7 ms·

What is up with the obsession to get women coding? Why does it matter? You don't see anything like this in female-dominated professions.

marquis 13y ago
Yes, you do. Nursing: http://www.minoritynurse.com/tags/men-nursing http://www.minoritynurse.com/tags/men-nursing Teaching: http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/mar/23/advocates-say-schools-need-more-male/ http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/mar/23/advocates-say... ".. who bring a different perspective to the job, may connect better with some children and can provide positive male figures in their lives." Same goes for women in technology or any other misrepresented field.
- paulwithap 13y ago
  Yeah, those are reputable sources.
  - marquis 13y ago
    I'm not maled so I google 'male advocacy' and picked what came up first. Want some equivalent sources on women? I can pick a few hundred off the top of my head. As a feminist I completely support such groups for men also in careers where women are over-representing.
    - cobrausn 13y ago
      How do you actually determine what is 'over-represented' and not just the result of individual agency en masse?
      - saraid216 13y ago
        Individual agency en masse should be a random distribution, which results in a proportionate representation within reasonable error margins. Not having this suggests that there's another factor besides individual agency factoring into decisions. It could be something acceptable, like men can't biologically give birth (yet), or it could be something unacceptable, like blacks being targeted by police solely on suspicion of race. This is one of the ways in which you recognize that something weird is going on with American politics. While it's a good thing to have lawyers in Congress, it's kinda weird that they're overwhelmingly lawyers.
        nousernamesleft 13y ago
        >Individual agency en masse should be a random distribution What are you basing that assumption on? You are 100% certain that there is no possible way that men and women could have different preferences, priorities or interests?
        saraid216 13y ago
        A basic understanding of math, mostly.
        nousernamesleft 13y ago
        Shit, I guess I must have been sick the day we covered "men and women are statistically identical in all choices they make". Was that in calculus?
        saraid216 13y ago
        Why would they be statistically identical? I'm pretty sure I gave a specific example of how this wasn't true. Did you miss English class in addition to math class?
        nousernamesleft 13y ago
        You explicitly stated that any variation from a random distribution must be due to factors other than individual agency. But of course, you know that. How does someone whose posting history is almost entirely blatant trolling like that not manage to get banned more frequently?
        saraid216 13y ago
        Oh, I see. That's why you're on a throwaway. Cool.
        cobrausn 13y ago
    - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
      I don't want to speak for the paulwithap, but it seems we're talking about the disproportionate amount of effort to get men into in careers where women are over-representing compared to the other way around. And also the disproportionate amount of criticism we give to members in that field when they don't. I'm all for anyone doing what ever job they feel like doing as long as they have the skills to do it. I don't even care if they only do it for the money as long as they do it well and don't mess it up for the rest of us.
      - marquis 13y ago
        My uncle lost his job recently as a factory worker and is retraining at the age of 50 to be an nurse aide. He wishes he'd trained as nurse but 30 years ago it was near impossible. Not every man wants to be a brain surgeon. And teachers? That has to be the MOST important group where we should absolutely have equal representation.
        jack-r-abbit 13y ago
        > And teachers? That has to be the MOST important group where we should absolutely have equal representation. I would mostly agree with that. A lot of people probably would. But we don't see a huge number of "guys who teach" or "black guys teach" type programs popping up all over. We don't see article after article full of disdain for the "girls club" that is teaching. It is not just a gender thing. We don't see many "girls who drive trucks" programs either. I think it is some what of a phenomenon having such a large push to specifically get women into coding specifically. It just seems quite disproportionate. I'd like to see more push from other "one gender dominated" fields. [EDIT] Maybe there is and I just don't see it since I'm not in one of those other fields. Sounds like your uncle is finally realizing a desire he's had for many years. Best of luck to him.
        eropple 13y ago
        > we don't see a huge number of "guys who teach" or "black guys teach" type programs popping up all over You don't see a huge number of "girls code" programs, either, you just think you do because some of them have press and you're pretty deep in the culture of software development. Not a bad thing, mind you! But we have to keep in mind observational bias.
  - justinsteele 13y ago
    Seemingly more reputable than your source; you.
  - tzs 13y ago
    Their reputability is irrelevant to their effectiveness as counterexamples to your claim.
  - vectorpush 13y ago
