7 ms·

Skilled Immigrants on Why They're Leaving the U.S.

63 points by raju 17y ago

bwd 17y ago
Maybe Obama will be smart enough to start handing out green cards to anybody with an H1B who can hold a permanent position for two years. I'd much rather employ somebody who's motivated enough to leave their home country in search of opportunity.
- jimbokun 17y ago
  That helps you, but does it help Obama (assuming Obama's goal is to get re-elected) or the median U.S. voter?
  - mquander 17y ago
    In the long run, one might suspect that it helps most workers (being part of the economy in general) to have a larger pool of skilled labor doing productive work.
  - roc 17y ago
    Obama will be painted as weak-on-immigration by the right regardless. So there's no up-side to him ignoring the larger immigration problem or H1B in particular. (H1B should be a short path to a green card. Letting them be taken advantage of and then sending them home is a bad policy.)
- ajju 17y ago
  It's unlikely. Most democrats oppose this (protectionism) and many republicans oppose it as well (anti-immigration stance). It's lose-lose for immigrants.
  - bwd 17y ago
    Regardless of whether politicians "support" it, I expect that most of them know that it's really good for the country in the long term. That's why I said that I hope Obama, who's been all about change, will have the brains (and the balls) to actually do the right thing.
jimbokun 17y ago
'Senator Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), chairman of the Senate immigration subcommittee, said in June that U.S. policy will aim to "encourage the world's best and brightest individuals to come to the U.S. and create the new technologies and businesses…but must discourage businesses from using our immigration laws as a means to obtain temporary and less expensive foreign labor."' I'm curious for the opinion of Hacker News readers on Schumer's statement. Do you agree or disagree that this should be the goal for U.S. immigration policy? (and why)
- biohacker42 17y ago
  I'm not sure you can be for or against it, because it doesn't make much sense. How are you going to decide if a businesses is hiring the best or the cheaper? Isn't best a function of price? Aren't all business trying to maximize profits?
  - DrJokepu 17y ago
    A law prohibiting employers to hire foreigners for a salary under the median income of US citizen professionals of similar profession and experience in the same area would probably do it.
    - lutorm 17y ago
      There is such a law. H-1B holders must be paid "prevailing wage" for the positions they are being hired for.
- patio11 17y ago
  I'd sell Green Cards, with a portion of the fee going into a background check (more to buy off the Republican Party than anything else). I think about $50k is fair, but you could calibrate the number as desired. Heck, if you want, impose a quota, issue securities entitling the bearer to one green card, and then auction them like T-bills. Transferable or non-transferable, your call. This system is easy to understand, transparent, and offers certainty that the patchwork quilt of immigration statuses does not. You'd hear a lot less whinging from the nativist set if they were automatically $50k less expensive than the next guy. This would essentially eliminate any abuse of (legal) foreign labor, as employers would no longer hold any particular power over the fates of their employees, other than the usual ones accorded by contract law. (I can see Microsoft or whomever offering to foot the bill if they were guaranteed 3 years of service, and have absolutely no problem with that arrangement.) It would also be easier for desirable foreign laborers to interface with. Believe me, I can tell you from personal experience, NOTHING scares me like a routine visit to get my visa renewed. It is the only time when I am ever totally at the mercy of a clerk who has a Destroy My Life button on his computer. Folks trying to fit an extended stay in the US into their near-term life plans must have similar emotions. This would quiet them. Pay the license fee. Get the green card. Simple, easy, fullproof. Besides, you can essentially buy your way around immigration laws anyhow, so we might as well be honest about it.
nico 17y ago
I have a friend who studied Business (with a concentration on Entrepreneurship) at Notre Dame (2nd best in Business according to BusinessWeek). While at Notre Dame he could not get decent internships at big companies because these companies either had a policy to not hire foreigners (at least not for internships), or because it was such a hassle that they'd rather not. Many of those companies were also in the process of shutting down their "immigration departments" because it's become increasingly difficult to get visas for their foreign workers, hence for them it's pretty much like playing the lottery when they apply for an H1B visa for one of their workers, and having dedicated staff for this very uncertain process is a big cost. While finishing school, my friend was unable to secure a job with any company, he had an offer from PWC, but it was finally withdrawn, while his friends were hired. At the end he decided coming back to Chile, where he now has a job at one of the top VCs in the country. This is only one case, but I think it represents what a lot of immigrants in the US have been experiencing.
- kragen 17y ago
  In the US it is supposed to be illegal to discriminate in hiring on the basis of national origin, which sometimes prohibits discrimination on the basis of citizenship: http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/national-origin.html#VI http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/national-origin.html#VI It happens all the time, of course.
  - philwelch 17y ago
    National origin and citizenship, you're right. But when it comes to immigration status, I've always had the "are you eligible to work in the United States?" question asked of me for every job I've applied to.
