8 ms·

Vancouver is a real city. Seattle is provincial, passive-aggressive, unfriendly to outsiders, and segregated. A hick town with skyscrapers as I've often called

Vancouver is a real city. Seattle is provincial, passive-aggressive, unfriendly to outsiders, and segregated. A hick town with skyscrapers as I've often called it. Californians who've moved there almost unanimously agree with my first sentence, and crack up at the latter. (Sadly, I lived in Seattle for 17 years. The Bay Area before that, and New York now.)

taude 13y ago
Totally agree with you 110% on the passive-aggressive thing. I've been on east coast now (Boston) for about 16 years. I've grown to appreciate knowing where I stand with people.
stephencanon 13y ago
Seeing as California is extraordinarily passive-aggressive (from a New Englander’s perspective), that really says something.
- kenjackson 13y ago
  Where aren't people passive aggressive? No where I've ever been.
  - stephencanon 13y ago
    There are passive-aggressive people everywhere, but it is especially prevalent on the west coast. There’s an old cartoon that sums it up perfectly, comparing New York and LA: the New Yorker is shown to be thinking “I love you, man” but saying “fuck you!”. For the Angelino it's the opposite.
- georgemcbay 13y ago
  As someone who lived his first 22 years in the metro Boston area but has lived in various parts of California for something like 16 years, I'd argue that it is impossible to paint "California" with such a wide brush. I live in San Diego and it is very different here than in LA or the SF Bay Area (with each of those also being very distinct from each other).
  - stephencanon 13y ago
    The various parts of CA are, as you say, quite different from one another, but they are all extremely passive-aggressive compared to the North East.
  - nostrademons 13y ago
    SF Bay Area is also too broad a brush - SF is very different from San Jose, and a number of other regions (Peninsula, Mountain View/Palo Alto, Berkeley, Woodside/Saratoga/Atherton/Los Gatos/Los Altos Hills) all have distinct cultures as well. I'd argue that MV/PA is actually closer to Boston culturally than to SF.
- vidoc 13y ago
  Being from Europe, I can only confirm that people in the Bay Area are in fact, incredibly passive-aggressive. The first few years I must admit that I felt like living on Mars. Even-though I'm coming from a "western" country whose lifestyle and tradition are somewhat similar, the cultural gap was actually much bigger than say, with Indians or Latinos. At work for example, it took me a rather long time to understand the real meanings of "I'm not sure" which means 'no' or "interesting" which means more or less that what you said is stupid. Not to mention being asked 200-times a day how I am doing or whether I found everything I was looking for at wholefood. Yep, people in this region have an imperial need to "be nice", at least on the surface and it can feel Orwellian at times if you are not used to it, especially on those days of bad mood. I think in Thailand they call that "sweet mouth, salty butt". But hey, that's also a huge plus, since it prevents a lot of bad vibes and unneeded frictions. I believe it's just a societal organization. Sometimes I go back to my country for work, and over there people's number one characteristic is distrust and indifference, and I can guarantee you that I feel like a foreigner over there now - well, on normal days, because if I happen to be in a bad mood, I'm kind of showing signs of Tourette syndrome and want to punch everybody. Overall, I think I'm mixing well in the Bay Area. And more importantly, most of my friends and relatives who share those character traits do tolerate that some foreigners like me don't necessarily think and act the same way. And frankly, wouldn't the world be boring if people were the same everywhere ?
  - twic 13y ago
    As an Englishman, i have found this whole thread about the cultural differences up and down the west coast somewhat fascinating. What i'm missing is a cross-reference to the European scale of societies. I live in London, where we don't speak to our neighbours or make eye contact on the tube; would i actually be more comfortable in Seattle than San Francisco? Or would it be over the top, like being in Sweden or something? Or is the variation along a completely different axis?
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      You'd probably like San Francisco more; I rode Caltrain daily and never had one social interaction onboard. The same wasn't true in Seattle.
goldenchrome 13y ago
What makes you say that?
haberman 13y ago
> Vancouver is a real city. That's not very nice. > Seattle is provincial, passive-aggressive, unfriendly to outsiders, and segregated. A hick town with skyscrapers as I've often called it. Sorry you didn't enjoy it here. Every city has its ups and downs, but a lot of people (myself included) love it. It's beautiful, we are surrounded by nature, we have the best summers of anywhere I've ever been, I find the people friendly (if a bit passive), there's a great classical music scene (this is how I spend my time), a great university in the middle of the city, lots of tech employment opportunities, a housing market that isn't insane. I like SF and New York (and Vancouver!) a lot, but they have their own problems too.
- ulfw 13y ago