    You don't see anything like this in female-dominated professions. His post directly contradicts that statement, period. The supposed reputability of those sites are irrelevant, especially considering the basis for your own statement is the HN tech bubble.
MrZongle2 13y ago
Much of it is in response to publicized examples of sexist behavior in technical circles and personal anecdotes. That sort of behavior is not acceptable, and people are right to rally in favor of a workplace (and career field) that isn't biased in favor of one gender or another. I can get behind that cause. The remainder of it though, in my opinion, is a bouillabaisse of "it's never enough-ism" from a small group of hardcore feminists, hand-wringing from me-tooers, approval-seekers and undecideds, and some genuinely decent people who have nevertheless been hurt by specific cases of sexism and disproportionately react. It is cyclical. It is a well-intentioned cause, but many times it is myopic.
nicktelford 13y ago
I don't see it as specifically about "getting women coding", rather "addressing the gender bias". Given that approximately 50% of the population (and ~60% of the "educated" population) are women, it's abnormal for a sector to be so heavily male. This indicates that women are being discouraged, in some way, from entering the sector. Women who might otherwise have contributed a great deal to our industry. Think of it more about (nearly) doubling the potential number of excellent software engineers than about "encouraging women to code".
- paulwithap 13y ago
  So, you're saying that aside from genitalia, men and women are exactly the same and, in a vacuum, the distribution of genders in any given profession should be perfectly equal? You really believe that?
  - slamdesu 13y ago
    "So, you're saying that aside from skin colour, black and white people are exactly the same and, in a vacuum, the distribution of race in any given profession should be perfectly equal? You really believe that?" ^ It wasn't long ago that that type of claim was used often. Sexist views always have some sort of justification like "men and women ARE different!" or "men have a natural ability to think logically and are therefore more suited to programming". You forget that women basically made up most of the early programmers (see Ada Lovelace etc). I would recommend reading the book "Delusions of Gender" to get an overview over the "science" behind claiming that men and women are inherently different and to learn how all of those studies have proven flawed/heavily biased towards a premeditated conclusion.
    - paulwithap 13y ago
      You're right. Apples and oranges are basically the same thing. That book holds about the same scientific weight as 50 Shades of Grey. If you don't think there are inherent psychological differences between men and women, then you're just delusional.
auctiontheory 13y ago
You don't see anything like this in female-dominated professions. You absolutely do. K-8 teaching and psychotherapy come to mind. Anecdotally, the ratios are the inverse of what we see in tech. Men are in huge demand.
The_Double 13y ago
I for one would like more women in my CS classes. Right now the ratio is about 1:20, it fucks with your perspective on the world.
mcphilip 13y ago
Anecdotal evidence: I started off in nursing school with an intent to get a master's before ultimately finishing with CS. The nursing school I went to was well respected and made great efforts to make male students feel 'normal' in the female dominated area. They didn't aggressively recruit males at that point, but we were seen as valuable and worth including. I'd like to think that females could have a similar experience in CS degrees at some point.
- paulwithap 13y ago
  I absolutely agree with you. Obviously, no one should ever feel like they aren't welcome in a field because of their gender. I just don't see the point of making giant, obsessive efforts to push a group of people into a field and then patting ourselves on the back when our plan works, and we don't feel so guilty anymore.
  - vacri 13y ago
    The problem is that when nursing does things to make males feel welcome, female constituents pretty much all go "okay, cool". When software engineering does things to make females feel welcome, half the male constituents bleat endlessly about how unfair it is. Much of the noise made is this declaration of victimhood, and it's generally this noise that makes molehill efforts into 'giant obsessive' mountain issues.
wonderzombie 13y ago
Did you research this, or are you relying on casual observation? There's going to be heavy selection bias here if you're in the software industry but not involved in traditionally female-dominated professions. Anyway, if the shoe were on the other foot, as a male feminist I would be in favor of getting more men coding.
tbrownaw 13y ago
Because your stereotypical computer geek doesn't have the social skills to meet women who aren't also computer geeks? Because computer geeks don't push back hard enough against overtime requests (a social skills issue again), and so have a hard time meeting anyone they don't work with? Because unlike many jobs, much of computer programming also makes for good hobbies, so we spend a greater fraction of our time associating with like-minded people (and would like for said group to include women)? You don't see anything like this in female-dominated professions. But only because we're too insular to notice (again, a social skills issue).