    - lutorm 17y ago
      Yeah, companies are now required to verify work eligibility for their employees.
    - ajju 17y ago
      It is not illegal to discriminate on the basis of immigration status. In fact "Sorry, we can't hire anyone other than citizens and permanent residents" is so common a response, it's usually part of the job ad itself.
geebee 17y ago
Good article. The EE Phd mentioned in the beginning sounds like a very skilled person, and it's hard to replace someone like that. Hard to see how that guy is taking a job away from anyone, and he is likely creating wealth and jobs for others. We want him here, no doubt. One factor - I was once a PhD student in engineering at Berkeley, and in my opinion, it's much a harder path than a JD or MBA, more uncertainty and lower pay. While the "100K" salary the EE PhD in the article was earning isn't bad, it's actually quite low compared to other professional degrees that can be earned in half or even a third of the time (with less rigorous undergrad preparation to boot). To me, there's little doubt that universities and employers use the desire for a green card to keep these spots filled without becoming "competitive" with other professional degree programs (the RAND institute recently did a study that supports this view). What to do? Well, maybe we should just set a minimum pay rate for a green card. Perhaps a company needs to commit to a high salary to prove the worker really is highly skilled. Given that starting salaries at top law firms exceed $150 for a three year degree, I don't think that 100K is quite enough for the company to claim that the worker is "critical" and "can't be found anywhere". So I think this salary threshold needs to be very, very high. If they were paying him 200K, I'd have no trouble granting the green card, because then the absence of americans would be easier to attribute to a "skills gap" rather than a desire to pay salaries that are not competitive with other (often easier) career choices.
- chime 17y ago
  > So I think this salary threshold needs to be very, very high. Anytime you link a legal requirement to salary levels, you end up with geographic cost-of-living disparities. 100K in NYC/SF is no big deal, 100K in Clearwater, Florida is. A person who can easily get a greencard in NYC can't do so in Florida. This makes the law unfair to states with lower cost-of-living because employers cannot hire and keep skilled employees even when they are willing to pay very competitive rates.
  - raghus 17y ago
    A person who can easily get a greencard in NYC can't do so in Florida. This makes the law unfair to states with lower cost-of-living ... chime - why would it be easier to get a GC in NY as opposed to FL? How then is FL at a disadvantage because of the salary rules?
flooha 17y ago
It's anecdotal, but my wife moved here 1.5 years ago and before she quit her job to move here with me, she was a Global Application Manager for DHL International (Deutsche Post). She was responsible for a team of software engineers and support technicians whose app was installed in 9 countries, at 20 locations all over the world. She has expertise in Oracle and is fluent in Spanish as well as English. The software controlls automotive sequencing (just in time part delivery) for Chrysler, Volkswagen, Seat, Ford, and GM where the supplier can be charged > $10,000 per minute of downtime. We met through work and she was always the person who could be counted on to troubleshoot any issue even outside her area of expertise. In one and a half years, she has had two interviews and no offers. It's pretty clear that her resume is almost immediately rejected because she isn't a U.S. citizen (she's a permanent resident) and because her experience is with "foreign" companies.
- gaius 17y ago
  Where in the US are you?
  - flooha 17y ago
    Toledo, OH. The automotive industry is taking a hit around here, but she has applied all over the country.
    - a2tech 17y ago
      Come on up to Ann Arbor-there's loads of oppertunities here. UofM is expanding and we've got a best of breed engineering school going on
- TallGuyShort 17y ago
  I've had the opposite experience, actually. Being a permanent resident usually sparks a short conversation during the interview about the difference in educational systems and my life experience - usually I've felt that the conversation was a factor in a successful interview. edit: but then again, I haven't had much work experience outside of the US, and due to very different management styles in the US and elsewhere, that may be a key difference in our situations.
Mintz 17y ago
This really bothers me. It's like the U.S. is a football team, and we train one of these immigrants; we make them hit the gym, show them the ropes, teach them the intracacies of the game, let them know some good techniques, then say, "Now get out of here, we don't want you to play for our team."
- eugenejen 17y ago
  At the other hand, the law makers can say that this is how we intend to make all countries around the world to be as good as United States by giving their brains back. We are spreading Lord's wisdom and grace to everyone on earth by being altruistic.
  - Mintz 17y ago
    Yeah, I can see how you're spinning it to be a positive thing, but when you hear how these guys are getting frustrated, I don't think this is quite what they want to hear.
    - eugenejen 17y ago
      Now you get my joke. You see how ridiculous the feeling is! Unfortunately immigration is the thing that politicians either don't know anything about it or don't care about anything about it. Because until immigrants naturalize themselves as citizens, immigrants have no voting right and politicians have no use of immigrants (Of course politicians may still want immigrants to donate hard earned money to their campaign fund under corporate names)
  - barrkel 17y ago
