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Valve DNS privacy flap exposes the murky world of cheat prevention
- venomsnake 13y agoAnd that is why a person should always run steam-likes in sandboxie or similar software.
- Kiro 13y agoNo.
- jsheard 13y agoI'm not sure if that would work. Steam installs a sudo-like system service, so it can update games in Program Files without nagging the user to elevate to admin. Depending how it's launched it might sneak past the scope of Sandboxie.
- mpeg 13y agoIt will, most anti-cheat software operate as a device driver so they have access to the WDK libraries. Valve isn't even the worst offender, some other anti-cheat will not allow you to run ANY virtualization software while the anti-cheat is active.
- est 13y agoNope. Sandboxie protects you from write operations, not from read or scanning.
- est 13y agoNope. Sandboxie protects you from write operations, not from read or scanning.
- JetSpiegel 13y agoWay to make a mountain out of a molehill. Oh, wait, it's Peter Bright, nothing to see here. Move along.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- koobarbara 13y agoThe funny thing about this whole ordeal is that never was it mentioned that the code sends these data anywhere.
- hedwall 13y agoIn the original reddit post linked to it was alleged that VAC sent the entries to Valve.
- koobarbara 13y agoSeveral posts said that the "sending" part was not seen in the code. The original cheat site didn't mention sending either.
- sp332 13y agoThis comment shows the data changing depending on your DNS entries https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7252068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7252068
- Dylan16807 13y agoNot enough samples.
- dmix 13y ago> What part of that decompiled source shows it sending the list back to their servers? > None http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1y0kc1/vac_now_reads_all_the_domains_you_have_visited/cfgobul http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1y0kc1/vac_...
- gruturo 13y agoGabe Newell himself gave a nice explanation in a related Reddit thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1y70ej/valve_vac_and_trust/ http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1y70ej/valve_vac_and...
- JetSpiegel 13y ago"This specific VAC test for this specific round of cheats was effective for 13 days, which is fairly typical. It is now no longer active as the cheat providers have worked around it by manipulating the DNS cache of their customers' client machines." Spooky
- shultays 13y agoWow, not because you know, privacy is important. Becase it is no longer effective
- JetSpiegel 13y agoIt's tested locally, Vavle doesn't get the DNS queries.
- AimHere 13y agoRight. Gabe isn't admitting to wrongdoing here, since Valve feels that the particular check was limited enough to be a reasonable countermeasure. According to Gabe, this module was not aimed at scraping anyone's web usage or browsing history (not even for game cheat sites), but just to detect whether a machine was likely to be automatically dialing a hack's DRM server, and then sending hashed copies of those, and only those, entries to Valve to flag as a potential cheat. I can imagine that a lot of the gaming community would consider that reasonable behaviour, if it was effective at cutting down on cheats. Whether Valve is telling the truth, I don't know. I suspect so (Gabe seems smart enough not to try lying to the internet, though, so any deception is likely to be that of omission). Whether this is right or wrong is a matter between you and your shaman/vicar/rabbi/mullah/conscience/etc.
- 13y ago
- TazeTSchnitzel 13y agoAnti-cheat systems are something I feel are a necessary evil. They're opaque, proprietary black boxes, but I'll accept them for the sake of myself and others having a more enjoyable gaming experience. > Cheat versus trust is an ongoing cat-and- mouse game. New cheats are created all the time, detected, banned, and tweaked. This specific VAC test for this specific round of cheats was effective for 13 days, which is fairly typical. It is now no longer active as the cheat providers have worked around it by manipulating the DNS cache of their customers' client machines. Damn.
- TheCapn 13y agoI get news of hacks irregularly from Reddit's CounterStrike community and I have to say, its a losing fight for systems like VAC that try their best to adhere to user rights of privacy. Certain hacks essentially hook themselves into your PC at the kernel level and are nigh indistinguishable through scans of any type. Anti-cheat are left with a set of heuristics that try to identify a hack based on behaviors that are easily manipulated and faked. VAC in particular is pretty rigorous in that they attempt for 0 false positives and have done pretty well overall. Some of the more recent anti-hack work involves recognizing pattern of commands sent from the client to detect when inhumane actions occur such as impossibly fast reactions or aim adjustments. The way I see it, hopefully this style of anti-cheat, although reactive, will prevent any hack from being useful as the advantage of using it is immediately taken away. Things like trigger hacks and wall hacks are still not yet detectable through these means but its a step in the right direction.