marquis 13y ago

Yes, you do. Nursing: http://www.minoritynurse.com/tags/men-nursing http://www.minoritynurse.com/tags/men-nursing Teaching: http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/mar/23/advocates-say-schools-need-more-male/ http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/mar/23/advocates-say... ".. who bring a different perspective to the job, may connect better with some children and can provide positive male figures in their lives." Same goes for women in technology or any other misrepresented field.

paulwithap 13y ago
Yeah, those are reputable sources.
- marquis 13y ago
  I'm not maled so I google 'male advocacy' and picked what came up first. Want some equivalent sources on women? I can pick a few hundred off the top of my head. As a feminist I completely support such groups for men also in careers where women are over-representing.
  - cobrausn 13y ago
    How do you actually determine what is 'over-represented' and not just the result of individual agency en masse?
    - saraid216 13y ago
      Individual agency en masse should be a random distribution, which results in a proportionate representation within reasonable error margins. Not having this suggests that there's another factor besides individual agency factoring into decisions. It could be something acceptable, like men can't biologically give birth (yet), or it could be something unacceptable, like blacks being targeted by police solely on suspicion of race. This is one of the ways in which you recognize that something weird is going on with American politics. While it's a good thing to have lawyers in Congress, it's kinda weird that they're overwhelmingly lawyers.
      - nousernamesleft 13y ago
        >Individual agency en masse should be a random distribution What are you basing that assumption on? You are 100% certain that there is no possible way that men and women could have different preferences, priorities or interests?
        saraid216 13y ago
        A basic understanding of math, mostly.
        nousernamesleft 13y ago
        Shit, I guess I must have been sick the day we covered "men and women are statistically identical in all choices they make". Was that in calculus?
        saraid216 13y ago
        Why would they be statistically identical? I'm pretty sure I gave a specific example of how this wasn't true. Did you miss English class in addition to math class?
        nousernamesleft 13y ago
        You explicitly stated that any variation from a random distribution must be due to factors other than individual agency. But of course, you know that. How does someone whose posting history is almost entirely blatant trolling like that not manage to get banned more frequently?
        saraid216 13y ago
        Oh, I see. That's why you're on a throwaway. Cool.
      - cobrausn 13y ago
  - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
    I don't want to speak for the paulwithap, but it seems we're talking about the disproportionate amount of effort to get men into in careers where women are over-representing compared to the other way around. And also the disproportionate amount of criticism we give to members in that field when they don't. I'm all for anyone doing what ever job they feel like doing as long as they have the skills to do it. I don't even care if they only do it for the money as long as they do it well and don't mess it up for the rest of us.
    - marquis 13y ago
      My uncle lost his job recently as a factory worker and is retraining at the age of 50 to be an nurse aide. He wishes he'd trained as nurse but 30 years ago it was near impossible. Not every man wants to be a brain surgeon. And teachers? That has to be the MOST important group where we should absolutely have equal representation.
      - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
        > And teachers? That has to be the MOST important group where we should absolutely have equal representation. I would mostly agree with that. A lot of people probably would. But we don't see a huge number of "guys who teach" or "black guys teach" type programs popping up all over. We don't see article after article full of disdain for the "girls club" that is teaching. It is not just a gender thing. We don't see many "girls who drive trucks" programs either. I think it is some what of a phenomenon having such a large push to specifically get women into coding specifically. It just seems quite disproportionate. I'd like to see more push from other "one gender dominated" fields. [EDIT] Maybe there is and I just don't see it since I'm not in one of those other fields. Sounds like your uncle is finally realizing a desire he's had for many years. Best of luck to him.
        eropple 13y ago
        > we don't see a huge number of "guys who teach" or "black guys teach" type programs popping up all over You don't see a huge number of "girls code" programs, either, you just think you do because some of them have press and you're pretty deep in the culture of software development. Not a bad thing, mind you! But we have to keep in mind observational bias.
- justinsteele 13y ago
  Seemingly more reputable than your source; you.
- tzs 13y ago
  Their reputability is irrelevant to their effectiveness as counterexamples to your claim.
- vectorpush 13y ago
  You don't see anything like this in female-dominated professions. His post directly contradicts that statement, period. The supposed reputability of those sites are irrelevant, especially considering the basis for your own statement is the HN tech bubble.