    But in many cases, it's throwing them back to a relative wilderness, where much of their training is of little use. The density of excellence, the concentration of experts in a physical area, can make a significant difference to getting something new off the ground.
onreact-com 17y ago
The brain drain from developing countries was aggravating their problems. Now as the the US struggles itself those nations that need experts the most can keep them.
anon12345 17y ago
I left the US because I finally got fed up of the treatment of anyone foreign - I was working at a top US university on an international project, but every time I returned from a conference or field work I had to convince some not finished high school rent-a-cop at immigration that I was allowed back in. I wasn't allowed on field work in the US because the research plane flying the experiment and equipment I designed had the door to the cockpit open - and as a foreigner I couldn't get airport security clearance to be on such a flight. The bioscience people left the US long ago for countries where 4000year old mythology didn't dictate what you could work on, the physical scientists are going now. Still if you get rid of all the immigrants the US will be a world leader in beaded blankets and feather headresses.
- me-too 17y ago
  Similar story - back in the 90s it was next to impossible to work on an international scientific project with the USA because scientist working in US universities had to apply for the same green card quota as MS/Intel/Google etc. This year apparently it's much easier to get a green card but the feeling in academia is that it just isn't worth the hassle. In my field (nuclear physics), except for some weapons projects, it's becoming a bit of a scientific backwater.
  - frossie 17y ago
    because scientist working in US universities had to apply for the same green card quota as MS/Intel/Google This doesn't mesh with my experience. They had to work within the same H1-B quota as the commercial sector. I agree that this is a serious problem in research institutions that are not affiliated with a university (universities can issue J visas for their visiting scientists and thus bypass the H1-B quota). Green cards are different in that there is a fast track for people with world-class scientific expertise. It is possible to get a green card in under a year in that category. That said, that doesn't help people in the commercial sector who are just as equally valuable to the brain trust, which was the point of the article. I think the US would benefit from a points-based immigration system like Canada and Australia have. That way you can qualify for residency independently from your employer's whim, and the government can manipulate the point value of different skills to fill holes in expertise.
Leon 17y ago
So where are immigrants concentrating themselves if not the US? I am not looking for the response, 'They are going home,' but surely the intelligentsia is concentrating in some area so where is it? Is it just that the distribution is more even with respect to country (in which case the US would still be the lead) or is there a new, hot area (maybe parts of europe)?
- potatolicious 17y ago
  I think that immigration to Canada is still on the rise. I can't source it, but I think I heard that immigration to Canada from American citizens has tripled in the last few years... As an educated professional with a college degree and whatnot, and one who speaks fluent English (or French), entry into Canada is almost a no-brainer under the skilled workforce immigration policy. This is really an attitude thing. In the beginning the US was the place to be, so as non-Americans we all put up with the rampant bullshit you had to go through to get in the door. Now, there are choices, and the xenophobic attitude and the circus-like hoops you have to jump through to get in are no longer as attractive. Not to mention that the US is now dealing with some major social changes (read: problems) that other countries have managed to avoid... health care for one...
  - ajju 17y ago
    Actually Canada actively recruits US immigrants. Send an email about H-1B visas using Gmail and soon you'll see an ad on the top saying something like "Stuck in an H1B visa? Canada will give you an expedited residency if you are a qualified immigrant". And it's goes to a Canadian govt. website with a form asking for your phone number. THEY contact YOU! If I could bear the cold I'd skoot over to Toronto in the blink of an eye.
    - potatolicious 17y ago
      To be fair, get ready for a rude income shock. I am one of the (few?) Canadians who recently came to the US to work. Why? Honestly, because I got an offer that was double what any Canadian company was willing to offer me. Software in Canada is second class - salaries are nowhere near the US levels, and much of the work is "scrap" from Americans. Everywhere I look in Canada I see satellite offices to large American software companies. Invariably these offices do the boring, mundane code that nobody wants to pay $150K to a Californian to do. That's what I mean when I say "scrap" - monkey work, not real dev. It's hard to find a Canadian shop that writes real, meaningful code.
tokenadult 17y ago
Is this situation better in other countries? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=726097 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=726097
ajju 17y ago
I am jumping through hoops right now so that I can work for a startup based on technology I developed (that has already created 3 jobs). It's pretty frustrating.
pjvandehaar 17y ago
I think a way to improve the situation would be to change the way income-tax scales. To citizens, it increases percentage as wage increases, scaling exponentially. To foreigners, it could scale sub-linear-ly, by lowering percentage as wage increases. This would encourage foreigners to take high-paying jobs in the US, but not low-paying ones. Also: http://paulgraham.com/foundervisa.html http://paulgraham.com/foundervisa.html