  I must say I had a wonderful time in Seattle. I found the people a ton more friendly, approachable and varied than in the Bay Area, where everyone is just interested in 'networking' with you rather than befriending you. Plus Seattle has absolutely stunning nature. I didn't stay because of the grey skis. Couldn't take it.
  - mryingster 13y ago
    Then buy skis that are a different color ;) Just kidding. But I understand your sentiment. The grey skies wouldn't bother me at all, but my wife would not be able to stand it. We live in a sunny climate, and every day that is overcast she tells me how depressed it makes her feel... Some people just need sunshine!
  - eevilspock 13y ago
    I've been away from the Bay Area a long time. I don't doubt it is now how you describe it, but it wasn't that way before hi-tech startup culture started taking over. Seattle is slowly getting more friendly and less provincial. Maybe one day it will be better than the Bay Area, but unlikely because the same forces that are messing with the Bay Area are messing with Seattle (and New York) too. New York has closed itself off to the young and the struggling. But there are other cities. Detroit. Poughkeepsie. New York City has been taken away from you. So my advice is: Find a new city. – Patti Smith on whether New York is still good for artists.
hashberry 13y ago
C'mon troll, Seattle is where people go to make money. Seattle's tech industry beats Vancouver any day.
- tobyjsullivan 13y ago
  Times are changing my friend. Who would I go work for in Seattle to "make money" (if that were actually my primary goal)? Amazon? In Vancouver now. Microsoft? In Vancouver now. Facebook? In Vancouver now. Startups? Vancouver has our share. Personally, if I were going to leave the country for a better tech industry, I'd fly right past Seattle and head further south. Sorry, but Seattle just doesn't make sense if you're not already there.
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    I grew up in Vancouver, lived in Seattle for two years, and agree with all the digs about passive-aggression and the such. And while Vancouver's tech scene is rising, you should really stop by Seattle some time and see how wide the gap really is, and how far Vancouver has to go to even be within the same league as Seattle when it comes to tech employment. > "Amazon? In Vancouver now. Microsoft? In Vancouver now. Facebook? In Vancouver now." Amazon is the only real dev office out of those. Microsoft and Facebook are waiting rooms for Canadian citizenship to permit easier access to the US. It's funny how often these exact companies are trotted out in defense of Vancouver's tech industry when considering why these offices exist in the first place (tip: it's not to access Vancouver's existing tech talent). > "Sorry, but Seattle just doesn't make sense if you're not already there." I don't like the city much at all, but where else can a fresh CS undergrad fetch a $100K+ offer without paying $2K a month for a dingy studio apartment? Vancouver's rental market just as expensive as Seattle, and salaries far, far lower. The tech industry gets better the further south you go along the west coast. Vancouver is not an exception to this rule.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      The tech industry gets better the further south you go along the west coast To a point.
zem 13y ago
anecdata: my sister lives in los angeles, and her company once posted her to their seattle office for a few months. her impression was that it was an extremely white city; that might not be the sort of thing that strikes you if you're white yourself, but coming from california it would definitely reinforce the provincial impression.
- mikestew 13y ago
  > that might not be the sort of thing that strikes you if you're white yourself Oh, it struck this Midwestern white boy almost as soon as he got off the plane. I mean, I'd heard the phrase "white bread neighborhood" and always took it to mean there's only a few non-white people living there. No, in Seattle (and Redmond, where I live) entire neighborhoods can be comprised of nothing but white folk. I notice because I grew up in and around Indianapolis (with brief stints in Detroit). 20% black population in Indy (I could be off by a bit) means 1 out of 5 people I work with, buy groceries from, pass on the street, whatever, are black (ratio of friends was a bit lower than 20%). Now drop me in Redmond/Seattle where I rarely see a black person, and it's just...weird. I mentioned this to natives, and they acted like it was the most racist thing they'd ever heard. What, you thought I wouldn't notice that Bellevue's black population is 0.9%?
  - taopao 13y ago
    Bellevue: "more than 40 percent of its population a minority race or ethnicity in 2010." (https://www.bellevuewa.gov/demographics.htm https://www.bellevuewa.gov/demographics.htm) Redmond: 20% nonwhite (http://redmond.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm http://redmond.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm) Blacks are certainly underrepresented, I'll give you that, but everybody's talking as if African Americans are the only minority that counts... because it is a convenient strawman for propping up their arguments about the "whiteness", I suppose.
    - mikestew 13y ago