- zimbatm 13y agoIn minecraft some servers send fake blocks to the client until they are close enough and visible. That prevents hacker for looking for specific types of valuable blocks like chests and diamonds using x-rays. The drawback is that if the server doesn't send the updates fast enough you might think you've hit a diamond block until you get the update.
- gatehouse 13y agoI still play CS:S online on and off. The last resort is the server admin. If you play on a server with active admins they can take care of obvious cases. The game is cheap but it isn't free so even if someone has multiple account you'll get them all eventually.
- Shahidul1990 13y agoExcelent
- dmead 13y agoin case anyone is interested, one of the dominant cheat providers seems to be this: http://www.deadc0deshop.net/ http://www.deadc0deshop.net/ a cat and mouse game, but interesting nonetheless
- jsheard 13y agoOne of the most robust cheats is Organner[1], which is notable for running entirely in ring0 instead of using a ring0 protector for a ring3 hack. It costs $40 a month, and people seem to be happy to pay that. [1] http://www.organner.pl http://www.organner.pl
- dspillett 13y agoNo wonder the "free to play" market is growing so quickly, if people are genuinely that willing to pay to win (or in most cases I suspect, just to lose a bit less).
- dmead 13y agomaybe? i know in starcraft 2 there were several very good players who used cheats to claw their way to the very top of the ladder. but it's true that the vast majority of cheaters aren't very good. it just creates grief for most people who have to deal with it.
- gateaumoisi 13y agonote that visiting this website will just add your steam account to the vac watch list ;)
- mentos 13y agoWhat will we do when hackers set up a camera and a robot with rubber fingers to cheat in games? Reminds me of the story of Thomas Peterffy the 'father of high speed trading': "It wasn't until 1987 that Peterffy was able to take people out of the loop entirely. With the world's first electronic stock exchange, the NASDAQ terminal, traders could type in orders directly into a computer. Peterffy didn't want to type in the orders. He and his engineers hacked into the NASDAQ terminal and wired it up to their own computer, which traded automatically based on algorithms. A senior NASDAQ official saw Peterffy's setup and said Peterffy was breaking the rules: All orders had to be entered through the keyboard. He gave Petterfy's group one week to fix the problem. Peterffy and his engineers came up with a solution. They built a robot with rubber fingers that typed entries into the keyboard. It satisfied the NASDAQ rules. And on active trading days, the robot typed so fast it sounded like a machine gun."
- kibwen 13y agoThat's an interesting story, but not how these cheats operate. Most cheats either allow access to abilities that cannot be performed via normal keyboard input (flying, moving through walls, item duplication, instant LOS kills) or grant the cheater information not available to a normal player (wallhacks, maphacks). That said, it's fun to try to think of ways in which a robot reaching over your shoulder could somehow give you an unfair advantage... perfectly-timed bunny jumps, perhaps.
- comex 13y agoI think you're missing the big way - aimbots. You'd have to do some nice low latency computer vision to detect enemies, but it could theoretically be just as effective as a regular aimbot.
- Dylan16807 13y agoRegular aimbots use nonvisible information.
- belorn 13y agoSystem like this are walking a very thin line. > cheat software has its own DRM systems so that the developers can ensure that people pay for their cheats. If the VAC module detects certain cheats, it then checks to see if the system has performed lookups for the relevant cheat DRM servers. The program could also hijacked the users bank session in order to check if any payment has been made. This would have the same result on a technical basis as digging through users DNS history to see if the client has contacted a cheating tools DRM server. Is there any technical line that anti-cheat systems can't cross? I do like the gaming experience anti-cheat systems create, but at the same time, I would like that the OS prevented any program from accessing the DNS cache without my expressed and informed consent.
- UnoriginalGuy 13y ago> I would like that the OS prevented any program from accessing the DNS cache without my expressed and informed consent Not technically feasible. Even if the OS didn't allow direct access to the DNS cache, a program could very easily infer if a result was cached based on the query response speed. Plus anti-cheat typically runs as an administrator or root. > Is there any technical line that anti-cheat systems can't cross? Illegality for one. Stealing someone's banking session and monitoring their payments is almost certainly illegal, pulling up the DNS cache and seeing if they requested the IP for a choice domain is not.