63 points by raju 17y ago

bwd 17y ago

Maybe Obama will be smart enough to start handing out green cards to anybody with an H1B who can hold a permanent position for two years. I'd much rather employ somebody who's motivated enough to leave their home country in search of opportunity.

jimbokun 17y ago
That helps you, but does it help Obama (assuming Obama's goal is to get re-elected) or the median U.S. voter?
- mquander 17y ago
  In the long run, one might suspect that it helps most workers (being part of the economy in general) to have a larger pool of skilled labor doing productive work.
- roc 17y ago
  Obama will be painted as weak-on-immigration by the right regardless. So there's no up-side to him ignoring the larger immigration problem or H1B in particular. (H1B should be a short path to a green card. Letting them be taken advantage of and then sending them home is a bad policy.)
ajju 17y ago
It's unlikely. Most democrats oppose this (protectionism) and many republicans oppose it as well (anti-immigration stance). It's lose-lose for immigrants.
- bwd 17y ago
  Regardless of whether politicians "support" it, I expect that most of them know that it's really good for the country in the long term. That's why I said that I hope Obama, who's been all about change, will have the brains (and the balls) to actually do the right thing.

jimbokun 17y ago

'Senator Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), chairman of the Senate immigration subcommittee, said in June that U.S. policy will aim to "encourage the world's best and brightest individuals to come to the U.S. and create the new technologies and businesses…but must discourage businesses from using our immigration laws as a means to obtain temporary and less expensive foreign labor."' I'm curious for the opinion of Hacker News readers on Schumer's statement. Do you agree or disagree that this should be the goal for U.S. immigration policy? (and why)