      I only use black because that's the only diversity one was likely to find in Indianapolis when I lived there. I'd believe the Bellevue stats, given the population around Crossroads Mall if nothing else. As for Redmond, maybe I need to get out more. Mentally touring my street and thinking of the race of the residents I know of, I'm coming up with only the Chinese family that lives across the street from us. I think the Indian family on the corner moved out a while ago. Granted, an anecdotal survey of my neighborhood and my general impression does not hard data make. But that's where I'm coming from.
sharkweek 13y ago
Seattle is my favorite place in the entire world. People always complain about the "freeze" but I call bullshit. Seattle is the perfect place for people who enjoy a small social circle (Larry David style - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG_M73MoxJE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG_M73MoxJE) The one thing I always tell outsiders when they ask about finding friends when they move here is to pick an interest and go from there. For example, I love hiking/climbing. I joined a climbing gym and found a few great friends with that in common. People here aren't outwardly friendly to strangers, but find a commonality and go from there, it's super effective.
- Haywain 13y ago
  > People always complain about the "freeze" but I call bullshit. I have been living in Seattle just over a year now. Maybe I've yet to get the full experience, but I have to say that after being warned about "the freeze" I've found nearly every person I've met here to be incredibly calm, warm, friendly and inviting. To compare, I previously lived in NYC and DC-Metro area... both of which I found to be riddled with many more rude and unwelcoming people. In NYC about the nicest thing you'll ever see someone do is give up their spot on the train. Other than that, you'll be snarled at for nearly anything else.
- eevilspock 13y ago
  > People always complain about the "freeze" but I call bullshit. First, some humor: http://lifeexplained.thecomicseries.com/comics/62/ http://lifeexplained.thecomicseries.com/comics/62/ Now, some serious (as it was while I lived there, but funny now that I've escaped), all from Seattle newspapers: But the dichotomy most fundamental to our collective civic character is this: Polite but distant. Have a nice day. Somewhere else. [1] Your city is a lovely one, and people here are nice enough when you come into contact with them in such circumstances as a retail transaction or participation in a mutually held-interest group. However, there is an unmistakable coolness exuded by many inhabitants of this city toward people they don't know; it exceeds what I would consider "normal." [2] Seattle public radio: while people here are “open” to new ideas, we’re just near the bottom of the states for being extroverted. Sociologist Jodi O’Brien at Seattle University added that this group relies heavily on digital devices to communicate which means they are losing the ability to simply hang out and talk. “If you email something I don’t like, I can scream at the computer, but I don’t have to interact with you. The more we can do that, the less inclined we are to engage in the messy social world.” [3] Seattle Freeze: Can we blame it on the Norwegians? ...and there is even a meet-up group working to defeat it, the Seattle Anti-Freeze. [4] Turns out that while Seattle has lots of romantic settings and events – the people themselves aren’t thought to be very romantic.[5] In a poll on that same Seattle newspaper blog, 80% of the readers say that the Seattle Freeze is very real and/or awesome. A slideshow of ways of dealing with the freeze agrees more or less with your advice to pick an interest and go from there. [1] http://seattletimes.com/pacificnw/2005/0213/cover.html http://seattletimes.com/pacificnw/2005/0213/cover.html [2] http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/northwestvoices/2009/01/22/the_seattle_freeze.html http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/northwestvoices/2009/0... [3] http://www.kpluwonders.org/content/why-seattle-freeze-so-hard-melt http://www.kpluwonders.org/content/why-seattle-freeze-so-har... [4] http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2012/12/04/seattle-freeze-can-we-blame-it-on-the-norwegians/ http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2012/12/04/seattle-fre... [5] http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2013/02/12/‘seattle-freeze’-chills-our-story-on-romantic-seattle http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2013/02/12/‘seattle-fre...
ulfw 13y ago
Why do you live there for SEVENTEEN years if you find it that shitty? You only live once, you know. You deserve to be happy.
- eevilspock 13y ago
  ex-wife. 'nuf said.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
benched 13y ago
