9 ms·

Parliament expels Ukraine president, protesters seize his compound

66 points by lettergram 13y ago

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- smtddr 13y ago
  Perhaps HN is expanding to be more than 1s & 0s. I think that would be a good thing.
- ceejayoz 13y ago
  http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
- gpvos 13y ago
  It's actually an intellectually interesting matter with many sides, about which intelligent debate is possible.
dmix 13y ago
Meanwhile the Kremlin is not hiding their anger with the situation and isn't relenting in their interference. Russian intelligence agencies have been busy creating and arming their own "Ukrainian Front” as a resistance to the protesters. I'm curious what Russia will do next and if conflict will continue. This is the type of crisis situation intelligence agencies love to exploit. Using citizens for proxy wars to further their interests. http://20committee.com/2014/02/22/kremlin-denounces-independent-ukraine-blames-west/ http://20committee.com/2014/02/22/kremlin-denounces-independ... http://20committee.com/2014/02/03/meet-moscows-new-ukrainian-front/ http://20committee.com/2014/02/03/meet-moscows-new-ukrainian...
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  Russia will do nothing. Today, even Kharkov, the unofficial capital of eastern Ukraine (which is supposed to be loyalist) featured a 30+k manifestation of opposition and had president, mayor and governor fly to Russia. It's too late for Russia to do anything and they won't even if it wasn't. Russian here.
  - danmaz74 13y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if Putin tried to grab Crimea though.
    - IgorPartola 13y ago
      Whaaat? I mean, sure, Russia has been wanting Crimea for a long time for its access to the black sea, but even just the geography of the region would make that impossible without occupying Ukraine. Needless to say, if Russia occupies a foreign country using military force, the West would not be happy.
      - nkoren 13y ago
        Russia is not averse to strategic exclaves; cf. Kaliningrad (and Transnistria, unofficially).
    - daliusd 13y ago
      There are some US ships in Black Sea because of Sochi now. Let's wait until Sochi ends. Again Ukraine is interesting place. E.g. while some of them can be considered Russian because they don't speak Ukrainian language they consider themselves Ukrainians.
    - mcfist 13y ago
      to crab, you mean? :)
    - throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
      This is how Pravda is picturing things: "Meanwhile, in the Crimea, people discuss an opportunity to separate from Ukraine and address Russia with a request to be accepted in the structure of the Russian Federation." http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/20-02-2014/126885-russia_ukraine_yanukovych-0/ http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/20-02-2014/12688... No idea how to interpret this.
jstalin 13y ago
Now is the most critical and pivotal time for the protestors. All revolutions reach the point of actually having to deliver, and it can go many ways. But the most likely two are this: degeneration into infighting, power struggle, and the emerging of a "strong man" who isn't any better than the last, or everyone sitting down at the table, agreeing that it's in everyone's best interest to work together, and putting together a slate of non-corrupted statesmen who have the nation's best interest at heart. Unfortunately, most revolutions go in the first direction.
- gpvos 13y ago
  Problem is, all opposition leaders in Ukraine are corrupt too. The second direction is highly unlikely in this case. And the EU really won't embrace a corrupt Ukraine; they have enough problems with Bulgaria and Romania as it is.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  > Unfortunately, most revolutions go in the first direction. Witness Yushchenko and Tymoshenko fighting for power, only to split the entire 'Orange Revolution' coalition and lose the following elections...
IgorPartola 13y ago
As a Ukrainian-American I really did not see this happening and am very pleasantly surprised. I thought the deal announced on Friday would be it, and the parliament would not have the backbone to deliver anything more. Turns out, there are people in there who actually care about the fate of the country. Now the question is where will it go from here. From what I understand, the opposition leaders are not exactly angels themselves, though certainly much less criminal than Yanukovych (none of them tried to steal an election before AFAIK). On top of that, change in leadership does not necessarily mean change in course. Russian/Putin can still exert quite a bit of force on any Ukrainian president while Ukraine (just like the rest of Europe) is heavily dependent on Russia's natural gas. So it remains to be seen if Ukraine will have enough momentum from this victory to actually reduce corruption and turn more towards the EU to position itself such that the talks with Russia can be done on a more level playing field. I imagine it is hard to negotiate a deal regarding natural gas when you are paying Russia back with borrowed money.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  > (none of them tried to steal an election before AFAIK) What do you call the Orange Revolution? Especially since Yanukovych was elected in the following round of Presidential elections? If anything, the government has been the reasonable party in this whole debacle, with the opposition being represented by violent fascist protesters and racist leaders (Oleh Tyahnybok and Dmitri Yarosh have both risen to prominence).