biohacker42 17y ago
I'm not sure you can be for or against it, because it doesn't make much sense. How are you going to decide if a businesses is hiring the best or the cheaper? Isn't best a function of price? Aren't all business trying to maximize profits?
- DrJokepu 17y ago
  A law prohibiting employers to hire foreigners for a salary under the median income of US citizen professionals of similar profession and experience in the same area would probably do it.
  - lutorm 17y ago
    There is such a law. H-1B holders must be paid "prevailing wage" for the positions they are being hired for.
patio11 17y ago
I'd sell Green Cards, with a portion of the fee going into a background check (more to buy off the Republican Party than anything else). I think about $50k is fair, but you could calibrate the number as desired. Heck, if you want, impose a quota, issue securities entitling the bearer to one green card, and then auction them like T-bills. Transferable or non-transferable, your call. This system is easy to understand, transparent, and offers certainty that the patchwork quilt of immigration statuses does not. You'd hear a lot less whinging from the nativist set if they were automatically $50k less expensive than the next guy. This would essentially eliminate any abuse of (legal) foreign labor, as employers would no longer hold any particular power over the fates of their employees, other than the usual ones accorded by contract law. (I can see Microsoft or whomever offering to foot the bill if they were guaranteed 3 years of service, and have absolutely no problem with that arrangement.) It would also be easier for desirable foreign laborers to interface with. Believe me, I can tell you from personal experience, NOTHING scares me like a routine visit to get my visa renewed. It is the only time when I am ever totally at the mercy of a clerk who has a Destroy My Life button on his computer. Folks trying to fit an extended stay in the US into their near-term life plans must have similar emotions. This would quiet them. Pay the license fee. Get the green card. Simple, easy, fullproof. Besides, you can essentially buy your way around immigration laws anyhow, so we might as well be honest about it.

nico 17y ago

I have a friend who studied Business (with a concentration on Entrepreneurship) at Notre Dame (2nd best in Business according to BusinessWeek). While at Notre Dame he could not get decent internships at big companies because these companies either had a policy to not hire foreigners (at least not for internships), or because it was such a hassle that they'd rather not. Many of those companies were also in the process of shutting down their "immigration departments" because it's become increasingly difficult to get visas for their foreign workers, hence for them it's pretty much like playing the lottery when they apply for an H1B visa for one of their workers, and having dedicated staff for this very uncertain process is a big cost. While finishing school, my friend was unable to secure a job with any company, he had an offer from PWC, but it was finally withdrawn, while his friends were hired. At the end he decided coming back to Chile, where he now has a job at one of the top VCs in the country. This is only one case, but I think it represents what a lot of immigrants in the US have been experiencing.

kragen 17y ago
In the US it is supposed to be illegal to discriminate in hiring on the basis of national origin, which sometimes prohibits discrimination on the basis of citizenship: http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/national-origin.html#VI http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/national-origin.html#VI It happens all the time, of course.
- philwelch 17y ago
  National origin and citizenship, you're right. But when it comes to immigration status, I've always had the "are you eligible to work in the United States?" question asked of me for every job I've applied to.
  - lutorm 17y ago
    Yeah, companies are now required to verify work eligibility for their employees.
  - ajju 17y ago
    It is not illegal to discriminate on the basis of immigration status. In fact "Sorry, we can't hire anyone other than citizens and permanent residents" is so common a response, it's usually part of the job ad itself.

geebee 17y ago

Good article. The EE Phd mentioned in the beginning sounds like a very skilled person, and it's hard to replace someone like that. Hard to see how that guy is taking a job away from anyone, and he is likely creating wealth and jobs for others. We want him here, no doubt. One factor - I was once a PhD student in engineering at Berkeley, and in my opinion, it's much a harder path than a JD or MBA, more uncertainty and lower pay. While the "100K" salary the EE PhD in the article was earning isn't bad, it's actually quite low compared to other professional degrees that can be earned in half or even a third of the time (with less rigorous undergrad preparation to boot). To me, there's little doubt that universities and employers use the desire for a green card to keep these spots filled without becoming "competitive" with other professional degree programs (the RAND institute recently did a study that supports this view). What to do? Well, maybe we should just set a minimum pay rate for a green card. Perhaps a company needs to commit to a high salary to prove the worker really is highly skilled. Given that starting salaries at top law firms exceed $150 for a three year degree, I don't think that 100K is quite enough for the company to claim that the worker is "critical" and "can't be found anywhere". So I think this salary threshold needs to be very, very high. If they were paying him 200K, I'd have no trouble granting the green card, because then the absence of americans would be easier to attribute to a "skills gap" rather than a desire to pay salaries that are not competitive with other (often easier) career choices.