Seattle 8 years. Sadly I have to agree wholeheartedly with this, because I've been unable to find much contrary evidence. The 'Freeze', which is deservedly famous, is very, very real, no matter how many people try to minimize its reality. Go ahead, come here - it's on display every second of every day in every cubic meter of the city. The only people who will make eye contact or speak a word to you are the homeless - I'm unable to decide whether this is because their livelihood depends on it, because they've transcended excessive self-involvement, or both. People are passive-passive, extremely unfriendly. It's like everyone is playing a private success-seeking game in their head, never really showing their cards, but presenting a cultivated image. Yes, of course in 8 years I have met some awesome people here and there (and I'm not saying the rest aren't awesome, but they aren't sharing). Yet there is also a persistent shallowness and aloofness even to a lot of my friendships that I can't seem to crack sometimes. And yes, very segregated. Scavenger hunt: find one black person on the Eastside. It might take you days. No idea what to blame for that, but it's true. I liked the snowboarding, and I liked working at MS for less than half the time I spent there, but I'm definitely looking into relocating at this point. (For reference, I'm from Boston, where I assert that people generally say what they mean or what's at the front of their mind, instead of what's faultlessly polite or strategically advantageous.)
- overgryphon 13y ago
  Perhaps if all of your friendships are shallow and aloof, a change of city wouldn't solve your problem? I love Seattle, and do not find people here passive or unfriendly.
  - toomim 13y ago
    Some people (like you) don't see it, but that doesn't mean the phenomena doesn't exist. Why would you think it has a common name -- the seattle freeze -- if it was a problem isolated to these two individuals?
  - benched 13y ago
    Well, there is that deep well of unjustified fear and hatred I've stored up in my heart. I wasn't going to mention it, because I was worried it might undermine my credibility.
BlackDeath3 13y ago
>A hick town with skyscrapers as I've often called it. Something tells me that you've never met "hick".
- eevilspock 13y ago
  I grew up in a farm town.
  - BlackDeath3 13y ago
    You'll forgive me if I have trouble believing that, given that you consider Seattle to be "hick".
    - eevilspock 13y ago
      Dude, I'm obviously speaking hyperbolically, i.e. rhetorically. Relative to any big city with cosmopolitan aspirations, it is a hick town. The number of coworkers I had there who owned rifles and hunted, who drove pickup trucks, who brewed their own beer, who had difficulty with non-Americanized ethnic food puts it a lot closer to a small town than to cities like San Francisco, Chicago or New York.
      - BlackDeath3 13y ago
        Sure, from a very sheltered perspective, it's quite "hick". I'll accept that.
      - jff 13y ago
        > The number of coworkers I had there who owned rifles and hunted, who drove pickup trucks, who brewed their own beer These sound like really good coworkers actually.
qdog 13y ago
My impression of Seattle while living there was that it wants to be Manhattan, except that cars will stop to let you cross the street. "Looking to be metropolitan" I guess is how I would phrase it. Wasn't really what I was looking for, but it was an interesting stay for a while. I don't know what is more real about Vancouver, other than the newer part of downtown, I found it to be a sprawling mess just like your average US big city. Richmond was heavily Asian, Surrey seemed to have the heavier crime, and Burnaby was more suburban. The weather in California is certainly better on average, though, I'll say that. Except for the cost of living, I'd almost assuredly go there, myself.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
It's really because we (seattlites) just don't like Californians very much; they are turned on all the time, shifty, and drive super aggressively. Makes sense that he feeling would be mutual (e.g. Too passive, naive, and drive super cautiously). This was a real thing in the 90s at least.
- groovylick 13y ago
  As a born and raised Californian that has visited Seattle via car a few times, I agree completely about our driving habits. There is a reason we drive that way though, it's out of necessity. Our traffic is heavy and drivers are very self-centered so the only way to get anywhere is to be aggressive and take space and position or someone else will. Personally I preferred the driver's mentality of the northwest and once I had been there a few days I drove much more like them since it was so refreshing to not have to not be in the take and defend mindset. Plus when you want to speed they get out of the way well in advance which is awesome when you're in a hurry.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    I've heard many Californian transplants complain about Seattle drivers being so timid, and it really is true we can't drive when it is raining, snowy, or sunny (too much glare).
mcantelon 13y ago
>provincial, passive-aggressive, unfriendly to outsiders, and segregated Vancouver isn't?
webwright 13y ago
Unfriendly to outsiders? I moved to Seattle from Alaska when I was 32 (I knew no one here and grew up near DC). 7 years later, I'm buried in friends. I play ultimate with a group of awesome folks twice a week, touch football once a week with another group, and bump into all sorts of friendly faces at tech meetups. People seems broadly friendly compared to most cities. I'll agree that folks are less confrontational than the east coast, which translates to more passive aggression (but certainly less OVERALL aggression than east coast cities). As far as "hick town"... Seattle is literally the most educated city in the US. It legalized gay marriage and pot before almost anyone else. I don't understand what you mean by "hick"... I guess we do have a lot of plaid.