66 points by lettergram 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

smtddr 13y ago
Perhaps HN is expanding to be more than 1s & 0s. I think that would be a good thing.
ceejayoz 13y ago
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
gpvos 13y ago
It's actually an intellectually interesting matter with many sides, about which intelligent debate is possible.

dmix 13y ago

Meanwhile the Kremlin is not hiding their anger with the situation and isn't relenting in their interference. Russian intelligence agencies have been busy creating and arming their own "Ukrainian Front” as a resistance to the protesters. I'm curious what Russia will do next and if conflict will continue. This is the type of crisis situation intelligence agencies love to exploit. Using citizens for proxy wars to further their interests. http://20committee.com/2014/02/22/kremlin-denounces-independent-ukraine-blames-west/ http://20committee.com/2014/02/22/kremlin-denounces-independ... http://20committee.com/2014/02/03/meet-moscows-new-ukrainian-front/ http://20committee.com/2014/02/03/meet-moscows-new-ukrainian...

guard-of-terra 13y ago
Russia will do nothing. Today, even Kharkov, the unofficial capital of eastern Ukraine (which is supposed to be loyalist) featured a 30+k manifestation of opposition and had president, mayor and governor fly to Russia. It's too late for Russia to do anything and they won't even if it wasn't. Russian here.
- danmaz74 13y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if Putin tried to grab Crimea though.
  - IgorPartola 13y ago
    Whaaat? I mean, sure, Russia has been wanting Crimea for a long time for its access to the black sea, but even just the geography of the region would make that impossible without occupying Ukraine. Needless to say, if Russia occupies a foreign country using military force, the West would not be happy.
    - nkoren 13y ago
      Russia is not averse to strategic exclaves; cf. Kaliningrad (and Transnistria, unofficially).
  - daliusd 13y ago
    There are some US ships in Black Sea because of Sochi now. Let's wait until Sochi ends. Again Ukraine is interesting place. E.g. while some of them can be considered Russian because they don't speak Ukrainian language they consider themselves Ukrainians.
  - mcfist 13y ago
    to crab, you mean? :)
  - throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
    This is how Pravda is picturing things: "Meanwhile, in the Crimea, people discuss an opportunity to separate from Ukraine and address Russia with a request to be accepted in the structure of the Russian Federation." http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/20-02-2014/126885-russia_ukraine_yanukovych-0/ http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/20-02-2014/12688... No idea how to interpret this.

jstalin 13y ago

Now is the most critical and pivotal time for the protestors. All revolutions reach the point of actually having to deliver, and it can go many ways. But the most likely two are this: degeneration into infighting, power struggle, and the emerging of a "strong man" who isn't any better than the last, or everyone sitting down at the table, agreeing that it's in everyone's best interest to work together, and putting together a slate of non-corrupted statesmen who have the nation's best interest at heart. Unfortunately, most revolutions go in the first direction.

gpvos 13y ago
Problem is, all opposition leaders in Ukraine are corrupt too. The second direction is highly unlikely in this case. And the EU really won't embrace a corrupt Ukraine; they have enough problems with Bulgaria and Romania as it is.
Mikeb85 13y ago
> Unfortunately, most revolutions go in the first direction. Witness Yushchenko and Tymoshenko fighting for power, only to split the entire 'Orange Revolution' coalition and lose the following elections...

IgorPartola 13y ago

As a Ukrainian-American I really did not see this happening and am very pleasantly surprised. I thought the deal announced on Friday would be it, and the parliament would not have the backbone to deliver anything more. Turns out, there are people in there who actually care about the fate of the country. Now the question is where will it go from here. From what I understand, the opposition leaders are not exactly angels themselves, though certainly much less criminal than Yanukovych (none of them tried to steal an election before AFAIK). On top of that, change in leadership does not necessarily mean change in course. Russian/Putin can still exert quite a bit of force on any Ukrainian president while Ukraine (just like the rest of Europe) is heavily dependent on Russia's natural gas. So it remains to be seen if Ukraine will have enough momentum from this victory to actually reduce corruption and turn more towards the EU to position itself such that the talks with Russia can be done on a more level playing field. I imagine it is hard to negotiate a deal regarding natural gas when you are paying Russia back with borrowed money.

Mikeb85 13y ago
> (none of them tried to steal an election before AFAIK) What do you call the Orange Revolution? Especially since Yanukovych was elected in the following round of Presidential elections? If anything, the government has been the reasonable party in this whole debacle, with the opposition being represented by violent fascist protesters and racist leaders (Oleh Tyahnybok and Dmitri Yarosh have both risen to prominence).