MrZongle2 13y ago

Much of it is in response to publicized examples of sexist behavior in technical circles and personal anecdotes. That sort of behavior is not acceptable, and people are right to rally in favor of a workplace (and career field) that isn't biased in favor of one gender or another. I can get behind that cause. The remainder of it though, in my opinion, is a bouillabaisse of "it's never enough-ism" from a small group of hardcore feminists, hand-wringing from me-tooers, approval-seekers and undecideds, and some genuinely decent people who have nevertheless been hurt by specific cases of sexism and disproportionately react. It is cyclical. It is a well-intentioned cause, but many times it is myopic.

nicktelford 13y ago

I don't see it as specifically about "getting women coding", rather "addressing the gender bias". Given that approximately 50% of the population (and ~60% of the "educated" population) are women, it's abnormal for a sector to be so heavily male. This indicates that women are being discouraged, in some way, from entering the sector. Women who might otherwise have contributed a great deal to our industry. Think of it more about (nearly) doubling the potential number of excellent software engineers than about "encouraging women to code".

paulwithap 13y ago
So, you're saying that aside from genitalia, men and women are exactly the same and, in a vacuum, the distribution of genders in any given profession should be perfectly equal? You really believe that?
- slamdesu 13y ago
  "So, you're saying that aside from skin colour, black and white people are exactly the same and, in a vacuum, the distribution of race in any given profession should be perfectly equal? You really believe that?" ^ It wasn't long ago that that type of claim was used often. Sexist views always have some sort of justification like "men and women ARE different!" or "men have a natural ability to think logically and are therefore more suited to programming". You forget that women basically made up most of the early programmers (see Ada Lovelace etc). I would recommend reading the book "Delusions of Gender" to get an overview over the "science" behind claiming that men and women are inherently different and to learn how all of those studies have proven flawed/heavily biased towards a premeditated conclusion.
  - paulwithap 13y ago
    You're right. Apples and oranges are basically the same thing. That book holds about the same scientific weight as 50 Shades of Grey. If you don't think there are inherent psychological differences between men and women, then you're just delusional.

auctiontheory 13y ago

You don't see anything like this in female-dominated professions. You absolutely do. K-8 teaching and psychotherapy come to mind. Anecdotally, the ratios are the inverse of what we see in tech. Men are in huge demand.

The_Double 13y ago

I for one would like more women in my CS classes. Right now the ratio is about 1:20, it fucks with your perspective on the world.

mcphilip 13y ago

Anecdotal evidence: I started off in nursing school with an intent to get a master's before ultimately finishing with CS. The nursing school I went to was well respected and made great efforts to make male students feel 'normal' in the female dominated area. They didn't aggressively recruit males at that point, but we were seen as valuable and worth including. I'd like to think that females could have a similar experience in CS degrees at some point.

paulwithap 13y ago
I absolutely agree with you. Obviously, no one should ever feel like they aren't welcome in a field because of their gender. I just don't see the point of making giant, obsessive efforts to push a group of people into a field and then patting ourselves on the back when our plan works, and we don't feel so guilty anymore.
- vacri 13y ago
  The problem is that when nursing does things to make males feel welcome, female constituents pretty much all go "okay, cool". When software engineering does things to make females feel welcome, half the male constituents bleat endlessly about how unfair it is. Much of the noise made is this declaration of victimhood, and it's generally this noise that makes molehill efforts into 'giant obsessive' mountain issues.

wonderzombie 13y ago

Did you research this, or are you relying on casual observation? There's going to be heavy selection bias here if you're in the software industry but not involved in traditionally female-dominated professions. Anyway, if the shoe were on the other foot, as a male feminist I would be in favor of getting more men coding.

tbrownaw 13y ago

Because your stereotypical computer geek doesn't have the social skills to meet women who aren't also computer geeks? Because computer geeks don't push back hard enough against overtime requests (a social skills issue again), and so have a hard time meeting anyone they don't work with? Because unlike many jobs, much of computer programming also makes for good hobbies, so we spend a greater fraction of our time associating with like-minded people (and would like for said group to include women)? You don't see anything like this in female-dominated professions. But only because we're too insular to notice (again, a social skills issue).