am going to a good company but they have 2 year bond. I've been working from home for 3-4 years part time and I think my little bits of experience can help you: 1. When It comes to discipline, it is very hard! What I have been doing is measuring everything. I got Rescue Time subscription and now, every minute on the computer is measured! If I don't have a productivity score of 60+ by the end of the day, I know that things need to change. After that, it takes a lot of self control. 2. For networking, online relations can help a lot. Remote teams are great to work with. I have a small group of 3-4 people, all at different places but they help in making sure that I don't get bored and am accountable for what I do! 3. All you need to network is one good friend who is also a networker. I went to a small web development firm for internship and now I'm friends with the COO there. He's helped me with contacts. Some of my relatives are also in IT industry, so there's some help. 9 months is quite a long time and I'm sure some part in this decision is social pressure (I earn good enough while doing studies as well, but everyone around pushes me to get "experience" in big firms!)

exabrial 13y ago

I think overseas development will only be competitive when they start producing products for themselves. The main reason off-shoring fails is because of culture and communication differences. (I'm not a world traveler, so disregard the next remarks if you have better insight than me.) I noticed while working with chinese developers they were terrified to tell me they were having a problem with a task I assigned. They also had no problems passing extremely poorly designed code in order to meet a deadline. It didn't even have to work, the understanding was, you just have to turn something in before the deadline. I had a developer that couldn't get writes to the database working consistently. So he wrote them to a file on disk... I guess that was good enough. Working with Indian developers is a much more mixed experience. Aside from them interrupting you constantly, which I cannot stand, some of their attitudes were downright laughable. "I have 5 years experience, which is about 10 American years experience" one guy told me as he explained that it would be better to write their own messaging layer instead of my selection of ActiveMQ. Anyway, if Twitter/Google/whatever was based in India or China, I imagine the leaders would know how to use their labor effectively to produce competitive companies. I don't see American companies ever using overseas labor effectively. The cultures are just inherently incompatible for working on a subjective task like software development.

switch33 13y ago

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