- belorn 13y agoIs pulling up ones bank history and see if they include a choice transaction different from pulling up ones DNS history? If the intention is the same (preventing cheating), I don't know if a judge would rule different based on the technology used. Both techniques steals computer resources (CPU, memory and disk usages), and both steals private information in order to achieve their goal. Would you be sure that knowingly use a computer service (the dns cache) without authorization is legal? Or for that matter, is computer trespass illegal in general if done for the explicit purpose of anti-cheating? The law as described require "intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the commission of any felony". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_trespass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_trespass
- coldcode 13y agoCheating in MMO games is always a battle. I actually worked on a system for a game company I worked for. It had only a single cheat provider and I found a way to detect people using the cheat without being detected in turn. This is probably one of the hardest type of coding to do, you are blind as to what the cheat provider might do in the future, and they have to be really clever to hide what they are doing. This isn't DRM, this is making a game fair to all the players. Some players don't want to play the game fair and want to cheat, which never made sense to me as how is that fun. It's like robbing banks for money, why work like all the suckers who put their money in the bank? But if you work you want your money safe. I do admit it was a lot of fun and incredibly difficult coding to do, the cheat provider programmer was very clever. No clue if it still works today since I left a while ago. It was like military defense vs offense; each side keeps upping the ante and you have to respond. Oh and it was for Windows and custom code but not this.
- nousernamesleft 13y ago>Cheating in MMO games is always a battle Cheating in MMOGs isn't much of a battle. Do everything on the server: problem solved. Consider UO did this correctly in 1997 and yet games like WoW came out much later and still did it wrong (let the client choose its x,y,z position and tell the server, rather than asking the server "is it legal for me to move to x,y,z?"). It is faster paced games where you can't do everything server side that are the problem, first person shooters being the prime example.
- crazypyro 13y agoWoW has a demanding enough latency requirement. Same with DotA 2. Not to mention the server resources used.
- nousernamesleft 13y ago>WoW has a demanding enough latency requirement And yet ultima online proved that excuse was bogus before WoW ever existed.
- 13y ago
- kbar13 13y agoRemember when ESEA's anti-cheat implementation also had a bitcoin miner built into it? http://play.esea.net/index.php?s=esports&d=comments&id=12692 http://play.esea.net/index.php?s=esports&d=comments&id=12692
- nfoz 13y agoAm I the only one OK with "cheating"? The line between what is "tool assisted", "bot" etc. is entirely artificial, just like "no drugs" is artificial and awkward to deal with in sports. If you're spending $1000 on a fancy computer mouse with special buttons, I don't see why that's much different than if I code myself a smarter mouse driver that autosnaps to enemy faces. The intellectual exercise of botting is fantastic anyway, and I'd rather see my gamer friends doing that than playing the games vanilla ;) Online games require a gentleman's agreement about what is OK behaviour. Individual communities should be hosting their own game server instance and allowing people in that follow their friendly rules. The idea that I'm "not allowed" to "bot" a game is offensive to me in the way that "no reverse engineering" clauses in license agreements are offensive. I do love playing games, and don't normally bot anything (except netcraft this one time.. o_O), I concede there's a conflict here, but I err on the side of my personal liberty rather than convenience of playing games. I wish others would do the same...
- eddieroger 13y agoI don't have a problem with "cheating" in the sense you described it, but I want to know if I'm playing against people who are using it, and I appreciate the option to not play with those folks. When I sit down to TF2, I'm not looking to compete with the best reverse engineers, or the folks who throw the most money at their games (in the case of Valve mentioning buying hacks) - in fact, I'm not looking to compete at all. I just want to relax and have fun playing the game, and I can't if I'm being hacked to death.
- jsheard 13y agoYou have always been able to host Valve game servers with VAC disabled. If you want to play a game of "who has the variables on their hack set higher" without getting banned then knock yourself out.
- lost_name 13y agoI'm not sure how many games have done this, but the concept of the "cheater's island" came up somewhat recently -- I want to say Max Payne 3 did this first, but I'm not sure. Basically, players who have been detected as cheaters only end up with other players who cheat. The problem is once you're on the island, you're probably not getting out. I personally favor this solution over the outright banning of players.
- arca_vorago 13y agoMy reddit reply to GabeN got hellbanned... I want to see more data from more sources on where the check is done. Comment:"So you are saying that the tests people had done by bloating DNS and watching traffic that noticed a correlation are wrong, and only hashes that meet a list sent to the client are checked and sent back to Valve? Why would the data sent back to Valve increase on systems without cheats when nothing other than loading many DNS entries is different? Where is the check done?..."
- mariuolo 13y agoDoes it happen on the Linux version as well? Would running it in a LXC container mitigate that problem?