chime 17y ago
> So I think this salary threshold needs to be very, very high. Anytime you link a legal requirement to salary levels, you end up with geographic cost-of-living disparities. 100K in NYC/SF is no big deal, 100K in Clearwater, Florida is. A person who can easily get a greencard in NYC can't do so in Florida. This makes the law unfair to states with lower cost-of-living because employers cannot hire and keep skilled employees even when they are willing to pay very competitive rates.
- raghus 17y ago
  A person who can easily get a greencard in NYC can't do so in Florida. This makes the law unfair to states with lower cost-of-living ... chime - why would it be easier to get a GC in NY as opposed to FL? How then is FL at a disadvantage because of the salary rules?

flooha 17y ago

It's anecdotal, but my wife moved here 1.5 years ago and before she quit her job to move here with me, she was a Global Application Manager for DHL International (Deutsche Post). She was responsible for a team of software engineers and support technicians whose app was installed in 9 countries, at 20 locations all over the world. She has expertise in Oracle and is fluent in Spanish as well as English. The software controlls automotive sequencing (just in time part delivery) for Chrysler, Volkswagen, Seat, Ford, and GM where the supplier can be charged > $10,000 per minute of downtime. We met through work and she was always the person who could be counted on to troubleshoot any issue even outside her area of expertise. In one and a half years, she has had two interviews and no offers. It's pretty clear that her resume is almost immediately rejected because she isn't a U.S. citizen (she's a permanent resident) and because her experience is with "foreign" companies.

gaius 17y ago
Where in the US are you?
- flooha 17y ago
  Toledo, OH. The automotive industry is taking a hit around here, but she has applied all over the country.
  - a2tech 17y ago
    Come on up to Ann Arbor-there's loads of oppertunities here. UofM is expanding and we've got a best of breed engineering school going on
TallGuyShort 17y ago
I've had the opposite experience, actually. Being a permanent resident usually sparks a short conversation during the interview about the difference in educational systems and my life experience - usually I've felt that the conversation was a factor in a successful interview. edit: but then again, I haven't had much work experience outside of the US, and due to very different management styles in the US and elsewhere, that may be a key difference in our situations.

Mintz 17y ago

This really bothers me. It's like the U.S. is a football team, and we train one of these immigrants; we make them hit the gym, show them the ropes, teach them the intracacies of the game, let them know some good techniques, then say, "Now get out of here, we don't want you to play for our team."

eugenejen 17y ago
At the other hand, the law makers can say that this is how we intend to make all countries around the world to be as good as United States by giving their brains back. We are spreading Lord's wisdom and grace to everyone on earth by being altruistic.
- Mintz 17y ago
  Yeah, I can see how you're spinning it to be a positive thing, but when you hear how these guys are getting frustrated, I don't think this is quite what they want to hear.
  - eugenejen 17y ago
    Now you get my joke. You see how ridiculous the feeling is! Unfortunately immigration is the thing that politicians either don't know anything about it or don't care about anything about it. Because until immigrants naturalize themselves as citizens, immigrants have no voting right and politicians have no use of immigrants (Of course politicians may still want immigrants to donate hard earned money to their campaign fund under corporate names)
- barrkel 17y ago
  But in many cases, it's throwing them back to a relative wilderness, where much of their training is of little use. The density of excellence, the concentration of experts in a physical area, can make a significant difference to getting something new off the ground.

onreact-com 17y ago

The brain drain from developing countries was aggravating their problems. Now as the the US struggles itself those nations that need experts the most can keep them.