taude 13y ago

Totally agree with you 110% on the passive-aggressive thing. I've been on east coast now (Boston) for about 16 years. I've grown to appreciate knowing where I stand with people.

stephencanon 13y ago

Seeing as California is extraordinarily passive-aggressive (from a New Englander’s perspective), that really says something.

kenjackson 13y ago
Where aren't people passive aggressive? No where I've ever been.
- stephencanon 13y ago
  There are passive-aggressive people everywhere, but it is especially prevalent on the west coast. There’s an old cartoon that sums it up perfectly, comparing New York and LA: the New Yorker is shown to be thinking “I love you, man” but saying “fuck you!”. For the Angelino it's the opposite.
georgemcbay 13y ago
As someone who lived his first 22 years in the metro Boston area but has lived in various parts of California for something like 16 years, I'd argue that it is impossible to paint "California" with such a wide brush. I live in San Diego and it is very different here than in LA or the SF Bay Area (with each of those also being very distinct from each other).
- stephencanon 13y ago
  The various parts of CA are, as you say, quite different from one another, but they are all extremely passive-aggressive compared to the North East.
- nostrademons 13y ago
  SF Bay Area is also too broad a brush - SF is very different from San Jose, and a number of other regions (Peninsula, Mountain View/Palo Alto, Berkeley, Woodside/Saratoga/Atherton/Los Gatos/Los Altos Hills) all have distinct cultures as well. I'd argue that MV/PA is actually closer to Boston culturally than to SF.
vidoc 13y ago
Being from Europe, I can only confirm that people in the Bay Area are in fact, incredibly passive-aggressive. The first few years I must admit that I felt like living on Mars. Even-though I'm coming from a "western" country whose lifestyle and tradition are somewhat similar, the cultural gap was actually much bigger than say, with Indians or Latinos. At work for example, it took me a rather long time to understand the real meanings of "I'm not sure" which means 'no' or "interesting" which means more or less that what you said is stupid. Not to mention being asked 200-times a day how I am doing or whether I found everything I was looking for at wholefood. Yep, people in this region have an imperial need to "be nice", at least on the surface and it can feel Orwellian at times if you are not used to it, especially on those days of bad mood. I think in Thailand they call that "sweet mouth, salty butt". But hey, that's also a huge plus, since it prevents a lot of bad vibes and unneeded frictions. I believe it's just a societal organization. Sometimes I go back to my country for work, and over there people's number one characteristic is distrust and indifference, and I can guarantee you that I feel like a foreigner over there now - well, on normal days, because if I happen to be in a bad mood, I'm kind of showing signs of Tourette syndrome and want to punch everybody. Overall, I think I'm mixing well in the Bay Area. And more importantly, most of my friends and relatives who share those character traits do tolerate that some foreigners like me don't necessarily think and act the same way. And frankly, wouldn't the world be boring if people were the same everywhere ?
- twic 13y ago
  As an Englishman, i have found this whole thread about the cultural differences up and down the west coast somewhat fascinating. What i'm missing is a cross-reference to the European scale of societies. I live in London, where we don't speak to our neighbours or make eye contact on the tube; would i actually be more comfortable in Seattle than San Francisco? Or would it be over the top, like being in Sweden or something? Or is the variation along a completely different axis?
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    You'd probably like San Francisco more; I rode Caltrain daily and never had one social interaction onboard. The same wasn't true in Seattle.

goldenchrome 13y ago

What makes you say that?

haberman 13y ago

> Vancouver is a real city. That's not very nice. > Seattle is provincial, passive-aggressive, unfriendly to outsiders, and segregated. A hick town with skyscrapers as I've often called it. Sorry you didn't enjoy it here. Every city has its ups and downs, but a lot of people (myself included) love it. It's beautiful, we are surrounded by nature, we have the best summers of anywhere I've ever been, I find the people friendly (if a bit passive), there's a great classical music scene (this is how I spend my time), a great university in the middle of the city, lots of tech employment opportunities, a housing market that isn't insane. I like SF and New York (and Vancouver!) a lot, but they have their own problems too.

