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Are we supposed to be mad about this or something? I'm no fan of the NSA monitoring everything that every American does for no particular reason, but that isn't
by ufmace 13y ago
Are we supposed to be mad about this or something? I'm no fan of the NSA monitoring everything that every American does for no particular reason, but that isn't what we're talking about here. Every country in the world spies on its enemies, rivals, and allies to the best of their ability. There's no such thing as "Fair Play" in diplomacy.
- 3825 13y agoObama promised spying on Merkel would stop. Should Merkel have looked at the fine print when she talked to Obama? Even if you agree to this premise, the leaks show that NSA is not competent enough to carry out this task. I agree with Mr Scheiner[0] that the NSA ought to be broken up. [0] http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/opinion/schneier-nsa-too-big/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/opinion/schneier-nsa-too-big/
- ufmace 13y agoAll of which is pretty obvious. Of course we're spying on them, and I'm sure they're spying on us too. Somebody made one of the programs public, so of course we're going to promise to stop. What else is Obama going to say, "We're gonna spy on you and you can't stop us, nyah nyah!"? Thus the essential hypocrisy of diplomacy - that's obviously the truth of the situation, and it isn't going to change, but nobody can say it publicly. Clearly, he told them publicly to stop doing that, and through some back channel told them that he really wanted them to only obey the letter of that - keep on spying, just don't use this particular source in this particular way.
- onli 13y agoGermany is not technically able to spy like that on the USA. The german agencies don't have direct access to american telefon lines and communication providers, and not to that amount of internet traffic, nor the technical equipment needed to search through data of that amount. And they don't have the rights to operate like that on american ground (in contrast to the rights the USA still have from after the war). There are american listening posts in Germany, not german listening posts in the USA. Or do you think that if the BND asked the NSA to send over a few million of the collected emails from american citizens, they would happily do so? No, that is of course a one-sided thing. The "of course they are spying on us" is FOX-rhetoric, and wrong.
- tobiasu 13y agoThe US (and UK) have no right to operate listening posts in Germany either. Just because they have some secret contracts or whatever doesn't make it a right. Contracts can be canceled. The current affair would be a very good reason to do so, and close all the military bases in one big swoop.
- eru 13y agoI think, the locals like the military bases well enough in most cases, because the military injects money into the local economy. (I am not sure, whether Germany has to pay for the US bases, though.)
- saym 13y agoI'm pretty sure the US rents the land. You're definitely right about money injection. There are ~48k US Personnel in Germany. Source: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/04/17/report-us-paying-billions-more-for-military-bases-overseas-despite-troop-reductions/ http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/04/17/report-us-paying-b...
- eru 13y agoYes, and as the article says, the locals are also paying. The parlance seems to be "costs and burden-sharing". On the other hand a fraction of ten billion USD is not that much for the Germans to sacrifice for slightly more privacy. (A fraction, since ten billion USD is the total cost the US pays, and Germany is but one country they have bases in.) The bases do provide security, though.
- ufmace 13y agoAnd so what? The world is not a fair place. We can and do spy on all countries using any means at our disposal, as do they. If their means aren't as good as ours, that isn't our problem. If they had better means than us, they would use them, and they wouldn't care that it wasn't "fair".
- 13y ago
- meddlepal 13y agoExactly. As an American I really do not see why I should care if we spy on our allies. We have everything to gain from gathering privileged knowledge and very little to lose.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- DelightfulScone 13y agoWho is our allies? Who are our enemies? Do we spy on them equally? Is the information yielded from spying only used for valid national concerns? The answer is of course you cannot see why you should care, since any duplicity is hidden behind the cloak of good ole patriotic national security there is nothing for you to see. Continue on brave blind soldier.
- meddlepal 13y agoWe should spy on all foreign states equally. We should be actively performing industrial and national-security espionage against foreign companies. Please define what you consider a valid national concern. All of this said - I am wholly opposed to any and all domestic spying without proper legal and constitutional authorization. Further, information learned about America citizens through foreign espionage must never be used and should be destroyed as soon as it is discovered.
- Vik1ng 13y agoSo you don't support things like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Invest...
- ufmace 13y agoLooks fine to me, but I only skimmed it. What in it do you think I should be opposed to? International trade and cooperation is a fine thing. But don't harbor any illusions about it - both sides do it because the benefits to each country outweigh the costs to that country of not doing it. Nobody involved cares a whit about whether anybody thinks any particular part of the agreement is fair. Any claim made by anybody that something is or isn't fair is only a negotiation tactic, meant to try to get the other side to give something up without getting anything in return.
- eru 13y agoThere might be no such thing as "Fair Play", but having a reputation for fair play goes a long, long way.