anon12345 17y ago

I left the US because I finally got fed up of the treatment of anyone foreign - I was working at a top US university on an international project, but every time I returned from a conference or field work I had to convince some not finished high school rent-a-cop at immigration that I was allowed back in. I wasn't allowed on field work in the US because the research plane flying the experiment and equipment I designed had the door to the cockpit open - and as a foreigner I couldn't get airport security clearance to be on such a flight. The bioscience people left the US long ago for countries where 4000year old mythology didn't dictate what you could work on, the physical scientists are going now. Still if you get rid of all the immigrants the US will be a world leader in beaded blankets and feather headresses.

me-too 17y ago
Similar story - back in the 90s it was next to impossible to work on an international scientific project with the USA because scientist working in US universities had to apply for the same green card quota as MS/Intel/Google etc. This year apparently it's much easier to get a green card but the feeling in academia is that it just isn't worth the hassle. In my field (nuclear physics), except for some weapons projects, it's becoming a bit of a scientific backwater.
- frossie 17y ago
  because scientist working in US universities had to apply for the same green card quota as MS/Intel/Google This doesn't mesh with my experience. They had to work within the same H1-B quota as the commercial sector. I agree that this is a serious problem in research institutions that are not affiliated with a university (universities can issue J visas for their visiting scientists and thus bypass the H1-B quota). Green cards are different in that there is a fast track for people with world-class scientific expertise. It is possible to get a green card in under a year in that category. That said, that doesn't help people in the commercial sector who are just as equally valuable to the brain trust, which was the point of the article. I think the US would benefit from a points-based immigration system like Canada and Australia have. That way you can qualify for residency independently from your employer's whim, and the government can manipulate the point value of different skills to fill holes in expertise.

Leon 17y ago

So where are immigrants concentrating themselves if not the US? I am not looking for the response, 'They are going home,' but surely the intelligentsia is concentrating in some area so where is it? Is it just that the distribution is more even with respect to country (in which case the US would still be the lead) or is there a new, hot area (maybe parts of europe)?

potatolicious 17y ago
I think that immigration to Canada is still on the rise. I can't source it, but I think I heard that immigration to Canada from American citizens has tripled in the last few years... As an educated professional with a college degree and whatnot, and one who speaks fluent English (or French), entry into Canada is almost a no-brainer under the skilled workforce immigration policy. This is really an attitude thing. In the beginning the US was the place to be, so as non-Americans we all put up with the rampant bullshit you had to go through to get in the door. Now, there are choices, and the xenophobic attitude and the circus-like hoops you have to jump through to get in are no longer as attractive. Not to mention that the US is now dealing with some major social changes (read: problems) that other countries have managed to avoid... health care for one...
- ajju 17y ago
  Actually Canada actively recruits US immigrants. Send an email about H-1B visas using Gmail and soon you'll see an ad on the top saying something like "Stuck in an H1B visa? Canada will give you an expedited residency if you are a qualified immigrant". And it's goes to a Canadian govt. website with a form asking for your phone number. THEY contact YOU! If I could bear the cold I'd skoot over to Toronto in the blink of an eye.
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    To be fair, get ready for a rude income shock. I am one of the (few?) Canadians who recently came to the US to work. Why? Honestly, because I got an offer that was double what any Canadian company was willing to offer me. Software in Canada is second class - salaries are nowhere near the US levels, and much of the work is "scrap" from Americans. Everywhere I look in Canada I see satellite offices to large American software companies. Invariably these offices do the boring, mundane code that nobody wants to pay $150K to a Californian to do. That's what I mean when I say "scrap" - monkey work, not real dev. It's hard to find a Canadian shop that writes real, meaningful code.

tokenadult 17y ago

Is this situation better in other countries? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=726097 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=726097

ajju 17y ago

I am jumping through hoops right now so that I can work for a startup based on technology I developed (that has already created 3 jobs). It's pretty frustrating.

pjvandehaar 17y ago

I think a way to improve the situation would be to change the way income-tax scales. To citizens, it increases percentage as wage increases, scaling exponentially. To foreigners, it could scale sub-linear-ly, by lowering percentage as wage increases. This would encourage foreigners to take high-paying jobs in the US, but not low-paying ones. Also: http://paulgraham.com/foundervisa.html http://paulgraham.com/foundervisa.html