ulfw 13y ago
I must say I had a wonderful time in Seattle. I found the people a ton more friendly, approachable and varied than in the Bay Area, where everyone is just interested in 'networking' with you rather than befriending you. Plus Seattle has absolutely stunning nature. I didn't stay because of the grey skis. Couldn't take it.
- mryingster 13y ago
  Then buy skis that are a different color ;) Just kidding. But I understand your sentiment. The grey skies wouldn't bother me at all, but my wife would not be able to stand it. We live in a sunny climate, and every day that is overcast she tells me how depressed it makes her feel... Some people just need sunshine!
- eevilspock 13y ago
  I've been away from the Bay Area a long time. I don't doubt it is now how you describe it, but it wasn't that way before hi-tech startup culture started taking over. Seattle is slowly getting more friendly and less provincial. Maybe one day it will be better than the Bay Area, but unlikely because the same forces that are messing with the Bay Area are messing with Seattle (and New York) too. New York has closed itself off to the young and the struggling. But there are other cities. Detroit. Poughkeepsie. New York City has been taken away from you. So my advice is: Find a new city. – Patti Smith on whether New York is still good for artists.

hashberry 13y ago

C'mon troll, Seattle is where people go to make money. Seattle's tech industry beats Vancouver any day.

tobyjsullivan 13y ago
Times are changing my friend. Who would I go work for in Seattle to "make money" (if that were actually my primary goal)? Amazon? In Vancouver now. Microsoft? In Vancouver now. Facebook? In Vancouver now. Startups? Vancouver has our share. Personally, if I were going to leave the country for a better tech industry, I'd fly right past Seattle and head further south. Sorry, but Seattle just doesn't make sense if you're not already there.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  I grew up in Vancouver, lived in Seattle for two years, and agree with all the digs about passive-aggression and the such. And while Vancouver's tech scene is rising, you should really stop by Seattle some time and see how wide the gap really is, and how far Vancouver has to go to even be within the same league as Seattle when it comes to tech employment. > "Amazon? In Vancouver now. Microsoft? In Vancouver now. Facebook? In Vancouver now." Amazon is the only real dev office out of those. Microsoft and Facebook are waiting rooms for Canadian citizenship to permit easier access to the US. It's funny how often these exact companies are trotted out in defense of Vancouver's tech industry when considering why these offices exist in the first place (tip: it's not to access Vancouver's existing tech talent). > "Sorry, but Seattle just doesn't make sense if you're not already there." I don't like the city much at all, but where else can a fresh CS undergrad fetch a $100K+ offer without paying $2K a month for a dingy studio apartment? Vancouver's rental market just as expensive as Seattle, and salaries far, far lower. The tech industry gets better the further south you go along the west coast. Vancouver is not an exception to this rule.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    The tech industry gets better the further south you go along the west coast To a point.

zem 13y ago

anecdata: my sister lives in los angeles, and her company once posted her to their seattle office for a few months. her impression was that it was an extremely white city; that might not be the sort of thing that strikes you if you're white yourself, but coming from california it would definitely reinforce the provincial impression.

mikestew 13y ago
> that might not be the sort of thing that strikes you if you're white yourself Oh, it struck this Midwestern white boy almost as soon as he got off the plane. I mean, I'd heard the phrase "white bread neighborhood" and always took it to mean there's only a few non-white people living there. No, in Seattle (and Redmond, where I live) entire neighborhoods can be comprised of nothing but white folk. I notice because I grew up in and around Indianapolis (with brief stints in Detroit). 20% black population in Indy (I could be off by a bit) means 1 out of 5 people I work with, buy groceries from, pass on the street, whatever, are black (ratio of friends was a bit lower than 20%). Now drop me in Redmond/Seattle where I rarely see a black person, and it's just...weird. I mentioned this to natives, and they acted like it was the most racist thing they'd ever heard. What, you thought I wouldn't notice that Bellevue's black population is 0.9%?
- taopao 13y ago
  Bellevue: "more than 40 percent of its population a minority race or ethnicity in 2010." (https://www.bellevuewa.gov/demographics.htm https://www.bellevuewa.gov/demographics.htm) Redmond: 20% nonwhite (http://redmond.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm http://redmond.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm) Blacks are certainly underrepresented, I'll give you that, but everybody's talking as if African Americans are the only minority that counts... because it is a convenient strawman for propping up their arguments about the "whiteness", I suppose.
  - mikestew 13y ago
    I only use black because that's the only diversity one was likely to find in Indianapolis when I lived there. I'd believe the Bellevue stats, given the population around Crossroads Mall if nothing else. As for Redmond, maybe I need to get out more. Mentally touring my street and thinking of the race of the residents I know of, I'm coming up with only the Chinese family that lives across the street from us. I think the Indian family on the corner moved out a while ago. Granted, an anecdotal survey of my neighborhood and my general impression does not hard data make. But that's where I'm coming from.

sharkweek 13y ago

Seattle is my favorite place in the entire world. People always complain about the "freeze" but I call bullshit. Seattle is the perfect place for people who enjoy a small social circle (Larry David style - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG_M73MoxJE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG_M73MoxJE) The one thing I always tell outsiders when they ask about finding friends when they move here is to pick an interest and go from there. For example, I love hiking/climbing. I joined a climbing gym and found a few great friends with that in common. People here aren't outwardly friendly to strangers, but find a commonality and go from there, it's super effective.

Haywain 13y ago
> People always complain about the "freeze" but I call bullshit. I have been living in Seattle just over a year now. Maybe I've yet to get the full experience, but I have to say that after being warned about "the freeze" I've found nearly every person I've met here to be incredibly calm, warm, friendly and inviting. To compare, I previously lived in NYC and DC-Metro area... both of which I found to be riddled with many more rude and unwelcoming people. In NYC about the nicest thing you'll ever see someone do is give up their spot on the train. Other than that, you'll be snarled at for nearly anything else.
eevilspock 13y ago
> People always complain about the "freeze" but I call bullshit. First, some humor: http://lifeexplained.thecomicseries.com/comics/62/ http://lifeexplained.thecomicseries.com/comics/62/ Now, some serious (as it was while I lived there, but funny now that I've escaped), all from Seattle newspapers: But the dichotomy most fundamental to our collective civic character is this: Polite but distant. Have a nice day. Somewhere else. [1] Your city is a lovely one, and people here are nice enough when you come into contact with them in such circumstances as a retail transaction or participation in a mutually held-interest group. However, there is an unmistakable coolness exuded by many inhabitants of this city toward people they don't know; it exceeds what I would consider "normal." [2] Seattle public radio: while people here are “open” to new ideas, we’re just near the bottom of the states for being extroverted. Sociologist Jodi O’Brien at Seattle University added that this group relies heavily on digital devices to communicate which means they are losing the ability to simply hang out and talk. “If you email something I don’t like, I can scream at the computer, but I don’t have to interact with you. The more we can do that, the less inclined we are to engage in the messy social world.” [3] Seattle Freeze: Can we blame it on the Norwegians? ...and there is even a meet-up group working to defeat it, the Seattle Anti-Freeze. [4] Turns out that while Seattle has lots of romantic settings and events – the people themselves aren’t thought to be very romantic.[5] In a poll on that same Seattle newspaper blog, 80% of the readers say that the Seattle Freeze is very real and/or awesome. A slideshow of ways of dealing with the freeze agrees more or less with your advice to pick an interest and go from there. [1] http://seattletimes.com/pacificnw/2005/0213/cover.html http://seattletimes.com/pacificnw/2005/0213/cover.html [2] http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/northwestvoices/2009/01/22/the_seattle_freeze.html http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/northwestvoices/2009/0... [3] http://www.kpluwonders.org/content/why-seattle-freeze-so-hard-melt http://www.kpluwonders.org/content/why-seattle-freeze-so-har... [4] http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2012/12/04/seattle-freeze-can-we-blame-it-on-the-norwegians/ http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2012/12/04/seattle-fre... [5] http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2013/02/12/‘seattle-freeze’-chills-our-story-on-romantic-seattle http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2013/02/12/‘seattle-fre...

ulfw 13y ago

Why do you live there for SEVENTEEN years if you find it that shitty? You only live once, you know. You deserve to be happy.

eevilspock 13y ago
ex-wife. 'nuf said.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

benched 13y ago

Seattle 8 years. Sadly I have to agree wholeheartedly with this, because I've been unable to find much contrary evidence. The 'Freeze', which is deservedly famous, is very, very real, no matter how many people try to minimize its reality. Go ahead, come here - it's on display every second of every day in every cubic meter of the city. The only people who will make eye contact or speak a word to you are the homeless - I'm unable to decide whether this is because their livelihood depends on it, because they've transcended excessive self-involvement, or both. People are passive-passive, extremely unfriendly. It's like everyone is playing a private success-seeking game in their head, never really showing their cards, but presenting a cultivated image. Yes, of course in 8 years I have met some awesome people here and there (and I'm not saying the rest aren't awesome, but they aren't sharing). Yet there is also a persistent shallowness and aloofness even to a lot of my friendships that I can't seem to crack sometimes. And yes, very segregated. Scavenger hunt: find one black person on the Eastside. It might take you days. No idea what to blame for that, but it's true. I liked the snowboarding, and I liked working at MS for less than half the time I spent there, but I'm definitely looking into relocating at this point. (For reference, I'm from Boston, where I assert that people generally say what they mean or what's at the front of their mind, instead of what's faultlessly polite or strategically advantageous.)

overgryphon 13y ago
Perhaps if all of your friendships are shallow and aloof, a change of city wouldn't solve your problem? I love Seattle, and do not find people here passive or unfriendly.
- toomim 13y ago
  Some people (like you) don't see it, but that doesn't mean the phenomena doesn't exist. Why would you think it has a common name -- the seattle freeze -- if it was a problem isolated to these two individuals?
- benched 13y ago
  Well, there is that deep well of unjustified fear and hatred I've stored up in my heart. I wasn't going to mention it, because I was worried it might undermine my credibility.

BlackDeath3 13y ago

>A hick town with skyscrapers as I've often called it. Something tells me that you've never met "hick".

eevilspock 13y ago
I grew up in a farm town.
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  You'll forgive me if I have trouble believing that, given that you consider Seattle to be "hick".
  - eevilspock 13y ago
    Dude, I'm obviously speaking hyperbolically, i.e. rhetorically. Relative to any big city with cosmopolitan aspirations, it is a hick town. The number of coworkers I had there who owned rifles and hunted, who drove pickup trucks, who brewed their own beer, who had difficulty with non-Americanized ethnic food puts it a lot closer to a small town than to cities like San Francisco, Chicago or New York.
    - BlackDeath3 13y ago
      Sure, from a very sheltered perspective, it's quite "hick". I'll accept that.
    - jff 13y ago
      > The number of coworkers I had there who owned rifles and hunted, who drove pickup trucks, who brewed their own beer These sound like really good coworkers actually.

qdog 13y ago

My impression of Seattle while living there was that it wants to be Manhattan, except that cars will stop to let you cross the street. "Looking to be metropolitan" I guess is how I would phrase it. Wasn't really what I was looking for, but it was an interesting stay for a while. I don't know what is more real about Vancouver, other than the newer part of downtown, I found it to be a sprawling mess just like your average US big city. Richmond was heavily Asian, Surrey seemed to have the heavier crime, and Burnaby was more suburban. The weather in California is certainly better on average, though, I'll say that. Except for the cost of living, I'd almost assuredly go there, myself.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

It's really because we (seattlites) just don't like Californians very much; they are turned on all the time, shifty, and drive super aggressively. Makes sense that he feeling would be mutual (e.g. Too passive, naive, and drive super cautiously). This was a real thing in the 90s at least.

groovylick 13y ago
As a born and raised Californian that has visited Seattle via car a few times, I agree completely about our driving habits. There is a reason we drive that way though, it's out of necessity. Our traffic is heavy and drivers are very self-centered so the only way to get anywhere is to be aggressive and take space and position or someone else will. Personally I preferred the driver's mentality of the northwest and once I had been there a few days I drove much more like them since it was so refreshing to not have to not be in the take and defend mindset. Plus when you want to speed they get out of the way well in advance which is awesome when you're in a hurry.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  I've heard many Californian transplants complain about Seattle drivers being so timid, and it really is true we can't drive when it is raining, snowy, or sunny (too much glare).

mcantelon 13y ago

>provincial, passive-aggressive, unfriendly to outsiders, and segregated Vancouver isn't?

webwright 13y ago

Unfriendly to outsiders? I moved to Seattle from Alaska when I was 32 (I knew no one here and grew up near DC). 7 years later, I'm buried in friends. I play ultimate with a group of awesome folks twice a week, touch football once a week with another group, and bump into all sorts of friendly faces at tech meetups. People seems broadly friendly compared to most cities. I'll agree that folks are less confrontational than the east coast, which translates to more passive aggression (but certainly less OVERALL aggression than east coast cities). As far as "hick town"... Seattle is literally the most educated city in the US. It legalized gay marriage and pot before almost anyone else. I don't understand what you mean by "hick"... I guess we do have a lot of plaid.